kcdusk

Warhorse, I am using 4.1. My data is showing the Improved Spruance has harpoons. The basic Spruance looks to be fitted with Harpoons in 77-79. I chose to ignore that, to dumb down the Spruance a bit to see how it coped anyway. I wasnt sure how good the Iran (thankyou, Iran units, I'm here all week) units were so i chose to be conservative. Re the 127mm. I might be wrong, but i'm seeing F/A(1)2 127mm ..... to me thats saying forward and aft there is a single mount of 2x127mm. So theres 2 barrrels forward and 2 barrels in the back. Maybe i'm interpreting the line of data wrong. Maybe its saying theres 1 forward and 1 aft for a total of 2? broncepulido, thanks for the Iran correction. No idea where i got iraq from. The worst part is while writing the AAR up i swore every time i had to type "Iraq" because every time i went for the "q" key i missed it! And now i find i didnt need to write iraq at all. I chose Iran as OPFOR because i had the stats at hand, no other reason. Sub verse Spruance coming in the next day or two.

So far in my Harpoon paper career, I’ve only played out single unit verse single unit engagements. Partly because I wanted to see how specific adversaries matched up, partly because I was/am still learning the rules, but mostly because tracking more than 2 units relative positions and ability to detect and maintain a contact for each unit with varying depths, heights, speeds and active or passive sensors constantly changing can be more than a full time job. But now, I’m doing something different. I’m expanding. I’m looking at a multi unit engagement. I’m thinking modern day. I’m thinking one NATO-type unit verse many OPFOR units. I’ve settled on a USA v Iraqi engagement. In the Gulf of Oman. For the good guys while I love the look of a Ticonderoga with so many armaments and advanced countermeasures, I’m going to choose the less capable Spruance class Destroyer. Also, i didnt have the game specs for the LAMP helecopter on the Spruance so i substituted in a Sea King instead, since thats something i did have at hand. It will be up against an Iraqi force of 1) Houdong (PT G), small patrol boat common in the area, not technologically advanced but carrying some sting. (Actually, this simple PT turned out to have more toys than I thought – 2G ECM and ESM). 2) Saam (FF), the pride of the Iraqi fleet (?). A Frigate to stand toe-to-toe with the Spruance, and 3) Targh (SS), an Iraqi diesel electric submarine, some mystery beneath the waves and something the Spruance might not be expecting. I am not using any Mediterranean or middle east Harpoon pack. This scenario is 100% fiction and made up in my head. The scenario and rules of engagement will have the Spruance approached by all 3 Iraqi units at the same time. The Spruance must attempt to keep them outside a 7.0nm exclusion zone (again, I don’t know if 7nm is considered close or far for an exclusion zone, or even if they are used in the real world). If a unit enters the exclusion zone then the Spruance may take reasonable action (for example despatch the Helicopter or fire a volley across a bow). The Spruance cannot shoot to kill so to speak, until fired on with intent by the Iraqi forces first. Does that sound too vague? (Yes!) Maybe this is closer to the real world than I thought! I had hoped to come up with a set of victory conditions, but settled for aiming for something realistic re the outcome and would make my mind up at the end. My initial expectations are the Houdong patrol boat approaches aggressively to provoke a response from the Spruance, the Saam Frigate enters the fight after Iraqi is fired on first (protecting its little brother Houdong) and the Targh submarine is available as a means of last resort. Weather Clear day. Sea state 2. Maximum depth Intermediate I (100m). Initial SetupSpruance travelling due north at 15kts in a recognised shipping lane with a known exclusion zone of 7nm around it to deter close range attacks. Houdong (PT) approaching from the East, range of 13nm at 30 kts. Coming in fast and aggressive to provoke a response and draw resources (Spruance’s Helicopter). Saam (FF) approaching from the North, range of 13nm at 15 kts. Approaching head on, slow and steady. Waiting to retaliate if the Spruance can be baited into tackling the PB. Targh (SS) also approaching from the East (sneaky! Creeping in behind and under the Patrol Boat), range of 13nm at 20 kts & Intermediate I depth (below the layer). A submarine is an unexpected surprise, coming in to provide late muscle if required. Detection situation This is why I’ve steered clear of multi unit engagements. I’ve just calculated initial radar ranges, radar LOS, ESM and sonar between the units (14 separate calculations) to get a picture of whom can see who and when. I hope no one changes speed, because all 14 calcs will need to be re-worked! Action Stations! 