Hi all,

re the latest couple of HCWW data bases (090605 &090618). I like the idea of playing back in WW2 with out all them there modern stuff, but I can't get my blue pilots to fire their guns at other planes. I've even sicked them onto planes with no armament, but they just fly around them looking stupid. Any one else having this happen.?

Don Thomas

[CV32: Edited]

Hi all, re the latest couple of HCWW data bases (090605 &090618). I like the idea of playing back in WW2 with out all them there modern stuff, but I can't get my blue pilots to fire their guns at other planes. I've even sicked them onto planes with no armament, but they just fly around them looking stupid. Any one else having this happen.?

Don Thomas

 

I noticed this in a recent test scenario. Are the Red aircraft attacking air-to-air?

Hi all, re the latest couple of HCWW data bases (090605 &090618). I like the idea of playing back in WW2 with out all them there modern stuff, but I can't get my blue pilots to fire their guns at other planes. I've even sicked them onto planes with no armament, but they just fly around them looking stupid. Any one else having this happen.?

Don Thomas

 

I noticed this in a recent test scenario. Are the Red aircraft attacking air-to-air?

yes they are. anything with more than a pop gun shoots down spitfires and mustangs by the hand ful.

I'll have a closer look, I'll try using different planes including german etc planes with blue side and see what I can find.

Don.

yes they are. anything with more than a pop gun shoots down spitfires and mustangs by the hand ful.

I'll have a closer look, I'll try using different planes including german etc planes with blue side and see what I can find.

Don.

 

That's very telling. We may have a code issue here. Try and get a savegame if possible.

yes they are. anything with more than a pop gun shoots down spitfires and mustangs by the hand ful.

I'll have a closer look, I'll try using different planes including german etc planes with blue side and see what I can find.

Don.

 

That's very telling. We may have a code issue here. Try and get a savegame if possible.

 

 

Didn´t notice such a Problem while creating the basic models for my HC-35to50-DB, so one of the newer changes in code might cause the trouble?

 

I´ve created the Guns as Gun Payload.....

 

But i didn´t check anything the last months due to too much work ....

yes they are. anything with more than a pop gun shoots down spitfires and mustangs by the hand ful.

I'll have a closer look, I'll try using different planes including german etc planes with blue side and see what I can find.

Don.

 

That's very telling. We may have a code issue here. Try and get a savegame if possible.

 

 

Didn´t notice such a Problem while creating the basic models for my HC-35to50-DB, so one of the newer changes in code might cause the trouble?

 

I´ve created the Guns as Gun Payload.....

 

But i didn´t check anything the last months due to too much work ....

I don't have a saved game, I'll look athat but will need to provide battleset, scenario and game (and modified database see below).

I've made a battleset (as DBWW won't work on standard battlesets, correct?) and a simple scenario with a germ carrier in the english channel. On board (and set in CAP formation) are fighters from germany, japan and USA and some recon planes.

From London I have brit, US, japanese and german fighters and light fast bombers (with AA).

I've also modified a sopy of the data base to use german guns on one UK plane and a copy of a german gun with attributes changed to look like a UK gun.

I find that only planes with german guns (or copies of german guns) conduct proper Air to air combat (actually fire). I also tried changing some of the UK guns to look like german guns but they didn't seem to work.

I'm assuming there are some attributes of the 'weapons' that don't show up in the normal PE editor editing window but this seems unlikely? It could be me!

In any case it doesn't seem to be who is playing but what guns (cannons) are fitted.

Also, planes seem to think they have an AA range of 3 miles (no matter what their guns) and if ordered to engage a plane at less than this they ask for permission to fire guns only but do not alter thier "course" nor record in their info window the target and if more than the actual gun range just keep plodding on. If they have german guns they will fire in self defence or if the enemy gets within range.

Planes ordered to attack outside the 3 mile range (if they have an exact fix) will behave as if in a dog fight whether or not they have operating (ie german or other) guns.

