broncepulido

Yes, fighting the Soviets was as fighting aliens, because the very unknown factors of the enemy (sometimes the Soviets were ignorant of his own forces because his own secretist occult his forces to his own combatants). Casually I've finded this book some few minutes ago about the last times of the Soviet Naval Forces http://eugeneleeslover.com/US-NAVY-BOOKS/1...VELOPMENTS.html in the very interesting web site http://eugeneleeslover.com/GS-USN-PAGE.html

More detailed edition of the previous post: Another idea for a minor "toy", curious but not very relevant (and clearly of the 1980-199X gap): US Navy PB Mk III Patrol Boat Sea Specter (1973-1994)(data edited 19 November 2011 to change data from the newly adquired US Small Combatants - An Illustrated Design History, Norman Friedman, Naval Institute Press 1987): 20 meter/65 foot long, 31.5 tons light, Diesel, 27 knots. SS radar. 8 alternative weapons mounts for 106mm recoiless gun (only one in port side), twin torpedo tube (only one in port side), rocket launcher (only one in port side), 40mm Bofors Mk 3 Mod 7 or 9 with 48 rounds drum not very reliable, it was a WWII modernized gun with power feed, 30mm gun, 25mm Mk 88 chain gun, 20mm Mk 16 gun (twin or single), 40mm grenate launchers, 81mm mortars, 12.7mm (twin or single) and 7.62mm (twin or single) MG in many weapon mixes. Tested 1981-1982 with 4xPenguin MkII SSM. From 1973 supplied to the Naval Reserve Force. Many exported. Asymmetrical bridge displaced to starboard. Aluminium construction. Reduced RCS. Three engines of difficult maintenance, centerline engine silenced for low and quiet speed. Employed operationally at least 1987-1988 in the Tanker War of the Persian Gulf. Names: eight: 65PB731 to 65PB738 (FY 73), ten: 65PB751 to 65PB7510 (FY 75), four for the Philippines 65PB771 to 65PB774 (FY 77) and four for the USN 65PB775 to 65PB778 (FY 77). 20 boats built for Iran and delivered from December 1975 to December 1976. Unknown number delivered of a further order of 1976 for 50 boats to be assembled in Iran. More powerful diesel engines for 30 knots, and armed with 1x20mm GAM-B01 gun and 1x12.7mm MG, LN-66 radar. Ten extant 1995. Post edited 19 november 2011 to include links to pictures of those elusive boats and the aforementioned data from US Small Combatants, many mixed weapons, some apparently armed with 1x40mm Mk 3 Mod 9 gun forward, 1x40mm grenate launcher port-bow, 1x12.7mm starboard-bow, 1x81mm mortar port, 1x20mm gun aft, 2x12.7mm MG pq and sq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...SB_Hercules.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Prime_Chance http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category...on_Prime_Chance http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_4cm-56_mk12.htm

Very well, that's the way ...

The answer is clear: NO (at least on my knowledge today). When I'm designing some scenario I start from my own old notes in ship deployment based in some examples of the very old Military Balance (paper). Today we have very powerful tools in the web, but some ships deployments are well know and other of the same class not. I'm doing some years ago Excel tables with numeric ship deployments between 1982 and 1991 or so, and it's the basis for other more detailed research, including individual ship names. You can see a parallel procedure in this link: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?s...ost&p=33481 Basically I think you can start with these links and research about individual story of each individual ships you are interested on: http://www.navsource.org/archives/06idx.htm (and look for the ship class/individual ships you are interested. Yes, a painful and very long process ). http://www.navysite.de/ff/index.html (the same procedure, and you can research also some minimum amounts of information in the Cruise Books, habitually with the sailing route of the ship, also some concrete and useful details in individual ships websites (as the superb http://www.okieboat.com/ ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_class_frigate (or the class of ships/individual ships you are interested on. Dont forget to see in the parallel versions of the wikipedia in other languages, mainly Russian, Deutsch, Español, Francais and Polski. As a pair of examples, in the Russian Wikipedia you have very descripted in service life of individual Russian ships, as other more detailed example I've employed it in the individual career of the Sverdlov class cruisers and to determine what concrete Sovremenny class DDG (Otichelnyy) was in the Persian Gulf shadowing the US forces on 18 April 1988, doing also oil tankers escort tasks http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%82%...B5%D1%86,_1981) ). Very important and useful is also this link, about adscription of Russian/Soviet ships to each fleet, and similar stuff: http://russian-ships.info/eng For French ships: http://netmarine.net/bat/listes/flot1982.htm (and the whole http://netmarine.net web site). http://www.meretmarine.com/ Also the very impressive site about US Navy, Carriers, Air Wing and deployments: http://www.gonavy.jp/ And don't fear about unknow foreing languages, I use: http://www.online-translator.com/ (with virtual Russian keyboard). And all the other ideas or inspirations you can think about it... Incidentally, in my last scenario building efforts, I've used all the aforementioned methods, and the OOB in the Supporting Argentina 1982 or Red Spanish Main 1986, all the ships and planes depicted (and Hurricanes!) were in the theatre zone in the determined time period, or in the case of Russian ships, they can were in the theatre because Northern, Baltic or Black Sea assignation (It must also to determine if some concrete ship/submarine was in drydock/maintenance in the determined time period). I hope this was useful for you ...