0:00 Spruance travelling N 15kts. ESM detection starts at 13nm (90%) for PB & FF (contact, contact. Bearing and emitter type known). Houdong PB travelling W at 30kts. ESM detection starts at 16nm (90%, contact bearing and emitter type). Saam (FF) travelling S at 15kts. ESM detection starts at 16nm (90%, no contact). Targh (SS) travelling W at 20kts. No chance of detection. The Spruance is travelling at 15kts heading north in the Gulf of Oman. It picked up ESM detections at 13 nautical miles for the Frigate to the north and Patrol Boat to the East, so it knew bearing and emitter types. Readied a Sea King helicopter (because I didn’t have the LAMPs helicopter stats at hand). Both the Frigate and Patrol boat had detected the Spruance at 16nm and were moving in to force a confrontation. The Frigate was moving at 15kts heading south while the Patrol Boat was taking an aggressive posture, steaming in at 30kts making straight for the Spruance. In the background, lurking, is the Targh submarine coming in at 10kts behind the patrol boat. 3 minutes The Spruance continued to monitor the ESM on both contacts, but nothing was showing on radar yet. The Iraqi Frigate and Patrol boat both picked up the Spruance on their radars at a range of 11.5nm. The Targh continued to move in silently but registered no contacts. 6 minutes At a range of 10nm the Spruance picked up the inbound Frigate and Patrol Boat on radar (range was now known due to additional radar information). Range had closed to 10nm and both contacts were approaching the 7nm exclusion zone rapidly. The Spruance radios to both Iraqi ships to change course to avoid the exclusion zone. The Sea King is tasked to fly out 7nm ahead of the Spruance and hold position to mark the beginning of the exclusion zone in front of the Spruance. Both Iraqi ships continue to move in. I had intended the Patrol Boat to be the aggressor by having it move in fast, however I hadn’t counted on the closing speed of the Spruance and Frigate also being 30 kts. So I had the Sea King fly forward towards the larger, likely more dangerous target to mark the exclusion zone. 9 minutes The Spruance radios a second, final warning over the radio which is ignored. The Sea King is within 1.5nm of the Frigate and makes a positive visual ID. Both Iraqi ships continue to move in and the range to both is now 8.5nm. 12 minutes The Spruance and Iraqi ships are now at 7.0nm and look like entering into the exclusion zone. 3 radio warnings have been given and the Sea King has made itself known to the Frigate with no affect on course. The Sea King is 2nm from the Iraqi Frigate. 15 minutes The Spruance fires a single 127mm round warning shot across the bow of the oncoming Frigate. The Sea King reports no change to the Frigates course but notes a speed change down to 5kts. Meanwhile the Patrol boat continues to speed in at a menacing 30kts. Range to the Frigate is 6.5nm so it is clearly inside the exclusion zone while the Patrol boat is 5.5nm distant and closing faster than the Frigate. I decided to keep the Helecopter near the Frigate believing the Frigate would likely be co-ordinating with the smaller patrol boat. Also, i couldnt have the helectoper flying from one target to the next depending on who was closer at the time. At this point I put myself in the Captain of the Spruance’s shoes. Firing on any Iraqi boat first because they had entered the exclusion zone and potentially starting a conflict (even a minor skirmish with live fire) is a big call. At the same time he had allowed two known enemy units to close on his position and despite radio calls, a helicopter and a shot across the bow of the Frigate, he had allowed both ships to enter the 7nm exclusion zone. Regardless of what happens next, he is going to have to explain to higher-ups how he allowed such a situation to occur. I'd imagine allowing enemy carft inside the exclusion zones would required some sort of "please explain". Looking back, more effort should have been made before the Iraqi forces breached the zone, but due to the radar los being limited to 10nm not allot of time was available. 