Some great suggestions here on new, useful submarine entries.

 

Especially as we have plenty of room in the Submarines Annex (but always keep in mind that the Mounts Annex continues to shrink too, and is catching up to the Loadouts Annex in this regard).

 

Also, a reminder that I need sources for any information you suggest be incorporated.

Thanks for the good reception of the proposed submarine entries, Brad

About the sources: basically the motivation was my old research in the Harpoon Gold Edition and previous computer or paper rules editons, were I included a lot of submarines or variant of submarines 1980-1991.

The sources are from the 1990-1991 Edition of the Data Annex (We have a lot more of data and details nowadays ..., in one of the suplements or original rules they were ONLY two types of soviet torpedoes: "Type 53" and "Type 40" ) to the current White Ensign and High Tide supplements, passing by the two editions of the South Atlantic War.

All that jazz complemented with Conway's 1947-1995, Jane's 2005 (I hope next I will receive a copy from a second-hand retailer of Jane's 2002 and 1982 ... and 1940, but I think they are not very detailed books ).

Other old and seminal Salamander books cited on Harpagamer in other posts, World Naval Weapons Systems of Naval Institute Press, other curious books about naval guns as Naval Guns, 500 Years of Ship and Coastal Artillery by Hans Mehl, or a pair of superb books by Christopher Chant near 1991, the recent year of most classes of boats in service: Small Craft Navies and Sea Forces of The World.

Also, even the worst or strangest book can have some rare details about everything (The Failures and Repercussions of Naval Design and Construction 1860 to the Present Day. The World's Worst Warships by Anthony Preston can be an easy example).

 

And we can't forget the web. Most of the data in Wikipedia are extracted of the books cited, but the Wikipedia is very useful sometimes for fast cross-checking data and for in service and decommissining dates). Navweaps is a must for guns, and is based in metanalysis of published date in almost every book we know. http://www.navweaps.com

And ever sometimes the worst or doubtiful redacted web site has scarce, very detailed or rare data (We can remember the splendid sites about the Oklahoma City or Girodyne Helicopters, as example of detailed and rare data site, as Talos or Weapon Alpha, of course, not of bad web site ).

http://www.okieboat.com/

http://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/

And as example of irregular sites with rare data:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050309221955/...al/e_noise.html (explanation in a future separated post).

http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Boats/BoatDB2/index.php

http://www.britsub.net/

 

Other times we can obtain data of long time consuming analysis of the pictures, ship positioning and refits and text of sites as Navysite.de, Navysource.org or Gonavy.jp (sometimes bad dated in tens of years, beware !) ... someday I will write about the Knoxes ...

http://www.navsource.org/

http://www.navysite.de/

http://gonavy.jp/

And never forget the Russian sites, they are on-line translators for not translated sites:

http://www.online-translator.com/

http://russian-ships.info/eng/

http://www.submarine.id.ru/sub.php?945

http://www.deepstorm.ru/

http://ruspodlodka.narod.ru/plark.htm

 

And at last we need use some informed guesses, based on the refit dates obtained sometimes on web sites of the old ship complements, and in the in service and out of service dates of the weapon systems.

 

About the shortage of mounts ... I see, but I think we have almost every possible mount now on this time period in the DB, and the 2016 for the next DB is near us

I think we don't will need a lot of new "old" mounts in the resting surface ships from 2011 to 2015, and from 1980 to 1991, only perhaps a few new or old missile mounts and a few more submarine mounts, but I will be cautious in my proposed platforms

Great ! Thanks, Brad by the HCDB-111103 version of the DB, I was also thinking the last days in old version of the US cruisers ... (And in more submarines, the next time .... )

I have a question about magazine load outs for certain mounts. I'm looking through and the American ships, I notice there are no reloads for either the CIWS or RAM. Is this because there are no reloads carried, or something else? Doesn't make sense to have reloads for the Sea Sparrows, but no reloads for either of the other two systems. Just an observation.

I have a question about magazine load outs for certain mounts. I'm looking through and the American ships, I notice there are no reloads for either the CIWS or RAM. Is this because there are no reloads carried, or something else? Doesn't make sense to have reloads for the Sea Sparrows, but no reloads for either of the other two systems. Just an observation.

 

I'm overhauling the gun magazines, including CIWS.

 

Re RAM, I have yet to see any reliable info on reloads carried (if any).

About the HCDB-111103 (Thanks!) some very minor errors:

- F-4C Phantom lacks the IRST.

- Ticonderoga (83) entry 3439 has duplicated number (four) of 127mm guns.

- Spelling error on entry 3442 Wielingen (1982) and entry 2862 Drazki (Wielingen), is write as Weilingen (is a problem only editing the DB, it was very diffult to trace where was the new Wielingen with the search option of Access!).

