Replenishment At Sea

[Akula]

Pipe Dream #2:

 

I know I'm not the only person who has run out of <insert ammo type here> and wished I could stop off at my nearest floating, friendly 7-11 (the AOR) and pick up some more of them. Particularly SAMs, as the AI seems to think 12:1 ratio is nessessary to shoot down incoming threats.

 

What I propose is a simple, yet workable solution to this problem in several points.

 

Each ship/land unit has 4-6 different types of supplies that it can consume.

 

• Fuel
  
  
• Food/Water
  
  
• Ammo
  
  
• Spare Parts
  
  
• AV-Gas
  
  
• AV-Ordinance
  
  

 

Each ship unit and base has a finite amount of each. Each is consumed at a set rate.

 

For example:

 

CV Roosevelt has 999999 Fuel (Nuclear), 10000 food/water, 500 ammo, 100 spare parts, 5000 AV-Gas and 5000 AV-Ordanance. It uses 0 points of fuel per day, 100 food/water per day, ammo as fired (1 shot = 1 point), spares are used only if damage is present to the ships subcomponants, and AV-Gas and AV-Ordanace are used at a rate of 1 point per sortie (each plane that takes off is 1 sortie). As these points are used, it needs to replinish them either via an AO group or by docking at a friendly port...running out obviously makes the ship quite useless.

 

Now, each AOR along with having its own needs in the food/fuel/ammo departments also carries a set number of 'stores' that can be consumed by friendly ships that need to replinish.

 

Quick Example:

 

AOR Wichita carries 10000 fuel, 100000 food/water, 5000 ammo, 1000 spares, 2500 AV-Gas and 2500 AV-ordanance. Other ships can take on supplies from the Wichita until it runs dry, at which point it can return to a port and replinish itself.

 

Land units work the same, but they take supplies from convoys, that can take supplies from fleets or bases.

 

OK, now the replinishment type ships...any cargo ship can carry stores, though some can only be unloaded at a dock/beachhead. Also, not every ship carries every type of store. Merchant ships might only carry food/water and ammo. AEs only carry ammo, and maybe a few spares, etc.

 

Another thing, ships can share from their own stores of food/water, fuel and spares to help another ship.

 

What would we need?

 

Ability to replinish at sea

Ability to dock/draw supplies from ports/bases

Ability to track consumables

 

Any discussion on this issue would be good, as I'm sure I'm not the only person with ideas on how this could work.

[TonyE]

Once again Akula takes a complicated topic (logistics, even if it is hidden as At Sea Replenishment) and breaks it down into a manageable system (why can't I do that?! ). The pool of logistics points in a certain number of areas on a platform gives a workable logistics model without the minutia of tracking each individual weapon type, filling magazines each time a weapon changes, etc. (yes H3, I'm looking at you!). Where I first felt the flow and ease of the pool of points is in TacOps. It was so easy and natural that I got exactly what I needed as a commander, the knowledge my guys were low on ammo, an abstract way to get them resupplied, and the worry about running out of supplies before the scenario finished.

 

Looking at Akula's model I would take it another step farther and allow each weapon to have a certain cost defined at the DB level (tempting to make it at the scenario level but at the DB level the implementation is much easier). So rather than a Mk82 and a TLAM each costing one point, a Mk82 might cost 2 Ammo points where a TLAM costs 400 Ammo points. That change fulfills one of the keys of a logistics system, making the fancy weapons much more limited than the cheaper and usually less capable weapons. Now you start considering LGBs against small ships instead of Harpoons because each Harpoon costs 40 Ammo points while a LGB costs 8 Ammo points.

 

 

The Good:

1. No need to manage magazines with the exact make and model of each weapon.

2. Adds the strategic element of maximizing damage while minimizing losses. You, the commander may decide that the air defense network must be destroyed with TLAM to keep aircraft losses minimal, and to later allow JDAM carriers to come into a lightened air defense environment.