18 minutes With the Frigate 5.5nm from the Spruance, the Spruance orders the Sea King to fire both its Penguin missiles on the Frigate, which it does. The Frigate has no ECM so the chance of the penguins hitting home is quite high (80%). Amazingly, the Frigates anti-air guns work miracles. With only a 10% chance of hitting, the 20mm guns hit one Penguin at long range and another at short range. However both penguins qualified for the 3-second rule and the Frigate is subject to two airbursts rather than direct hits. 8 critical hits are scored resulting in the Frigates ESM being knocked out, as well as 4 of its weapon systems. At the same time the Spruance fires 2 Sea Sparrows from its aft launcher towards the fast approaching Patrol Boat. The Patrol Boat protects itself with twin 30mm fire, both miss. With a 53% chance of hitting, a single Sea Sparrow slams into the Patrol boat and despite only doing 6 points of damage, its enough to sink the Patrol boat immediately. While not taking part in any action yet, the Submarine is 9nm to the East of the Spruance and has not been detected. 21 minutes The Sea King having fired both its Penguins is ordered to stand off and observe the Frigate from a distance of 2nm. The Spruance is unable to fire Sea Sparrows at the Frigate due to their aft facing. So two 127mm rounds are fired at the Frigate, both missing. The Frigate returns fire with two C802 missiles which both hit home, the Spruance struggling to defend itself due to aft facing Sea Sparrows not being able to be used to shoot down the incoming missiles. Also, the Iraqi Frigate has third generation missiles to fire against the Spruance’s second generation electronic counter measures, which are defeated. 28 points of damage is done to the Spruance but no critical hits occur. 24 minutesThe Spruance turns to face East, allowing its aft facing sea sparrows a chance to fire on the wounded Frigate. 8 sea sparrows are unleashed, 6 hit home, causing untold damage to the frigate. Two 127mm rounds are also fired, one hitting, sinking the Frigate. The Iraqi frigate is able to fire another two C802 at the Spruance however both miss. Unknown to the Spruance the Targh is lurking 8nm away and the submarine is about to start hunting. Observations so far For each unit in the engagement you need to know what weapons it has, which arc they cover, and if they are offensive only or defensive (& if so against what kind of incoming). Its no use heading towards an enemy unit and then finding your main asset (in this case Sea Sparrows) fire in an aft arc. I had protection behind the Spruance, while the enemy was in front! The Spruance is listed as having forward and aft 127mm guns. I think its 2 barrel’s, so if both forward 127mm are fired I assume two to hit rolls (or do you just double damage if you hit with a single roll)? Being a small boat can be useful, moreso than raw radar range. Radar LOS limits radar range. It appeared in this scenario that the smaller boats had the advantage over the medium sized Spruance because they were able to detect its ESM and on radar first. The Spruance had longer ranged radar but was more than cancelled out by Radar LOS and smaller foes. I’m glad there were few speed changes. Re-working detection ranges (especially active or passive sonars) takes allot of time. Not so much with radar or ESM which can be done at the outset of a scenario. The Spruance is damaged, but not too badly. There is still an enemy diesel submarine out there looking for it. Throughout i've realised i've made some rules mistakes, but thats ok. I write everything down as i go, stepping out rules, decisions, speeds, to hit calculations, sonar calculations etc etc so if i stop at any time i can pick up the game and know what the situation is and what step i am up to. This write up has simply been a "summary" of the action Its taken a few hours to get to this point. I've got some notes i need to go through to specifically look up some rules and make my own cheat sheets to make calculations easier/quicker. Sub verse Spruance should be done early next week.

