donaldseadog

I'm in favour of anything that improves realism and/or gives AI a better chance. Related to this, one thing I notice with supersonic aircraft in particular is that if you make a direction change and go from cruise to burner you get up to speed instantly but delay in turn.

The refuel-demo.dll is just a quick demo that started from a library file used to investigate what the GE was doing with refuel events. Once the next version of the game engine comes out the refuel-demo.dll will be deleted from downloads. The new GE will handle multiple refuels internally. With the refuel-demo.dll, tankers should still automatically get sent home after the last refuel is completed and the tanker available fuel is less than 200 nm. Remember that there is a time lag between the event occuring and the 'finish' of refuelling. Problems do occur in the dll if the refuelling tanker unit is removed before the auto RTB. The demo isn't intended as a long term tool. lazGUI.dll is itself a tool to investigate what is happening and to demonstrate to dll library file programmers how to do tasks more than to be used in a game for game purposes. I'm currently doing an extension to give more information on specific events and Tony (the author) keeps it up to date with changes in how the export_dll functions, so in that respect it will get more function. In time once the next GE is released I'll probably work on a stand alone or addition to my toolbox with further enhancements for refuelling and these will be more complete in function for game play. Hope that explains it, Don

Hi Alex The best way I've found to extend the range is to have two or more (as needed) separate tanker units in the main group or to send a group that is tankers only along the same path as the main group (also with a tanker). With the separate tanker ony group you may have to set the speeds so that both groups fly in close proximity.

I don't know what's going on there Eric, I'll have a look and see what I've done wrong.

Hi Eric, I think I can see the problem but as this is more a tool for looking at refuelling, and will be obsolete soon, I won't fix it. I have uploaded a latter version which still has this problem but is easier to use. The problem is that the tanker is removed while there is a refuelling event pending in memory but I don't take out the event so when it comes around the GE is trying to make references to a unit that no longer exists (This is my best guess). Normally this is handled fine by the GE but we have gone beyond where it works by continuing the refuels. Solution: instead of doing a manual split use the refuel dll, click "pause to investigate" (left mid of module window), click on the group refuel event in left panel, in the spin boxes to the mid right: reduce the available fuel to less than 200, adjust the 'unit' for queue position 0 to '255' ensure 'refuelling' is 1, click 'set'. optionally adjust the event time to current time + 1 and hit return key, then hit 'resume' This should do a GE controlled split of the tankers. hint re the spin box, once you hit one of the adjuster arrows you can enter the new number by key entry. For the event time, after adjustment hit the enter key, for the other adjustments hit the "set" button to write them to memory.

It was an intentional change to centralize the fuel stuff in effect 21. Sorry I didn't get 2015.008 out this weekend. Scenario Start DateTime is kicking my butt, I hate timezones not to mention daylight savings time! Plus my 2-year old has forgotten how to fall asleep on his own so we keep him company instead of getting stuff done at night. HCE - 2015.005 - 2015-05-28 ========================== - Chg:0000 GE Moved decrementing of aircraft fuel from Display.c MoveUnits to Staff.c CheckGroupFuel so that it can be replaced in ExportDLLs via HCEffect21. That'll teach me for not reading all the changes.

Eric, I'll guess that the problem is in the A2Ademo.dll. It isn't thorough in checking for situations that are 'unexpected'. I'm assuming you manually split off the tankers (which you should be able to do) and the dll was then trying to look at something that no longer existed. Tony is working up a new GE that will handle all of this so these sorts of thing will disappear. For the short term I'll have a look and see if I can come up with something, my best guess is to fiddle the refuelling event data so the tankers are ready to go home by normal means - which of the two A2ArefuelDemo versions did you use?

I've just noticed that using lazeffects with effect 21 set to override and do nothing, using GE 2015.007, planes seem to not use any fuel. I expected that fuel usage would still be calculated and decremented with effect 21 turned off (but that refuelling wouldn't auto start), which should it be?

I love these bits: - Chg:0000 GE Saved game file version incremented to accomodate storing per-side, per-group category (Ship, Sub, Land) flags indicating whether the AI should leave the scenario's plotted paths to pursue contacts. The default is to pursue contacts. - Chg:0000 GE If the Scenario Author chose AI settings so that the AI won't set a new course to intercept targets, the GE will now adhere to those settings. - Chg:0000 SE Allow the Scenario Designer to use the AI Settings menu to choose which categories of AI groups should be able to change course in pursuit of detections. and of course the air refuelling stuff. I've been having a lot of fun doing little scenarios with very distant air operations. In the back of my mind I have the AI being able to split off a fighter from a refuelled group, make an intercept and return to rejoin and refuel.

These are great changes! They pretty much give us what we've always needed in refuelling. I missed that lazeffects was on SVN, I'll grab that and once I relearn the new refuelling think about what, if anything, would be nice to add as an external management function. If the spare time isn't expended, exposure to loadouts and speed against throttle in the airrec data would come in handy

FuelToOffload field added to THCAirRec in uHCTypeDefs and checked in to SVN. The catch is that the field is only available in game version 2015.008 and newer so you may want to delay grabbing this change until I get 2015.008 out. FuelToOffload: LongInt; // ALE 20150611 HC2015.008+ fuel left in tanker in nm You must have found some spare time being able to tinker with the mechanism that has fuel available/ no fuel available would be good too Have we got exportDLL access to switching the new effect #21 ? With the amount of work you've done I'm thinking we can do the whole management externally. (back to the drawing board )

Periodic for sure, refueling being a risky operation it isn't done just to keep everyone topped up. Different altitudes is above my pay grade though my gut says tankers are only going to stay with groups of planes for any length of time when doing a long transit so they may as well stay in the same altitude band. I'll try to get a delay in the extended refuelling, at present what I have created is a near continuous refuelling once refuelling starts. This might let us get some where useful without needing to do the GE code changes to provide exportDLL with the necessary info to completely control it externally. I still need to look at red play, but I did look at AI playing red and if missions with tankers are set up in the scenario they seem to be running OK.

