HCE - 2009.045 - 2009/10/08

===========================

- Chg:0000 GE eff115 (trigger AI sensor state and prompt user for sensor

activation) modified to require that the target unit in

question be detected. (thanks Brad)

- Chg:0000 GE True air to surface guns can now be used against surface

targets, both by the AI and the player.

(thanks hoogelex & Brad)

- Chg:0000 PE Changed end_edit.bat support contact information to HarpGamer.

 

Oops, I forgot to put the new end_edit.bat in the zip file, we'll get that another time.

 

Probably the only thing you can test is the air to surface guns, see the attached save (which verifies AI aircraft in formation can attack player surface units), and the scenario which allows the player to attach ships and a base with air to surface gunfire.

 

To make that happen a fundamental change was made to how groups are targeted so look for anomolies with other types of attacks. Also be on the lookout for aircraft screaming to their deaths because they think they need to use their surface attack guns before going home to base.

GUNTEST.zip

HCE - 2009.045 - 2009/10/08

===========================

- Chg:0000 GE eff115 (trigger AI sensor state and prompt user for sensor

activation) modified to require that the target unit in

question be detected. (thanks Brad)

- Chg:0000 GE True air to surface guns can now be used against surface

targets, both by the AI and the player.

(thanks hoogelex & Brad)

- Chg:0000 PE Changed end_edit.bat support contact information to HarpGamer.

 

Oops, I forgot to put the new end_edit.bat in the zip file, we'll get that another time.

 

Probably the only thing you can test is the air to surface guns, see the attached save (which verifies AI aircraft in formation can attack player surface units), and the scenario which allows the player to attach ships and a base with air to surface gunfire.

 

To make that happen a fundamental change was made to how groups are targeted so look for anomolies with other types of attacks. Also be on the lookout for aircraft screaming to their deaths because they think they need to use their surface attack guns before going home to base.

 

The guns vs surface is CONFIRMED. 20mm seems to sink small PTMs well.

Cool, thanks for taking a look Akula.

In my Battle of Ebro scenario the oposition consistently bomb AND strafe my airfields.

If my airplanes are in range, the game engine request me about use the guns against the enemy airfields.

Yes, sadly the air to surface guns are giving aircraft enough reason to close on target, in modern battles that pretty much means wasting aircraft that could have repeatedly toted longer-ranged munitions. Brad made a test scen for me over lunch that proved it. Scenario attached, play as Red, use Show All to launch Hornets against the Red base, then watch bad things happen.

ATTKTST.zip

Perhaps we can eliminate the ground attack effects of guns with caliber inferior than 30mm, as of negligible effects.

Yes, sadly the air to surface guns are giving aircraft enough reason to close on target, in modern battles that pretty much means wasting aircraft that could have repeatedly toted longer-ranged munitions. Brad made a test scen for me over lunch that proved it. Scenario attached, play as Red, use Show All to launch Hornets against the Red base, then watch bad things happen.

I've been away and now I'm crying, I was having so much fun taking out flack with zero fighters. I hadn't had time to look much at modern databases (just one scenario which seemed to go OK) It seemed not only was air 2 ground guns working but with multiple targets (eg a number of flack units) planes were going from one target straight to the next without sitting like mullets in the middle asking what to do next.

It seems generally worth persuing if can overcome this hurdle.

Don.

(Don goes away and plays scenario while sobbing)....

OK , I've run the scenario, the AI planes come in , launch missiles then close to attack with cannon. Not a good Idea but is this a problem of air 2 ground guns or a problem re any mix of long and short range ground weapons? Surely the same thing would happen if you had antiradar loadouts that included guided bombs, (I haven't tested I'm guessing)?

This is a land target that AI will only attack if scenario writer instructed an attacks, is that correct, how will it go if the target is a surface ship group? (I'll test).

The AI can be pretty dumb, is this just another example?

As some one greater than I said, "I'll be back"

Don.

Yes, sadly the air to surface guns are giving aircraft enough reason to close on target, in modern battles that pretty much means wasting aircraft that could have repeatedly toted longer-ranged munitions. Brad made a test scen for me over lunch that proved it. Scenario attached, play as Red, use Show All to launch Hornets against the Red base, then watch bad things happen.

I've been away and now I'm crying,

snip

(Don goes away and plays scenario while sobbing)....

OK , I've run the scenario, the AI planes come in , launch missiles then close to attack with cannon. Not a good Idea but is this a problem of air 2 ground guns or a problem re any mix of long and short range ground weapons? Surely the same thing would happen if you had antiradar loadouts that included guided bombs, (I haven't tested I'm guessing)?

This is a land target that AI will only attack if scenario writer instructed an attacks, is that correct, how will it go if the target is a surface ship group? (I'll test).

The AI can be pretty dumb, is this just another example?

As some one greater than I said, "I'll be back"

Don.

Here's my test, now I'm not saying Brad doesn't have a valid point, he does cause the planes act like kamikazies, but I don't think it's cut and dried.

Test is similar to Brad's, play red and use "show all" to launch blue planes. Try the antiradar loadouts and attack or patrol right over the red surface ship group, watch. If you turn on your radar you get HARMed (he,he) leave it off till you see the whites of their eyes and SAMem. In the end you'll be hammered 'cause the carrier will rearm with standoff ASUW and blitz you.