Thanks CV32. Your right, an already deployed towed array would help! So would the hele, maybe thats what i need to try next. Sorry for my ingnorance, where would the Tactics 101 article be published? Do your write for naval Reviews, your own website or something?

One of Russias first nuclear submarines, a Victor III, is 23.0 nautical miles behind an American Perry class surface ship. The range of 23 miles is the outer range that the stationary Victor can detect the Perry which is travelling at 20 knots. The chance is 25% and detection is made. The Victor dives below the layer and increases speed to 30kts. While travelling at this speed the Victor is blind to the Perrys movements. The Victor decides to travel at 30kts for 1 hour before slowing to 5kts, coming above the layer and checking the position hoping to find himself about 13 miles behind the Perry if her speed and course remains unchanged. The Perry continues on its speed and course for 57 minutes, when she slows to 15 kts and changes course to be heading back towards the Victor. At this time the range is 13.0nm however the situation the Victor was expecting to find is much different, with the Perry now heading towards him … The detection game begins again at 13nm, and combatants unknowingly closing on each other. 0:00 Range 13.0nm. Perry unable to detect. Victor passive sonar (25%) fails. 0:03 Range 12.0nm. Perry unable to detect. Victor (25%) fails. 0:06 Range 11.0nm Perry unable to detect. Victor (50%) fails. 0:09 Range 10.0nm Perry unable to detect. Victor (50%) fails. 0:12 Range 9.0nm Perry unable to detect. Victor (50%) fails. 0:15 Range 8.0nm Perry unable to detect. Victor (50%) fails. 0:18 Range 7.0nm Perry unable to detect. Victor (50%) Success for bearing and type (surface contact). Classification (35%) no data. 0:21 Range 6.0nm. Perry (random movement called for) slows and starts to deploy towed sonar (assume experimental towed passive sonar on the Perry). It takes 21 minutes to deploy. Perry slows to 5kts while deploying sonar. Victor continues at 5kts trying to get better resolution. During detection the Perry still has no chance of detecting the Victor (max range is 2.25nm). The Victor has a 25% chance due to slower speed of Perry, with a +15% for maintaining detection (looses contact). 0:28 Range 5.5nm. Victor fails detection. 0:31 Range 5.0nm. Victor has 50% + 15% to gain contact, success. Classification 35% (no data). 0:34 Range 4.5nm. Victor 65% maintain contact, fails. 0:37 Range 4.0nm. Victor 65%, contact made, classification: exact, classified as Perry. 0:40 Range 3.5nm. Victor decides to fire 2 torpedoes. 1 set at fast (8.3nm/40kts), 1 set at slow (13.5/24). At this point the Victor does not know range to the target. Victor looses contact. Perry 25% to detect Victor (fail), torpedo fired detection (fail). 0:43 Range 3.0nm to Victor/1.25nm to fast torp/2.0 to slow torp. Perry towed sonar is deployed does not detect anything. Victor regains contact. 0:46 Range 2.5/torpedo at target/0.5nm. Fast torpedo reaches the Perry without detection meaning NO countermeasures are deployed. 2G torpedo without wire guidance has 60% chance of hitting, misses. 0:49 Range 2.0nm/2nd torpedo reaches Perry. Victor slips beneath the layer. Perry makes evasive manoeuvrer with towed sonar still deployed (increases speed to 25kts, Changes course 90 degrees). Torpedo has 23% chance of hitting and misses. 0:52 Range 3.5nm. Perry continues at 25kts to vacate the area. Victor cruses at 5kts trying to maintain contact. Perry is blind. Victor 90% chance and maintains contact. Fires 2 x fast torpedoes (40kts). 0:55 Range 5.0nm/3.0nmx2 Perry 25kts. Victor maintains contact. Torp 1 & 2 40kts. 2.0nm travelled 0:58 Torpedo range 2.5nm, 4.0nm travelled. 0:61 2.0nm, 6.0nm travelled 0:64 1.5nm, 8.3nm travelled and range reached. Torpedoes end route. The Perry continues out of the area. Victor continues to crawl along at slow speed. I have not done any work with helecopters. The Perrys helectoper and sonar bouys would likely add to the encounter. Observations and comments Submarines moving slowly with anechoic coating are very difficult to detect until very short ranges. Even at long range where there is a low (25%) chance of detection, the maximum range of detection is often under 2 nautical miles (again, LONG range). Submarines detecting a surface contact with passive sonar do not know the range to the surface contact, making choosing to set torpedoes at high speed (short range) or low speed (long range) a critical tactical decision. Ships can outrun or at least outlast a pursuing torpedo if they detect it in time. Ships under fire from submarine torpedoes should increase speed to 25+kts & change direction to perform an evasive manoeuvre which reduces the torpedo hit chance. At that speed, the ship is blind to detecting passively or actively the submarine which has fired. The ship should look to exit the area at high speed before returning at slow speed to search the area for the submarine (effectively re-setting the game). Knowing how far to run at high speed, when to reduce speed and return to search the area is a crap shot. The submarine is often able to track the surface ship during all this time. At least after clearing the area and returning at slow speed to actively search the area the surface ship has returned the game to an even state where both sides have a chance to detect the other. Luck plays an important part in a surface ship detecting a submarine. About the only time the state of play is even is if a submarine is travelling quickly to reach or keep up with an active unit. The Perry has a helicopter capable of searching for submarines which I chose not to use since I haven’t used helicopters and dropping sonar buoys yet. I can see the helicopter would search, find and track the submarine so the Perry could return knowing ranges etc to the submarine and fire if able. Given this, submarines get to strike first against the surface target. After that, the initiative would shift to the Perry and helicopter team.

If a ship or submarine is using both active and passive sonar, do you roll once for active and again for passive, or do you roll once and apply the single die result against the chances for active/passive detection?

(gulp) Your have a weekly wargaming group?!?!

DB's?

Scenario question in two parts. 1. Has anyone put together any pirate type scenarios, with any special rules (ROE, ID'g ship, safe zones)??? 2. Does anyone have any generic "pirate ship" type stats or comments? I really dont have anything myself except being small, no countermeasures and likely nothing heavier than light AA armaments.

When "grading" a weapon platform (plane, ship, submarine), what is more important? Offensive ability (radar, weapon range, etc) or defensive ability (ECM, ACM, ect)? I'm going with defensive ability being more important.

I worry that in relation to other games i've been involved in, the time investment for players and especially a referee is massive just tracking unit movements even where there are only a small number involved. I'd hate to think of the complexaties in managing a game with even 5+ units. Maybe its just my own learning curve wiht H4.1, but i rarely have more than 3 units in any of my engagments. Full credit to you or anyone who can track more than that! Some of the options look like there'd be quite a few units involved. But i liked the list of options.