Other easy and apparently fast execution ideas (we can use perhaps the RF-4C loadouts) for more flavour: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_16.html RF-4E Phantom II (Germany, 1971-1994): 88 delivered. Some with ESM. From 1982 all with ALE-40 and weapons delivery system. 5000 lb bombs, or 6xHunting BL755. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_43.html RF-4E Phantom II (Greece, 1978+): 8 new-build delivered, later 20 second-hand delivered from Germany. Equipped with 4xAIM-9P Sidewinder. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_45.html RF-4E Phantom II (Iran, 1971+): 27 ordered, only 16 delivered, 1 lost before the Iran-Iraq War. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_44.html RF-4E Phantom II (Israel, 1971-2004?), 12 or 18 delivered from 1971 (initially two RF-4C loaned by the USAF 1970-1971). Only 6 in the 1973 war. AIM-9B/D Sidewinder, Python 3 from 1978. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_41.html RF-4EJ Phantom II (Japan, 1975-1988?): only RWR. APQ-99 radar. 14 new-build. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_47.html RF-4EJ Kai Phantom II (Japan, 1989?+): ESM added. APQ-172 radar. 15 converted from F-4EJ. RF-4E Phantom II (Turkey, 1978+): 8 new-build delivered, later 32 second-hand delivered from Germany. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_46.html

That's the origin of the very contagious disorder know as OCDBE (Obsessive-Compulsive DataBase Editing), affecting some top-posters of these fora

I understand clearly your voice (I think it's similar to my own voice ), I understand clearly every word, but I think the whole thing is very far of my mental capabitilies ...

It's off-topic, but that remember me of as in the defence seminars is habitually commented as the Third World countries are increasing his troops presence on UN missions because UN soldier wages are not perceived by the soldiers, it's perceived by the (usually dictatorial) Third World country or government!!! Probably that is his main "security concern" .....

Another idea for a minor "toy", curious but not very relevant (and clearly of the 1980-199X gap): US Navy PB Mk III Patrol Boat Sea Specter (1973-1994) Modified and edited in a later post.

Ok Brad, I will do some re-writing of the post first ...