 

 

About the WM20 series/Mk92 radar (in the egg-shaped radome), is also SS capable.

For years I was using the very similar Snow Drift radar to simulate it on the DB.

Now with the real thing in the DB we can use it on a very large number of ships:

 

http://minus.com/ldmoue

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-R...ernational.html

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-N...etherlands.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4S3h8j_...dar&f=false

Some minor considerations about Iranian ships:

 

The Kaman class (late), entry 2811, lacks the ship names.

The Kaman class (early), entry 2440, should be equipped with Decca 1226 and WM20 series radar, not Chinese radars, also perhaps with a SA-7 MANPADS, not a SA-7 team.

 

The Saam (Vosper Mk5), entry 2420, would add for historical scenarios the ship named Sahand, sunked in 1988.

 

Also, I think the original Harpoon Gold DB forerunner of the present DB was frozen in the earlies 1990s, but deleting a lot of ship names decommissioned between the first Harpoon Classic iterations and the earlies 1990s (as the forementioned Saam or in the British Leander FFs). We can re-introduce those ship names for the time period 1980-199X, but it will be a long work …

Also, I think the original Harpoon Gold DB forerunner of the present DB was frozen in the earlies 1990s, but deleting a lot of ship names decommissioned between the first Harpoon Classic iterations and the earlies 1990s (as the forementioned Saam or in the British Leander FFs). We can re-introduce those ship names for the time period 1980-199X, but it will be a long work …

 

I did much of the HC Gold database work, but your memory might be better than mine on what has changed, heh.

 

In any event, just back from a few days' moose hunting, and I will take a look at your notes and suggestions. Thanks as usual.

About the HCDB-111103 (Thanks!) some very minor errors:

- F-4C Phantom lacks the IRST.

 

Yeah, I'm aware. I haven't added it to the F-4C (or for that matter, to the F-4B) because I'm not sure whether the AAA-4 IR sensor set is sufficiently useful to merit the IRST flag. There appears to be evidence that it was deleted from later models, in fact, because it wasn't particularly effective. Thoughts and comments welcome.

About the HCDB-111103 (Thanks!) some very minor errors:

- F-4C Phantom lacks the IRST.

 

Yeah, I'm aware. I haven't added it to the F-4C (or for that matter, to the F-4B) because I'm not sure whether the AAA-4 IR sensor set is sufficiently useful to merit the IRST flag. There appears to be evidence that it was deleted from later models, in fact, because it wasn't particularly effective. Thoughts and comments welcome.

Yes, I was thinking also the same thing, but I think now the current GE reflects well the past and present capabilities of IRST, i.e. actually very limited range (near 20 nm, as at least in the old systems), useless in bad weather/clouds/rain, bad angle accuracy and bad determination of target range. About the many IR systems used by US, see http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav...aa2ad.html#_AAR

Some years ago I make a table of supposed IRST ranges based on published ranges (I think Brassey's was one of the main sources):

Type Plane Range Range game Pd game

Vampir Ship mounted range=20 PD=50

AAA-4 F-4B/C range=20?

ALR-23 F-14A (early) range=20?

TP-23 MiG-23 range=21

TP-26(rear)MiG-23MLA/P/PD/MLK range=32

TP-26Sh1 MiG-25PD range=24

OEPS-27 Su-27 range=40

OEPS-29 MiG-29 range=27

OEPS-K MiG-29 range=30

TP-8 MiG-31 range=32

PIRATE Typhoon range=81

OSF Rafale range=48

OTIS Gripen range=43

AAS-42 F-14D/F-16 range=97

EOTS F-35 range=90?

 

But I think those range values are very optimistic, and nowadays I think the IRST is as the electric car, the same range in 2011 than in 1900 ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_th...uction_vehicles

If not, bad weather considerations aside, as Germany (and Austria) can purchase the Eurofighter without IRST, or the same in the F-22 case?

And the IRST is advertised as one of F-35 main improvements, and I ever suspects of the F-35

And the Russians are employing IRST for years, but as we can see on the table, the range has not increased very much (and curiously the range of the specialized MiG-31 IRST is smaller than the Su-27 IRST), and the Russians must be more experts on this field ...

But it's only my personal opinion ...

One of the drawbacks of being unable to model the varying capabilities among 'generations' of ESM, sensors, etc.

 

Ok, I'll toss in the AAA-4 as an IRST and hopefully it'll work out just fine.

The long time delayed case for the Knox-class FF:

I know High Tide says from FF-1084 McCandless on the Knoxes not were equipped with weapons in the fantail, first with Sea Sparrow neither later with Phalanx, but photographic evidence says otherwise, as we can see later. In the usual family of links, we can see as example McCandless clearly with a Phalanx on 1983: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_McCandless_(FF-1084)

Also, in the Jane’s Fighting Ships 1981-1982 (it’s a pre-South Atlantic War book), now I’m reading in the Knox entry: “Sea Sparrow BPMDS installed in 31 ships from 1971-75 (FF-1052-1069, 1071-1083)”, as stated in the usual Harpoon annexes.