I've only just voted. I think a forum based game has big benefits over email, massive benefits. Theres so much cold war/hypothetical current day stuff to be gamed. I am interested in WWII scenarios, but its a distant second. I didnt realise you could vote more than once per topic. I have the embarrasment of joining a game, loosing interest over time, and then forgetting completely to go back and check the forum after returning from holidays and only now realising its been a month or more since i checked in (sorry :-( ).

Working out the GCS for a pilot armed with a pistal now, to game out the TRAP pmaidof.

Situation Libya. Present day. A French Jaguar has been tasked with destroying a bridge. In game terms, the bridge is a medium sized target with 100dp. The Jaguar is armed with 5 x EU3 450kg free fall bombs and has a ballistic bombsite. Each 450kg bomb inflicts 41points of damage. A single hit could potentially make the bridge unusable, 2 hits would almost guarantee making the bridge unusable and had a good chance of destroying it. 3+ hits would destroy the bridge. Pre-flight planning A horizontal bomb run is safer than a dive bomb attack. However during the pre-flight planning phase it was discovered that a horizontal bomb run yielded just a 6% chance of having a single bomb hit the bridge. This was deemed too low a probability of not taking out the bridge, so planning moved to a dive bomb set. A dive bomb plan was worked out with the following probabilities Low dive bomb run 85% for 1 hit, 57% for 2 hits, 24% for 3 hits, 5% for 4 hits and 1% chance of 5 hits.. Medium dive bomb run 67% for 1 hit, 27% for 2 hits, 6% for 3 hits and 1% for 4 hits. It was agreed a low dive bomb pass was required to provide the best chance of success, given 2 hits were seen as the minimum necessary. A low dive bombing run would place the aircraft in some danger if the bridge was defended. Current intelligence suggested no fixed defences were near the bridge. Outcome The single Jaguar approached the target and at 5.0nm visually identified the bridge. Closing further on the target there was no AA detected. Approaching release point a "gun truck" was noticed on the bridge. Committed too far, the Jaguar completed its bomb run. 5 x 450kt free fall bombs were released, resulting in two hits against the bridge. Peeling away, looking out the rear of his canopy the pilot noted the bridge was still standing, though likely unusable except for foot traffic. Tracers arced up ... of the 30mm type ... eventually finding him. Shredded wing. Crashing glass. Blasting wind as he ejects ...

I guess i was trying to positively identify the torpedo using a chart or rule - i thought that was what the rule was trying to say. But sure, a loud contact moving at 55kts sure sounds like a torpedoe. 4.4.8 specifically says a ship will not engage in evasive manouvers or speed up to outrun a torpedoe because its such a "noisy" thing to do, so without positive ID a contact cannot do it. I wasnt sure how else people were interprehting this.

Instead of a new thread, i'm adding my latest submarine engagement to here. I've just finished playing through one of the best engagements i've ever had. An LA class submarine began 30.0nm from a soviet Krivak IV frigate which was travelling away from the submarine at 20kts. The LA class sub detected the Krivak and gave pursuit. After 2 hours the distance was down to 6.0nm however neither unit had detected the other. The LA class sub had lost contact due to travelling so fast (30kts) to catch the Krivak. Over the next 18 minutes both units were travelling slowly. The LA class trying to detect passively while the Krivak was searching actively. It took 18 minutes for the LA Class sub to detect and classify the Krivak, and get a good TMA solution for firing. Range was still 6.0nm when the LA class fired a fast moving torpedo (55kts with a range of 10.0nm) and a slow moving torpedo (40kts but with a range of 16.5nm). I decided to fire one of each because i wasnt sure if the fast moving torpedo would reach the target within its 10.0nm range. It had been exhausting doing all the math and record keeping up to this point trying to close the distance to the Krivak, gain, maintain and classifying a contact and then trying to work out if it was worth closing the distance of 6.0nm to the target. Closing the distance made it easier to maintain detection and was better for the torpedoes (closer range and less time for the Krivak to run), but getting too close meant if contact was lost it would be harder to re-aquire. I decided to keep my distance from the Krivak and rely on having 3 turns to reaquire before loosing the +15% maintain contact bonus. Eventually at the 2 hour 18 minute mark the Krivak was classified, a good TMA gained and two torpedoes were fired. I thought the hardwork had been done and it was just going to be a matter of working out if the torpedoes hit and if so, what damage was done. However, the Krivak detected the torpedo launch and sped up to 30kts. And this is where the scenario got interesting. At the time it frustrated me that more number cruching was needed, but by the end it was all worth it. The high speed 55kts torpedo reached the Krivak. Before determining the hit chance i worked out the distance run by the torpedo and it worked out to be 11.0nm! Meaning the torpedo expired before reaching the Krivak. The slow speed 40kts/16.5nm torpedo continued the chase and eventually caught the Krivak. Tentatively i worked out the length of the torpedo run and it came to 16.0nm! So the fleeing Krivak was caught just in time. The hit chance was 55%. And the torpedo missed. I've paused the engagement there for now. Lots of fun. I didnt realise how close some of the decisions would turn out to be re distances and speeds. I only round distances to the nearest 0.1nm, maybe i need to be more precise in future. Questions and comments: 1. 4.4.8 says torpedoes must be classified before a ship can take evasive manouvers or deploy countermeasures. The Krivak detected a contact using its active sonar (bearing and range only). I assumed the Krivak would be able to determine speed of the contact eventually at 55kts and "assume" it was a torpedo - this was logical to me. But maybe not in spirit of the rules. How does a ship using active sonar classify a torpedo, as far as i know it can only do that possively using its passive sonar. 2. The decision a submarine has to make to either close with a target (makes detection easier, TMA easier and better for fast torpedoes) or keep some distance (makes reaquiring a lost target easier and makes its own detection harder) is a toughy. But i guess thats what its all about. 3. A PC version of Harpoon would be good. But i enjoy being able to see what ranges and likelyhoods are for detecting and hitting contacts rather than just relying on being told by a radar or sonar in a computer game. You gain a much better understanding of why things do or dont happen when playing with the paper rules. It takes a bit longer but i am getting better and quicker at knowing what factors are involved and doing the maths.