I'll try to get something saved to illustrate this but perhaps "those who look at code" might think of something from this (perplexing) summary.

Don Thomas

I don't have a saved game, I'll look athat but will need to provide battleset, scenario and game (and modified database see below).

 

Okay, never mind the savegame then. I will come up with one.

 

I find that only planes with german guns (or copies of german guns) conduct proper Air to air combat (actually fire). I also tried changing some of the UK guns to look like german guns but they didn't seem to work.

 

Very odd. The 'Allied' and 'Axis' airborne guns are created in the DB in the exact same fashion, so again this leads me to believe there is a code issue related to computer controlled (AI) gun intercepts.

 

Also, planes seem to think they have an AA range of 3 miles (no matter what their guns) and if ordered to engage a plane at less than this they ask for permission to fire guns only but do not alter thier "course" nor record in their info window the target and if more than the actual gun range just keep plodding on.

 

The 3 mile issue is related to the hard coded air to air gun for 'Intercept' missions in HCE. Unfortunately for WWII databases and scenarios, there is no way around this for now.

I find that only planes with german guns (or copies of german guns) conduct proper Air to air combat (actually fire). I also tried changing some of the UK guns to look like german guns but they didn't seem to work.

 

I've had another fiddle and have revised my earlier findings.

Its doesn't seem to matter which planes are in control of AI it is a plane by plane (more exactly a gun by gun) issue. It isn't a matter of allied vs axis planes.

What I now find I find very interesting:

If you modify in PE the range of the guns then once it's air range is 1 mile or over it conducts proper air to air combat, below this it appears to be in dog fight (if you can assign it a target it can get to) but never fires, my assumtion is that it never gets to less than one mile range.

My question then is this 'can the GE only assign one plane group (or unit) to one exact location is is the size of that location 1 mile?' If so that is the problem I'd say.

It may also relate the something else I've seen, if you join two (or more) air units into a common air group, and they have short range air to ground weapons, the group will some times manouvre around its target but never get any unit close enough to fire. Maybe I should do a saved game to illustrate this, it'd be quite simple I think.

Hoping all this leads to something worth while, I'm concerned its taking up time for those who have (i'd assume) plenty of work already.

Don.

I've had another fiddle and have revised my earlier findings.

Its doesn't seem to matter which planes are in control of AI it is a plane by plane (more exactly a gun by gun) issue. It isn't a matter of allied vs axis planes.

What I now find I find very interesting:

If you modify in PE the range of the guns then once it's air range is 1 mile or over it conducts proper air to air combat, below this it appears to be in dog fight (if you can assign it a target it can get to) but never fires, my assumtion is that it never gets to less than one mile range.

My question then is this 'can the GE only assign one plane group (or unit) to one exact location is is the size of that location 1 mile?' If so that is the problem I'd say.

It may also relate the something else I've seen, if you join two (or more) air units into a common air group, and they have short range air to ground weapons, the group will some times manouvre around its target but never get any unit close enough to fire. Maybe I should do a saved game to illustrate this, it'd be quite simple I think.

Hoping all this leads to something worth while, I'm concerned its taking up time for those who have (i'd assume) plenty of work already.

Don.

 

 

imho we need more than anything people doing the kind of investigation you are doing. We have little time for comments without the backup but when someone puts in effort that saves us time, like you are doing, that is to be commended!

 

At Brad's behest I tried making guns from the DB work in the air to air arena yesterday and they work (in my test build) quite well outside of an annoying bug that results in more ammo being used than was fired. In 2009.036 only the 3nm internal guns Brad alluded to are supposed to work air to air but some others do via another mechanism (purely by accident, unintended and they aren't all that controllable). I'm not sure where the guns will all end up but you may have tipped the balance towards more fully implementing the air to air guns as listed in the PE, at which point we'd eliminate the 3nm internal dogfight guns in commondb battlesets.