The long time delayed case for the Knox-class FF: I know High Tide says from FF-1084 McCandless on the Knoxes not were equipped with weapons in the fantail, first with Sea Sparrow neither later with Phalanx, but photographic evidence says otherwise, as we can see later. In the usual family of links, we can see as example McCandless clearly with a Phalanx on 1983: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_McCandless_(FF-1084) Also, in the Jane’s Fighting Ships 1981-1982 (it’s a pre-South Atlantic War book), now I’m reading in the Knox entry: “Sea Sparrow BPMDS installed in 31 ships from 1971-75 (FF-1052-1069, 1071-1083)”, as stated in the usual Harpoon annexes. And also “All ships of the class are to be fitted with 20 mm Phalanx CIWS Mk16 on the fantail. On those ships with Sea Sparrow the CIWS will replace it”, I think it was a misinterpretation or deletion of the sentence first part, the error later recorded in the Harpoon annexes (as in High Tide: “1982 and on: A( R )1 Mk15 Phalanx added, replacing Mk25 BPMDS in ships so equipped”), as not only the BPMDS equipped ships were to receive the CIWS (but we will see it’s also true not all the Knoxes were armed in the fantail). My idea is we can add a new Knox entry with BPMDS (or NATO Sea Sparrow in FF-1070) from 1975 on (just to the time of decommissionning in some cases, as we will see below), as the BPMDS was installed in many ships clearly well into the 1990s and later. Based on photographic evidence on the usual web sites, mainly navsource.org for the pictures: http://www.navsource.org/archives/06idx.htm http://www.navysite.de/ff/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knox_class_frigate - First case: Knox-class FF (1983/1), theorically on origin all equipped with Sea Sparrow from 1971-1975 to be replaced later by Phalanx, based mainly on yearly photographic evidence of weapons in Navysource.org: Knox: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1991. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: Never, including after decommissioning. Roark: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 197x-1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: Never, including after decommissioning. Gray: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1980-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ? Hepburn: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1984. Connole: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?. Rathburne: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991. Meyerkord: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991. W.S. Sims: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1976-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987. Lang: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1976-1980?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989. Patterson: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ? Whipple: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1974-1978. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989. Reasoner: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1990-1993. Lockwood: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1989-1994. Stein: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: No?. Marvin Shields: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985. Francis Hammond: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1977-1987. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1991. Vreeland: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1980-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987-1992. Bagley: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989. Downes: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1983-1985. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1989. (Downes was equipped with NATO Sea Sparrow mount and TAS Mk23 radar). Badger: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975-1988. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?. Blakely: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ?. Robert E. Peary: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 197x-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1989-1991 Harold E. Holt: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1971-1982. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: ? Trippe: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1972-1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1987. Fanning: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1979-1983. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1984-1993. Ouellet: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1983-1984. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1986-1989. Joseph Hewes: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1979-198x?. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1987-1991. Bowen: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975-1985. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1993. Paul: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1972. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1988. Cook: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1981-1990. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 2006 (in Thailand service). Elmer Montgomery: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1973-1981. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1992 Alwyn: Graphic evidence of Sea Sparrow: 1975. Graphic evidence of Phalanx: 1985-1991. As partial conclusion, some Knoxes were keeping the Sea Sparrow as late as 1988-1990 and in the early 1990s, incluiding other Knox just to her decommissioning in the early 1990s. The Knoxes retaining the BMPDS Sea Sparrow to the end of her operational lives in the USN were: Knox and Roark by photographic evidence, and possibily also Gray, Connole, Patterson, Stein, Badger, Blakely and Harold E. Holt. - Second case: Knox-class FF (1983/2) of the no-Sea Sparrow group, and theorically never equipped with Phalanx, but actually equipped with Phalanx by photographic evidence: McCandless: Year equipped with Phalanx: 1983. Donald B. Beary: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1983-1985. Brewton: Year equipped with Phalanx: Probably not on 1983, but at least from 1984. Kirk: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1981-198,3 Barbey: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1987-1990. Ainsworth: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1981-1984. Jesse L. Brown: Year equipped with Phalanx: At least from 1989. Capodanno: Year equipped with Phalanx: At least from 1986/87. Thomas C. Hart: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1985-1990. Pharris: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1983-1985. Truett: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added from 1988. Moinester: Year equipped with Phalanx: Added between 1984-1986. - Third case: Knox-class FF apparently by photographic evidence never equipped with Sea Sparrow or Phalanx: Miller. Valdez. (Uffff, I need to rest for a while )

Very interesting analysis, thanks. 3W in Harpoon missile I think stands by three waypoints capable in the target approach. About guns and round loads (in relation with the small magazine issue), we can see: http://russian-ships.info/eng/warships/project_1164.htm http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_51-70_ak130.htm http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-54_mk45.htm Ammunition stowage per gun The Ticonderogas has about the double of main gun rounds than Project 1164, and her main guns are very separated in the hull, one lucky shot can't disable both, but it's possible in the Project 1164 case.

We live in a very complex world ...

Yeah, I'm aware. I haven't added it to the F-4C (or for that matter, to the F-4B) because I'm not sure whether the AAA-4 IR sensor set is sufficiently useful to merit the IRST flag. There appears to be evidence that it was deleted from later models, in fact, because it wasn't particularly effective. Thoughts and comments welcome. Yes, I was thinking also the same thing, but I think now the current GE reflects well the past and present capabilities of IRST, i.e. actually very limited range (near 20 nm, as at least in the old systems), useless in bad weather/clouds/rain, bad angle accuracy and bad determination of target range. About the many IR systems used by US, see http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav...aa2ad.html#_AAR Some years ago I make a table of supposed IRST ranges based on published ranges (I think Brassey's was one of the main sources): Type Plane Range Range game Pd game Vampir Ship mounted range=20 PD=50 AAA-4 F-4B/C range=20? ALR-23 F-14A (early) range=20? TP-23 MiG-23 range=21 TP-26(rear)MiG-23MLA/P/PD/MLK range=32 TP-26Sh1 MiG-25PD range=24 OEPS-27 Su-27 range=40 OEPS-29 MiG-29 range=27 OEPS-K MiG-29 range=30 TP-8 MiG-31 range=32 PIRATE Typhoon range=81 OSF Rafale range=48 OTIS Gripen range=43 AAS-42 F-14D/F-16 range=97 EOTS F-35 range=90? But I think those range values are very optimistic, and nowadays I think the IRST is as the electric car, the same range in 2011 than in 1900 ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_th...uction_vehicles If not, bad weather considerations aside, as Germany (and Austria) can purchase the Eurofighter without IRST, or the same in the F-22 case? And the IRST is advertised as one of F-35 main improvements, and I ever suspects of the F-35 And the Russians are employing IRST for years, but as we can see on the table, the range has not increased very much (and curiously the range of the specialized MiG-31 IRST is smaller than the Su-27 IRST), and the Russians must be more experts on this field ... But it's only my personal opinion ...