Yeahh, well there you go. I have no idea where i got the idea the F-15 was a naval platform. I've always thought it was a big plane to be on a carrier, but also clung to the misguided idea that it was. Thanks CV.

My favourite aircraft (solely based on childhood impressions) is either the Tornado or the F-15E Strike Eagle, depending on what day it is. For kicks i just worked through a comparison of an F-15 and an F-18 attacking a soviet Kresta to see what differences there would be, if any. The result was: there were lots of differences! Both the F-15 and F-18 approached the Kresta at Medium height. The F-18 Detected the Kresta before being detected itself Fired its Harpoon from a range outside the range of the Krestas air defenses The Harpoon was very difficult for the Krestas air defenses to shoot down The Harpoon does much more damage than the F-15's Mavericks. The F-15 Was detected by the Kresta before the F-15 detected its target (although both detected each other well outside eithers ability to fire) Had to approach (just) within the Krestas anti-air defence systems to fire its armament, possibly putting itself at risk The AGM-65 (Maverick) was much easier for the Kresta to shoot down than the harpoon, but was still a good chance to impact The Maverick (27 damage points) does not do as much damage as the Harpoon (60 damage points) which the F-18 carries. I chose to arm the Strike Eagle with Mavericks because their range (13nm) meant they could fire from the very extreme of the Krestas air defences, whereas the Paveway could do more damage (72 or 55 damage points depending on type) but range was only 6.0nm. Using my sample size of 1 (!), it was no comparison. The F-18 when attacking a surface target like this was better in every respect. It was impossible to shoot the Hornet down, it was highly probable the Hornets armament would strike the Kresta and do allot more damage than the Strike Eagle was able to do. American aircraft carriers accomodate both F-18's and F-15's. Given the F-18 is such a better aircraft in the sea attack role, what role does the F-15 play? The F-15E is almost a second rate fighter and second rate ground attack platform, so maybe its seen as an "all rounder" nowadays? The F-15 can carry up to 6 missiles so maybe its better suited to a ground attack role like (multiple) smaller target tanks, aircraft hangers and bunkers.

Has anyone got any engagements or home made scenarios, possibly with some special rules or starting conditions, using a small number of units?

Thanks for the explaination Hud3. Makes sense. Although you lost me at "The length of an arc ..." in your easier understanding post!

Question 1 4.3 ESM (electronic support measures) is a passive form of radar detection. I noticed some submarines have it listed as a sensor. Does this mean Submarines can use it to detect planes? Question 2 ESM Detection appears on the Sonar Range Modifier page (4 - 11) with a +20% classification. Is this tied to the above question? Can submarines classify planes using ESM? I find it difficult to understand the +20% modifier if ESM is passive Question 3 I'm having difficulty interpreting the 6.1.3 TMA lost contact table. So if a contact is 2.0nm away and you loose contact for 1 turn, you start the TMA again? But if the target is at 18.0nm if you regain contact within 4 tactical turns you do not need to re-do TMA? This reads like the further away from a target you are the easier it is to re-establish the TMA without needing to start the process again which is the opposite to what i would have thought. Have i read it correctly? If not can anyone explain the logic?