You might see the situation where the planes are loitering about seemingly wanting to come in and gun you, but apparently worried about your SAM and just turning back, is AI that smart? If it is then AI needs to know when its in stalemate and go home.

If blue planes are sent in one at a time red has a fair chance of getting a few, but if the initial attack is four planes its hard not to get done straight off although you should shoot down something.

I'm interested in what everyone thinks

Don.

attktst2.zip

The question is 'Can the AI be programmed to behave in a sane manner?'

 

As in, should the AI have an air defence check similar to this:

 

If air defence = not present, then engage with guns;

If air defence = present, then do not engage with guns;

 

Very simplified I know, but you get the idea.

 

Player can do what they want to, but at least the AI would err on the side of caution.

The question is 'Can the AI be programmed to behave in a sane manner?'

 

As in, should the AI have an air defence check similar to this:

 

If air defence = not present, then engage with guns;

If air defence = present, then do not engage with guns;

 

Very simplified I know, but you get the idea.

 

Player can do what they want to, but at least the AI would err on the side of caution.

I'd say concise, not simplified. That is I guess what I was trying to get to.

I perceive that AI seems to do this better than your own side (with out micromanagement), but not sure. Where it does act with caution it does seem to linger (until bingo) when perhaps it should retreat home.

Also does any of this pertain to naval vessels, eg surface craft in range of SSMs/artillary, subs in range mortar/ torpedo.

Also how much of the info is really available (in reality)? You might identify a ship by electronic or visual methods, and therefore know what it should have, but it might be out of suitable ammo. (EEk, where does it end?)

Don

Don

Keep talkin' folks, pretty much any solution is going to be a nightmare for me so you may as well get your 2 cents in. I do like the idea of trying to evaluate the defenses but it does indeed raise many questions about what you do if you don't have a perfect detection (to save the AI I suppose you'd say run away if you don't know for sure). Other approaches still welcome of course too.

 

Brad put forth a suggestion of don't close to fire any weapon that deals

Brad put forth a suggestion of don't close to fire any weapon that deals <= 3DP.

 

For me is enough. In the game scale, the effects of 7,62 or 12,7 mm are negligibles, except against pirate launch or similar soft target. But I remember the use of 20mm guns as tank busters (in He-112) in Spanish Civil War, against the light armour of the times. And today they're a lot of AFV with light armour, also very vulnerable to 20mm guns (and 12,7mm, but by far less vulnerables). I think the low limit of usable guns for ground attack may be 20mm guns = 1DP (but we ever can customize it).

Brad put forth a suggestion of don't close to fire any weapon that deals <= 3DP.

 

For me is enough. In the game scale, the effects of 7,62 or 12,7 mm are negligibles, except against pirate launch or similar soft target. But I remember the use of 20mm guns as tank busters (in He-112) in Spanish Civil War, against the light armour of the times. And today they're a lot of AFV with light armour, also very vulnerable to 20mm guns (and 12,7mm, but by far less vulnerables). I think the low limit of usable guns for ground attack may be 20mm guns = 1DP (but we ever can customize it).

 

20mm are still quite useful against soft targets, lightly armored vehicles and ships. But most fighters have very limited gun ammo (talking about 600 rounds for a gun firing 2-3000 per minute). I'm not sure if it really is of much value to engage a large target like a ship with a cannon burst from a fighter, a column of trucks or tanks it would be.

Perhaps we can limit the ground attack guns at only the few specialized types, as Il-2 Sturmovik, Hs-129, Ju-87G or A-10.

I'm not sure if it really is of much value to engage a large target like a ship with a cannon burst from a fighter

About the effects of attack a modern ship with 30mm guns, we can see the negligible effects of the israeli attack against the USS Liberty in 1967, and constate the improbability of sunk a big ship only with gunfire. The starboard listing was caused by the impact of a torpedo (from the total of six fired at USS Liberty), USS Liberty take also a napalm bomb impact.

http://www.gtr5.com/photos_after.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_i...and_sea_attacks

If I were behind the gun I guess I'd take a stab at calculating what effect my pea shooter will have on the target in question, what value will the enemy place on the target's loss/damage and what's the chance it will shoot me. If it 'looks good' I'd go in and shoot, otherwise I'd scarper. Is that logical and is it simple enough for the AI.

Brads suggestion that AI doesn't go hunting with weapons of less than a critical DP would be a good start if the code can't handle anything better, but if we want realistic scenarios where some important targets are soft and we don't waste limited and expensive ordinance on them then I'd like to see AI have a go at them. There are some neat scenarios with lots of land units (Phillipine Crunch in westpac is one I think) that I played late last night and got a whole new result - flanker fighter took out one of my tanks or APCs. Brad's HCWW database (well scenarios written to it) is quite different being able to use escorts to take out flak and slow, if not sink, torpedo boats etc.

Also I've seen harriers with antiradar loadouts come in low and fast (as they should) my SAMs trying to knock of the sidearms are unable to reload fast enough to hit the plane which then inflicts damage with cannon, in some cases finishing off the minimal damage done by the sidearms. I just think its well worth persuing, especially as it will take Tony's mind of beautiful, rich and smart women.

Having said that I'm not sure there isn't another problem which seems to crop up sometimes with other short range ground attack wepons and that is the attacking plane going backwards and forwards seemingly not able to get close enough for a shot. Has any one come across that and knows what's happening?

Don.