 

If you have the inkling someday, come chat with us in IRC, if you don't run into us we can schedule a time. irc.stratsims.com, #harpgamer (see Java IRC links at http://www.harpgamer.com/ if you aren't an IRC junkie already, or try the very basic chat app at http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?a...p;showfile=281).

 

Thank you for showing an interest, there has been far too little of that the last few months (imho of course).

At Brad's behest I tried making guns from the DB work in the air to air arena yesterday and they work (in my test build) quite well outside of an annoying bug that results in more ammo being used than was fired.

 

Thanks to your post the reason for the too much ammo being used finally clicked. The code I wrote was fine but I had neglected to turn off air to air guns in the area defense code so it was firing in addition to the ordered intercept firing. A taste of the air to air guns from the MessageLog.txt

 

Logging begins. Build Date = Jun 27 2009, Build Time=14:54:20

To Go 1:23:45:45 Friendly Unit AB00(F-14T Tomcat) fired 3 x 20" ATA Gun bursts at ZY00(E-2C Hawkeye Group 0), Firing=0, LeftToFire=0.

To Go 1:23:45:34 1 enemy E-2C Hawkeye Group 0 of group (ZYA), has been shot down.

To Go 1:23:45:34 Friendly Unit AB00(F-14T Tomcat) fired 2 x 20" ATA Gun bursts at ZY00(E-2C Hawkeye Group 0), Firing=0, LeftToFire=0.

 

Yes, I modded a F-14 to carry a 24nm range 20" air to air gun to make the testing easier. Many hurdles yet to overcome (like what will happen when a plane has both missiles and guns...) but perhaps the biggest hurdles are overcome (~10 hours of coding so far on this).

Donald, I'd like to echo Tony's thanks to you for investigating this issue further. We're a very small group who are working actively on the overall HCE project, and we appreciate every bit of help we can get.

 

As Tony already indicated, we're looking at adjusting or modifying the air-to-air gun behavior to better accommodate weapons of varying performance (yes, even the fabled F-14T CannonCat, lol) so that the model is better overall, not just for WWII era databases and scenarios, but for the entire HCE simulation.

Donald, I'd like to echo Tony's thanks to you for investigating this issue further. We're a very small group who are working actively on the overall HCE project, and we appreciate every bit of help we can get.

 

As Tony already indicated, we're looking at adjusting or modifying the air-to-air gun behavior to better accommodate weapons of varying performance (yes, even the fabled F-14T CannonCat, lol) so that the model is better overall, not just for WWII era databases and scenarios, but for the entire HCE simulation.

I figured it was probably afew doing heaps of work..

Any way I note Tony tried guns and they operated , I still wonder if they has a range of less than 1 mile.? I've attached a zip with a small battleset, scenario and saved game. the game (playing blue) starts with two dog fights occuring, one between two pairs of Bf 109 B2s and the other a pair of 109 F4s. The B2s never fire but stick to each other like the proverbial. The F4s soon start shredding each other.

I should have done something like this in at the start to illustrate what I'd seen (I'll know next time).

I understand that things are always changing (my first harpoon was a dos game with only the original G

UIK battleset, a demo version at that - boy how things have changed) and little things can be important and easily missed in what must be a huge monster of a program.

I probably make a 'chat', being upside down and other side of the globe (Australia) my time tables are a bit out, but I'll keep an eye out for things I might be able to do like this.

Don.

airtoairww.zip

Trying to test the guns, and doing some research, I've find a pair of interesting sites about air guns:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/han...un/fgun-in.html

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/akandata.htm

Trying to test the guns, and doing some research, I've find a pair of interesting sites about air guns:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/han...un/fgun-in.html

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/akandata.htm

 

If you are testing the air guns I'd highly recommend using the 2009.037 build I posted a few hours back in the beta area.

To re-awake this thread.

 

I have been working on a "Pedestal" scenario that opens up with an attack on Malta. Problem is that the AI does not respond to a "guns" attack irrespective of wether bomber are escorted or not, so a 2 plane patrol of Spitfires can happily shot down 10-20 enemy planes without losses.