Hey guys. I've been gaming out some surface action with frigates and patrol boats, and have some up with some questions. 1. Critical hit to a ship calls for sensor damage. 7.3.2.11 Sensors says an operational sensor has been knocked out and can include a periscope if occuring to a submarine. Do sensors include all radars and sonars? (I'd say yes) Do sensors include ECM, RWR, ACM? (I dont know? But am leaning towards yes - they're a sensor right?) 2. Page A-45 Data Annex lists Project 1234 Nanuckka as having P-120 Malakhit. Looking the stats up at chapter D it has "N200" in the remarks, what does this mean? And at the top of the same page in D it lists NATA Sea Sparrow as "SSC" in the remarks. What does SSC mean? SS means surface skimmer so is SSC used in the same context, ie its SS and C which is "each director ... 4 targets with 2 missiles"? 3. OH Perry (A-27) the first weapon listed is a mk13 w/40 //1 Mk92. I cannot find this weapon in Chapter D. Any ideas? Any help appreciated.

A-10 Thunderbolt/Warhog verse ground targets An American A-10 thunderbolt descended from high altitude after spotting a convoy of vehicles clearly visible from the dust they were kicking up across the desert floor, and made ready to do a fly over in order to positively identify the potential target. Mistakes, blue-on-blue fire, had happened before. So while none of these vehicles were transmitting the identify friend or foe electronic beep expected from friendlies, no chances were taken. Passing overhead at 340kts, the pilot confirmed a convoy of Russian armoured personnel carriers, light and heavy tanks and a single AAA half track. The vehicles scattered across the desert sand floor as the A-10 performed its flyover. Each vehicle hoping to distance itself from the others in the hope it wouldn’t be targeted as part of the larger group. Overhead, the warthog wheeled around to make its first “hot” pass. Random chance saw the A-10 straighten up, slow to 300kts and have 3 heavy tanks aligned roughly 10 miles along its flight path. They were slow moving, small sized targets. When the first tank was at 4 miles, an AGM-65 was released. With an 85% chance of hitting, 25 seconds later the single missile ploughed into the sand near the tank, not close enough to do any damage. Undeterred, the A-10 fired a second AGM-65, this time at the 3rd tank in line, and watched as that tank was hit square and centre, disappearing in a cloud of dust. Rising to medium altitude, the A-10 circled and readied for another pass. It still had 4 x AGM-65’s left, and even the 30mm gun in its nose could wreak havoc against the tanks weak top armour presented from its firing position overhead. For its second pass chance had a medium tank and a heavy tank in the A-10s next attack run. First AGM-65 away … its scores! Second AGM-65 away … and another hit! 3 out of 4 AGM-65s having found their mark. The precision-guided bombs were as accurate as advertised. Unbeknown to the A-10, a 23mm anti air gun opened up during its last attack run but sent its sausage sized bullets far, far wide. On its 3rd run, the last two Maverik-65’s were released, hitting a small APC and just managing a hit against a large tank. The APC would be vaporised, the large tank was not hit flush but was expected to be found destroyed after the dust cleared. Again, the Russian 23mm AAA opened up at long range but was not able to hit the nimble A-10. However this time as every 5th tracer passed close by, the Warthogs crew knew they were now being fired upon. Having expended all of its 6 Mavericks, for 5 confirmed kills. The A-10 considered a gun run verse heading for home (not pushing its luck verse the anti air gun). It had been a successful day - but the flyboys were not done yet. They wanted to try their own 30mm gun against ground targets! The Warthog wheeled around and found itself on a strafing run at low altitude with a lone heavy tank in its sights. The aircraft bombing table on page 6-12 shows the warthogs internal cannon has a 60% chance of hitting a small target (heavy tank). The A-10 looses air speed from its own cannon recoil, the 30mm ammunition arcing down and finding their target. The cannon has a damage rating of “12” while the heavy tank can sustain “8” damage points (from page 6-20 General attack table), hence the A-10 destroys a heavy tank before turning for home. Despite having 30mm ammunition left over the A-10 heads for home rather than risking a lucky strike by the lone Russian AA gun.