Great! Thanks for sharing

Some minor considerations about Iranian ships: The Kaman class (late), entry 2811, lacks the ship names. The Kaman class (early), entry 2440, should be equipped with Decca 1226 and WM20 series radar, not Chinese radars, also perhaps with a SA-7 MANPADS, not a SA-7 team. The Saam (Vosper Mk5), entry 2420, would add for historical scenarios the ship named Sahand, sunked in 1988. Also, I think the original Harpoon Gold DB forerunner of the present DB was frozen in the earlies 1990s, but deleting a lot of ship names decommissioned between the first Harpoon Classic iterations and the earlies 1990s (as the forementioned Saam or in the British Leander FFs). We can re-introduce those ship names for the time period 1980-199X, but it will be a long work …

About the surface search radar ranges: The American ships are usually taller ships and have bigger masts. You can constate it with good profile drawings of the ships and a ruler (I do it from years ago from DB editing ...), to obtain the height about the sea of the SS radar antenna (or of a concrete lookout post in older ships and DBs, without radar). As result of my old meditions, the Perry is a taller ship (in the DB Mast Ht: Large Ship (40 m)), and the Type 22/3 Cornwall is a shorter ship (in the DB Mast Ht: Medium Ship (29 m)). As consequence, and using the paper rules (4.2.2.2.) as basis and reflected in the game engine of the computer game but with other range values, the Perry can "see" with the surface search radar the Cornwall at a maximum of 27 nm range (maximum radar horizon for a ship with Large mast), and the Cornwall can "see" the Perry at only a 16 nm range (maximum radar horizon for a ship with Medium mast) (I'm not sure on this moment of the 16 nm range value in the Game Engine, but we can do some testing later).

Yes, interesting focus of the question ...

About the HCDB-111103 (Thanks!) some very minor errors: - F-4C Phantom lacks the IRST. - Ticonderoga (83) entry 3439 has duplicated number (four) of 127mm guns. - Spelling error on entry 3442 Wielingen (1982) and entry 2862 Drazki (Wielingen), is write as Weilingen (is a problem only editing the DB, it was very diffult to trace where was the new Wielingen with the search option of Access!). About the WM20 series/Mk92 radar (in the egg-shaped radome), is also SS capable. For years I was using the very similar Snow Drift radar to simulate it on the DB. Now with the real thing in the DB we can use it on a very large number of ships: http://minus.com/ldmoue http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-R...ernational.html http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-N...etherlands.html http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4S3h8j_...dar&f=false

And heckuva lot cheaper than investing in a VSTOL jet fighter. No doubt that Sea Harrier made the best of a bad situation. (Not to downplay the fortunate coincidence of other factors like AIM-9L, Argentine fighters at the limits of their endurance, etc). But any number of other options might have been preferable, e.g. having the Americans intervene on the British side, friendly land based air closer than Ascension, CTOL carriers/naval aviation, etc. As in attack from Venezuela? Are you suggesting that the best or only effective way for the Dutch to defend Curacao et al would be via a VSTOL jet fighter? More about Curacao and his conventional airport, researched some weeks ago for the Supporting Argentina 1982 scenario. And theorically it's ever a Netherlands FF present: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hato_International_Airport http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/violenc...oldiers-curacao http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...a&aid=16879

Great work and great effort in the DB evolution, Gunny, but .... ventilation ?

I did notice one thing...if your FLAGSHIP is a sub, you can operate the submarine...but then you're out of touch with your OTHER assets while you're submerged. Oh, yes, I don't remembered this awful solution to the problem ...

This submarine issue (I'm a submarine fan) was one of the many causes of my abandon of Harpoon 2/ANW a lot of years ago, and I've never returned to play it ....

Great ! Thanks, Brad by the HCDB-111103 version of the DB, I was also thinking the last days in old version of the US cruisers ... (And in more submarines, the next time .... )