3. Operates at a level (individual ship/base) to make a CSG (Carrier Strike Group) limited in supply, as compared to a single global points pool that could still give a carrier group way too much power and on-station time.

4. Easy for the player, and the scenario designer! The only one having a really bad day in this model is the DB editor who will be universally hated for making a TLAM 400 Ammo points instead of 401 <_>

 

 

The Bad:

1. Tony will still be able to artificially inflate the number of AIM-54C available since he can make all of the A-6s carry dumb bombs to make up for the costly AAMs.

2. Even the points model is a huge step for HC, requiring some big idea changes, many of which Akula lays out.

 

 

What this model makes me think of (for future discussion):

In concert with taking over bases and occupying area, the idea of factories that change raw resources into the 4-6 resources Akula lays out. Many of you already know my dream of controlled areas providing money with which I can wage war on the longer terms, building cities and such to increase raw resources. Not only that but logistics points give some direction and hint at costing the scenario, if one person can win a scenario spending only 10,000 points, he can really laugh at a person who took 75,000 points to reach victory. This also raises the old economic questions of do I build factories, develop my cities, or do I buy smart weapons to fight the battle...

 

Anyway, looking forward to everyone's input, please consider this topic a general commentary on logistics as a whole. I don't know that my future discussion item is appropriate to the topic but may be something to keep in mind as you develop comments about Akula's model and my suggested additions/changes.

[RA-5C]

As for the topic... I was asking that of Les and Gordon and the gang back in 1990. Replenishment (along with capturing bases) has been one of my "wish list" for years. But question?.. I don't think assigning a point system is very accurate? Let me write up my thoughts and submit them later this weekend.

[Gdtrfb]

This an absolute must for large Scenario's .....I actually served on Teddy Ruxbin (CVN-71) from may 90-92 the thing with unrep is you actually used helos for ammo and lines for fuel so you cannot lauch and recover planes while doing this since the ammo gets put on the flight deck thus if there is a oh shit moment it doesn't happen in the hanger bay ...also if i remember right we had 1.2mil gallons of Avgas which sounds like a lot...but isnt that much with the crazy flight ops we run in the game...this would add a wonderful stratigic use of assets instead of just flooding the skies with Aircraft.Also your escorts use a lot of fuel oil when steaming at launch and recover speed.any way if this can be implemented it would be great.

Thing with spare parts is the things that break alot (engines) are big and not many are carried by the AOE most of its hull is for food we would onload like 70 pallets just of coke....so in actuallity the amount of reloads would be only about 10% of hull space.but anyway if ican help in anyway please contact me this is no 1 on my wish list(an armed force marches/sails on its stomach)

regards Joe

p.s also you get water from the evaps so you dont need that one

[Akula]

Coming back to this one.

 

While the point system is not ideal, it is probably the easiest to implement and balance.

 

As far as actual cargo space, if we got some input from navy guys that served aboard the replinishment ships it would certainly be beneficial.

[noxious]

Coming back to this one.

 

While the point system is not ideal, it is probably the easiest to implement and balance.

 

Well, I think the point system is quite elegant in its simplicity, especially after reading Tony's take on it right after your expose. I tend to think it's absolutely in-line with HCE's other modelling approaches, which are all quite simple, as I've been led to believe

And if I understand things right, HCE is first and foremost a game that tries and does a great job at giving a feel of reality to the experience. It's not a hardcore "real" simulator posturing as a game, so simplicity and elegance to model complex situations are good.

Hats off to Akula !!

[TEPonta]

I don't know how these could be modeled, but I do recall some restrictions imposed on an UnRep group from my days on the USS Mars.

 

1. While ConRepping, the ability of the units involved to maneuver is severely limited. Although course changes are possible, they are made gradually in 10 degree increments IIRC, so the replenishment course isn't quite carved in stone, but nearly so, for the duration, which can be several hours.