HMAS Adelaide, a small Australian frigate was steaming along in open waters west of Japan, suspects a Russian T-22 Backfire was out there somewhere, stalking her. The Captain of Adelaide had a choice to make re activating his radar. If he activated his air search radar, he was likely to detect the large aircraft anywhere out to 300 nautical miles away (in actual fact, the radar LOS reduced detection range to 232nm). However, turning on his search radar also meant his ship possibly would be picked up by the searching aircrafts ESM and allow the bomber to home in on his signal. It was an easy decision to make, keep the radar off and make the plane find him. Even if his ship had been able to locate the bomber, he had no weapons able to bring the aircraft down. Instead he would continue on blind, and allow his own passive ESM to detect the planes surface search radar. And hope he wasn’t able to be located in the vast ocean. The Captain of the Adelaide, not being familiar with his Russian foe, was not aware the Backfire had a simple radar warning receiver (RWR) which was only able to detect fire control radars. If the Adelaide had activated its search radar, it would not have given his position away. After hours of searching, the Tu-22 had come across many contacts requiring at least a limited amount of investigation. This used up valuable fuel as the Backfire trekked across the sky, and less fuel translated to less time on station searching. A new contact appeared on the radar, bearing 270 degrees at a range of 100nm, and the Tu-22 turned to investigate. For many minutes now, Adelaides ESM had detected a PNA Beat Down class search radar and knew the Backfire must be getting close. The bearing of the signal changed markedly. Was this a change of direction in the Tu-22 grid search pattern? Or was the Backfire onto something? The Captain of the Adelaide had another decision to make. If he had been “made’, he needed to activate his radar in order to identify incoming missiles and engage them as best he could. However if he had not been found, activating his radar may just give his position away. By not activating his radar it could mean any incoming missiles were first seen as they crossed his ships hand railing! The Tu-22 closed on the so far unidentified target. Range was inside 81 nautical miles, well within range of its AS-4 Kitchen guided missile. However the contact was not giving off any radar emissions to identify it by. It could be a fishing boat? Or a whale? Or a “blind” warship whose Captain was either stupid, or very smart? The Blackjack was now 40nm from its contact. The Adelaide didn’t know this, relying on passive ESM meant only transmitter type and bearing was known. The Blackjack knew it had passed within the 70nm mark because that was its weapons shortest engagement range. The Tu-22 was relying on the contact activating a radar and identifying itself one way or the other, or the Tu-22 had to get within 14 miles to identify the contact via visual means. The Bombers pilot was not happy, he had no way to engage the target if it was hostile as he was too close. And getting within 14 miles of a warship left himself open to counter attack. The Backfire closed within 14nm and the pilot was thankful for the cloudless day and smooth seas allowing him uninterrupted views. The contact was a ship, its wake clearly visible, and it took only a few more moments to positively identify the ship as the Adelaide. Its target had been found! An alarm suddenly blared inside the cockpit of the Blackjack. The Adelaide had spotted the Backfire barely a minute earlier. Immediately the Adelaides air search radar went active, and painted the Blackjack causing its radar warning receiver to sound. Aboard the Adelaide three SM1MR Block III anti air missiles were dispatched, streaking from their launch mechanism at a rate of 1650kts they would take little more than a minute to reach the Backfire even at its high altitude. The Backfire turned to run, knowing it was hopelessly outpaced. SM1MR Block III ata rating 4.0 subtract Backfire 0.5 = 3.5. Further modifiers Attacker is below the target by more than one level, +1.0 defender (2.5) 3G J verse 2G missile +2.0 defender (0.5) 3G D verse 2G missile +2.0 defender (-1.5) Final result of –1.5 means 15% chance of a missile hitting the Backfire. Die rolls are 13, 87 and 18. The Backfire is shot down with the first missile. An outcome I didn’t see coming.

No, probably not. It just occurred to me while i was playing out some jet on jet action that the medium range sparrows meant one side could fire at long range, before the 5nm dogfight rules kick in, and not be in danger. Then i remembered reading as a kid about the F-14 having the Phoenic missile and the range that had (40nm). I bet theres more modern stuff out there now with even longer range. Good point re stealth though. That could close the range in. Or in a confused environment, needing "visual" before being able to fire.

With the range of modern radars and air to air missiles increasing, does that mean that the days of aerial dog fights is over? Aircraft can often be directed to fire on a target outside radar range by an obervation plane (AWACS?), the missile dissappears over the horizon and might reach its target some 30, 40 or 60+ miles away. Just thinking aloud this probably will have a couple of impacts (no pun intended). 1. Aircraft wont even see each other in fighter engagements. 2. No "furball" fights, or old fashioned fighter skills of manourvering an aircraft 3. I'd think aircraft would still need to be "nimble", because if one of those long range missiles ever reached you, then you might end up "in a dog fight" with a missile rather than another aircraft.