In real life what would be the norm for a cruising plane group including aerotanker - near continuous top up of fuel tanks or periodic top up? would some units fly at different altitudes and then fly up/down to the tanker when their turn for fuel?

attached is a zip with game save, ge.log and text comments including a run down of data I collected in game. game is NACV EC2003 with HCDB140909 using GE 2015.007 while the fuel allocation figures are closely consistent they aren't the same, the main things to me seem that the GE recalcs fuel allocation at the time of executing the refuel irrespective of what is in the 'event' data (queued before hand) and that the ge.log is stating a cruise range which is quite different to what the in game unit report is giving. This difference, if wrong in the GE calculations could be the/part of the reason for the over fuel supply (fuel range after refuelling is usually significant;y more than cruise range from takeoff). this test is a single F14A TARPS and F14D tanker, a similar test with F16/F14A/F14D was similar Don refuelreport_F14.zip

I'm assuming at the moment we should concentrate on playing blue and not getting concerned about what red is doing, is this right as I had a bit of a look playing red and things didn't seem to be happening quite right?

The refuel dll have been written mostlly to see what was happening and trial modifying the data to see what we can get away with. The game gets paused at certain times to let you make changes or to just let it run - when it pauses you need to hit the 'resume' button. In the second version of the dll you can let it run by 'unbclicking' the 'auto pause' button and it should go thru cycles updating the available fuel until it get to a low level then the tanker will do the normal requext to return to base. There is definitely a hickup if you fly your group to far without a full tanker waiting on the way home. A problem to look at at some time once other stuff is going well I think. Another hurdle is to be able to split a tanker that still has available fuel then re join and get more refuels, I've tried doing this by leaving a recipient (fighter escort) in the group and this seems to let you get by and I guess for the short term is OK as an escort isn't a bad idea. I've done some tests with F/A 18Es (mixed loadouts including tankers) and it is very easy to get the group far enough out that the none of the aircraft can make bak to base without tankders posted some where on the return route. This raises a question as to whether we want the dll to work out all of that (a bit hard as the player I assume will often station tankers for the return leg) or put the fuel managment in the hands of the player? Also worth noting I havn't made any filtering of 'side' so if you have enemy tankers in use you';; see them coming up and seemingly taking advantage of the multiple refuels. This could allow scenario writers to put up some longer range intercepts. Thanks for putting in some testing this is all at the outer edge (a bit beyond) my ability so testing by others is very helpful. Thanks also to Tony for spending time on it and doing GE edits - I've always wanted to get a good refuelling happening as I think it adds a lot to the strategic challenge.

I only wonder what the real situation is? I'd guess you can refuel say an F/A 18E that is flying in tanker load out? I can refuel a tanker from the modified lazgui.dll and it causes no problems. It does I suppose start to get a bit tricky regards having enough fuel for the tankers to get back to base in some situations.

I don't think I'd like a group comprising more than 16 units, but that's not a good reason not to be able to. The array length is predefined though so maybe it was a decision due to that consideration.

This change will undoubtedly be handy in the future but at present I'm getting along using the standard auto refuelling but switching actual refuelling on and off as required at strategic points of a group refuel cycle. I've just uploaded a rough tool (modified Tony's lazGUI dll) to show how I intend to proceed initially. I think it will take me a while to get the current mental arithmetic and filtering into code, plus write a new interface, so I thought I'd put this up for people to play with and perhaps come up with inspiration on desirable features.

making some good progress at least so far as finding what can easily be done. So far I've been able to manipulate in a refuel: the fuel transfer amounts, which units receive fuel and the order; refuel other tankers and refuel multiple times from the one tanker (see attached jpg and note the refuelling episodes about an hour apart from the same tanker unit to two strike units. I have to decide on some calculations for updating available fuel after each transfer, how to get the whole thing started, how to prevent 'cheating' and an interface.

So is Effect #20 only dealing with refuelling or, once turned off from GE, will other matters have to be dealt with externally too?

For multiple tankers, so long as they are not in the same unit, then there is the possibility of getting fuel from one tanker at a time. One of the features I put into my tool box allows you to easily split off a given number of planes from a unit and then rejoin (thru the set course for new group standard game feature) . This is what I do if I want to get multiple refuels from say two kc-135s. I think a more more powerful refueling controller would be written using exportDLLs although I haven't looked at it more than a glance to see that the function is there. Don

I was part thru my second time around on V1 (but self imposed limit of blue resources) - I think I'll ditch that and dive straight into V2.

I've still not completed but in hind site starting at pause and thoroughly going over assets would make life a lot easier (especially for the poor helo and C130 pilots). CV32's comments about the long range bombers are what I'm now seeing, the job is a bit too easy and the red carrier group got wiped out pretty much in the time it tok the torpedoes to run their course. Great to get a new scenario and SO GREAT to have a 32 bit SE looking good.

Just to add some humour, and illustrate some problems in getting it perfect, I remember one time picking up three contacts very close to each other but some distance away, turned out to be a super tanker