 

2. In addition to the above, a VertRep or combination ConRep/VertRep imposes limitations based on relative wind. a CH-46 is pretty flexible in this regard, but there is a cone of wind that will result in problems with the rotors meshing properly. Unfortunately, I can't remember what those winds are exactly, but I'll see what I can find.

 

A torpedo detection, for instance, would cause emergency breakaways and all the chaos that entails. My only problem is that I can't think of how these could be modeled. If replenishment is automatic, they probably can't be. If a provision is made for the player to schedule or order replenishment, maybe something could be worked out.

 

Also, our procedure was to load supplies in Subic and Kao Hsiung, and then rendezvous with the groups we were tasked to supply, which would involve joining and splitting groups rather than simply including the UnRep unit in the formation for the duration of the scenario.

 

For any of you guys who spent endless days on Yankee Station because of our ability to keep you supplied, don't hate me too severely. All that time in Subic was rough, but someone had to do it.

 

Buddha

[pmaidhof]

All that time in Subic was rough, but someone had to do it.

 

 

Subic was still open when I went active, but was sent to Camp Lejuene. Many of the Sgts and SSgts of the time had completed WestPacs, and the stories they could tell, might even make a sailor blush...Buddha?... By the end of my active time Subic was gone, and now, given my retirement papers arrived this past Saturday, probably just a fading memory in the Navy/Marine Corps collective-memory.

 

UnRep/VertRep are tremendous opportunities in a operationary sense...I can see how some tactical complications can make implementing it in HCE become problematic. However, lets still try to see what we can make of it.

[CV32]

Amateurs talk tactics, professionals study logistics.

[TonyE]

Each ship/land unit has 4-6 different types of supplies that it can consume.

 

• Fuel
   
  
• Food/Water
   
  
• Ammo
   
  
• Spare Parts
   
  
• AV-Gas
   
  
• AV-Ordinance
  

 

Nice discussion everyone . Akula suggested the above categories of resources, is there something missing? I'm personally unsure whether Spare Parts merits inclusion. Spare Parts has a lot of potential (fixing broken rudders, fixing knocked out radars, salvaging a sand infested helo, etc.), does it fit the mold of the rest though.

 

As for the general approach, it looks like the points approach wins unanimously so we'll move forward with the idea of points. I'm happy to see some discussion about mechanics. Do we transfer points from ship to ship via helo, or do we just have abstracted transfer of supplies within a group without the player (and AI) undertaking micro-management...

 

I'm really excited about logistics and some day when I'm old and grey turning it into a production system as well with money, political power, natural resources, etc. as components, factories, refineries, markets creating the fuel, food, etc. that the fleet uses.

[TEPonta]

Each ship/land unit has 4-6 different types of supplies that it can consume.

 

• Fuel
   
  
• Food/Water
   
  
• Ammo
   
  
• Spare Parts
   
  
• AV-Gas
   
  
• AV-Ordinance
  

 

Nice discussion everyone . Akula suggested the above categories of resources, is there something missing? I'm personally unsure whether Spare Parts merits inclusion. Spare Parts has a lot of potential (fixing broken rudders, fixing knocked out radars, salvaging a sand infested helo, etc.), does it fit the mold of the rest though.

 

As for the general approach, it looks like the points approach wins unanimously so we'll move forward with the idea of points. I'm happy to see some discussion about mechanics. Do we transfer points from ship to ship via helo, or do we just have abstracted transfer of supplies within a group without the player (and AI) undertaking micro-management...

 

I'm really excited about logistics and some day when I'm old and grey turning it into a production system as well with money, political power, natural resources, etc. as components, factories, refineries, markets creating the fuel, food, etc. that the fleet uses.

 

I tend to agree as regards spare parts. Unless it involves a major casualty of something fairly large, an urgent parts transfer would probably involve a quick ride in a helo. Since normal maintenance failures is already included as a realism option, any parts transfer delay would probably be easier to incorporate there, if desired.

 

Buddha

[divefreak]

As for the general approach, it looks like the points approach wins unanimously so we'll move forward with the idea of points. I'm happy to see some discussion about mechanics. Do we transfer points from ship to ship via helo, or do we just have abstracted transfer of supplies within a group without the player (and AI) undertaking micro-management...