And also “All ships of the class are to be fitted with 20 mm Phalanx CIWS Mk16 on the fantail. On those ships with Sea Sparrow the CIWS will replace it”, I think it was a misinterpretation or deletion of the sentence first part, the error later recorded in the Harpoon annexes (as in High Tide: “1982 and on: A( R )1 Mk15 Phalanx added, replacing Mk25 BPMDS in ships so equipped”), as not only the BPMDS equipped ships were to receive the CIWS (but we will see it’s also true not all the Knoxes were armed in the fantail).

 

My idea is we can add a new Knox entry with BPMDS (or NATO Sea Sparrow in FF-1070) from 1975 on (just to the time of decommissionning in some cases, as we will see below), as the BPMDS was installed in many ships clearly well into the 1990s and later.

Based on photographic evidence on the usual web sites, mainly navsource.org for the pictures:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06idx.htm

http://www.navysite.de/ff/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_class_frigate

 

- First case:

Knox-class FF (1983/1), theorically on origin all equipped with Sea Sparrow from 1971-1975 to be replaced later by Phalanx, based mainly on yearly photographic evidence of weapons in Navysource.org:

 

Knox: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1991. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: Never, including after decommissioning.

Roark: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 197x-1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: Never, including after decommissioning.

Gray: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1980-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?

Hepburn: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1984.

Connole: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?.

Rathburne: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991.

Meyerkord: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991.

W.S. Sims: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1976-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987.

Lang: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1976-1980?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989.

Patterson: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?

Whipple: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1974-1978. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989.

Reasoner: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1990-1993.

Lockwood: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1989-1994.

Stein: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: No?.

Marvin Shields: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985.

Francis Hammond: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991.

Vreeland: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1980-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987-1992.

Bagley: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989.

Downes: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1983-1985. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989.

(Downes was equipped with NATO Sea Sparrow mount and TAS Mk23 radar).

Badger: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975-1988. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?.

Blakely: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?.

Robert E. Peary: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 197x-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1989-1991

Harold E. Holt: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1971-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?

Trippe: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1972-1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1987.

Fanning: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1979-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1984-1993.

Ouellet: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1983-1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1986-1989.

Joseph Hewes: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1979-198x?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987-1991.

Bowen: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975-1985. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1993.

Paul: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1972. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1988.

Cook: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 2006 (in Thailand service).

Elmer Montgomery: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1992

Alwyn: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1991.

 

As partial conclusion, some Knoxes were keeping the Sea Sparrow as late as 1988-1990 and in the early 1990s, incluiding other Knox just to her decommissioning in the early 1990s.

 

The Knoxes retaining the BMPDS Sea Sparrow to the end of her operational lives in the USN were: Knox and Roark by photographic evidence, and possibily also Gray, Connole, Patterson, Stein, Badger, Blakely and Harold E. Holt.

 

- Second case:

Knox-class FF (1983/2) of the no-Sea Sparrow group, and theorically never equipped with Phalanx, but actually equipped with Phalanx by photographic evidence:

 

McCandless: Year equipped with Phalanx: 1983.

Donald B. Beary: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1983-1985.

Brewton: Year equipped with Phalanx: Probably not on 1983, but at least from 1984.

Kirk: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1981-198,3

Barbey: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1987-1990.

Ainsworth: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1981-1984.

Jesse L. Brown: Year equipped with Phalanx: At least from 1989.

Capodanno: Year equipped with Phalanx: At least from 1986/87.

Thomas C. Hart: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1985-1990.

Pharris: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1983-1985.

Truett: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added from 1988.

Moinester: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1984-1986.

 

- Third case:

Knox-class FF apparently by photographic evidence never equipped with Sea Sparrow or Phalanx:

 

Miller.

Valdez.

 

(Uffff, I need to rest for a while )

Enrique, can you put your post re Knox up on Admiralty Trilogy and see what response you get from Carlson, Grining et al?

 

If there are errors in HT, it would benefit everyone to have them rectified. Please and thanks.

Enrique, can you put your post re Knox up on Admiralty Trilogy and see what response you get from Carlson, Grining et al?

 

If there are errors in HT, it would benefit everyone to have them rectified. Please and thanks.

Ok Brad, I will do some re-writing of the post first ...

Another idea for a minor "toy", curious but not very relevant (and clearly of the 1980-199X gap):

 

US Navy PB Mk III Patrol Boat Sea Specter (1973-1994)

 

Modified and edited in a later post.