 

I vote for the abstract model as long as we have the group fucused game ....

[TEPonta]

All that time in Subic was rough, but someone had to do it.

 

 

Subic was still open when I went active, but was sent to Camp Lejuene. Many of the Sgts and SSgts of the time had completed WestPacs, and the stories they could tell, might even make a sailor blush...Buddha?... By the end of my active time Subic was gone, and now, given my retirement papers arrived this past Saturday, probably just a fading memory in the Navy/Marine Corps collective-memory.

 

UnRep/VertRep are tremendous opportunities in a operationary sense...I can see how some tactical complications can make implementing it in HCE become problematic. However, lets still try to see what we can make of it.

 

When I left Saudi Arabia in '94, I stopped off to visit the Philippines on the way back to San Diego and wound up staying a year. The place was a mere shadow of it's former self, although a good time could still be had.

 

Buddha

[Akula]

I don't know how these could be modeled, but I do recall some restrictions imposed on an UnRep group from my days on the USS Mars.

 

1. While ConRepping, the ability of the units involved to maneuver is severely limited. Although course changes are possible, they are made gradually in 10 degree increments IIRC, so the replenishment course isn't quite carved in stone, but nearly so, for the duration, which can be several hours.

 

2. In addition to the above, a VertRep or combination ConRep/VertRep imposes limitations based on relative wind. a CH-46 is pretty flexible in this regard, but there is a cone of wind that will result in problems with the rotors meshing properly. Unfortunately, I can't remember what those winds are exactly, but I'll see what I can find.

 

A torpedo detection, for instance, would cause emergency breakaways and all the chaos that entails. My only problem is that I can't think of how these could be modeled. If replenishment is automatic, they probably can't be. If a provision is made for the player to schedule or order replenishment, maybe something could be worked out.

 

Also, our procedure was to load supplies in Subic and Kao Hsiung, and then rendezvous with the groups we were tasked to supply, which would involve joining and splitting groups rather than simply including the UnRep unit in the formation for the duration of the scenario.

 

For any of you guys who spent endless days on Yankee Station because of our ability to keep you supplied, don't hate me too severely. All that time in Subic was rough, but someone had to do it.

 

Buddha

 

1. So we cap the speed of the entire task force for a set amount of time to complete the replinishing. I don't know how long it takes but obviosly its not something that is done in 30 minutes. Of course there is also the ships that much replishish DITW. This would require the group coming to a complete stop.

 

2. VertRep could be accompilshed underway I assume. You just assign a set number of replinishment points per helo load and let them fly from one ship to another.

 

3. Torpedo contacts: Preferably you would want to find a 'safe' place to replinish anyway. Question is do we want to auto-break if the contact is made, or do we want to keep the simple speed limit on until it completes? One of those things that puts a little planning into it, instead of topping off after every engagement. You pay your money and take your chances basically.

 

4. Obviously by my #3, I think UnRep should be a player initiated action. It doesn't attempt it until you are comfortable doing it.

[Akula]

All that time in Subic was rough, but someone had to do it.

 

 

Subic was still open when I went active, but was sent to Camp Lejuene. Many of the Sgts and SSgts of the time had completed WestPacs, and the stories they could tell, might even make a sailor blush...Buddha?... By the end of my active time Subic was gone, and now, given my retirement papers arrived this past Saturday, probably just a fading memory in the Navy/Marine Corps collective-memory.

 

UnRep/VertRep are tremendous opportunities in a operationary sense...I can see how some tactical complications can make implementing it in HCE become problematic. However, lets still try to see what we can make of it.

 

When I left Saudi Arabia in '94, I stopped off to visit the Philippines on the way back to San Diego and wound up staying a year. The place was a mere shadow of it's former self, although a good time could still be had.

 

Buddha

 

As well as some things you didn't want as well I'm sure.