kcdusk

ANy updates?

Registering general interest. Let me have a look at the specific scenario. sorry it took so long to respond, i'm here most days but dont often check this thread. I have 100 questions about pbem and how it works for H4.1, and what you have in mind.

I understand that H4.1 isnt made to deal with tactical manouvers per plane etc ... But what about "high level tactics" or "strategy". I guess i was thinking like planes at high or low levels, or just putting your unit in the best position for it to succeed (or put your enemy in its worst position), whatever that may be. I'm wondering what options there are. Its maybe even situational things. As a sub commander do you go deep-and-slow or run fast from that surface hunter? I'll try and think up some other examples or more specific questions.

Got a few AARs going up now, and discussion. Any thoughts on tactics though? I've thrown a few planes into dog fights etc, rolled the dice, played out scenarios. But no real thought to tactics. Any ideas how tactics could come into play for any scenario?

Flight Leader 4 Migs bounce your 2 Phantoms, what do you do? (anyone else remember the game “Flight Leader” from 1986 which had this quote on the box cover?). 2 x F-4F Phantom II’s go up against 4 x Mig 21F Fishbed J’s. Intro: After looking at the Radar capabilities here, its hard to believe the Migs could surprise the F-4’s. F-4 radar detects small targets out to 26.0nm while the Fishbeds only detect out to 7.0nm. But, I think these models clashed over Vietnam, so maybe the Fishbeds were talked onto the F-4’s from ground control. To gain position F-4 (2+3.5-3.5*.1)=20% Mig 21 (4+3.5-3.5*.1)=40% To score a hit F-4 3.5-3.5 = 0 = 30% Mig 21 2.5-3.5 +1 (decoys) = 0 = 30% So it looks like the Migs are going to be in a better position to get a shot off, and both aircraft have the same chance to hit. I decided to add pilot experience to the contest. USA is experienced and Nth Vietnam are novice. The effect is the F-4 gains 20% to gain position (now matches Migs 40%). The situation then is both aircraft have 40% chance to gain position and then 30% chance to hit. As we’ve seen from other dog fight AAR’s, firing first and hitting can be a great advantage because the downed plane doesn’t get the right of reply! In this case, despite the evenness on an aircraft by aircraft basis, its 4 Migs against 2 Phantoms. The Action F-4A matches up with Mig3 (random roll) F-4B matches up with Mig2 (random roll). Mig1 = F-4A (random roll) Mig2 = F-4A (random roll) Mig3 = F-4B (player decided) Mig4 = F-4B (player decided) Round 1 Die rolls to gain position 23 F-4A gains position 60 F-4B no position 96 Mig1 no position 41 Mig2 no position 74 Mig3 no position 38 Mig4 gains position Mig 4 fires first, then F-4A. Mig4 fires 2 AtA missiles, each with 30% chance of hitting (64, 79) but both miss. F-4A fires 2 AtA missles each with 30% chance of hitting (26, 68) and kills Mig3. F-4A randomly matches up with Mig2 (random roll) in the next round when trying to gain position. Round 2 F-4A = 18 gains position on Mig2 F-4B = 21 and gains position on Mig2 also (and fires before F-4A) Mig1 = 75 for no position Mig2 = 61 for no position Mig3 = downed last round Mig4 = 96 for no position. F-4B fires 2 missiles (39, 81) misses with both. F-4A fires its last 2 missiles at the same Mig and (93 and 99) it misses both also. F-4A is down to using guns next round. 69 F-4A no position 45 F-4B no position 16 Mig1 gains position on F-4A 100 Mig2 no position 96 Mig4 no position Mig1 fires 2 missiles (23, 57) and kills F-4A. 3rd round F-4A = downed in round 2 F-4B = 40 and gains position on Mig2 Mig1 = 100 for no position Mig2 = 41 for no position Mig3 = downed in round 1 mig4 = 77 for no position. F-4B is the only fighter to get into position and fires a single missile, saving one for next round. It (98) misses! 4th Round F-4A = downed in round 2 F-4B = 52 for no position Mig1 = 88 for no position Mig2 = 98for no position Mig3 = downed in round 1 Mig4 = 68 for no position. No aircraft get position 5th Round F-4A = downed in round 2 F-4B = 26 and gains position and will fire first on Mig2 Mig1 = 79 for no position Mig2 = 66 no position Mig3 = downed in round 1 Mig4 = 02 gains position on the last F-4 but will fire second. F-4 fires its last missile and (08) hits. Mig4 fires (59) and misses. So we are left with a one F-4B going up against Migs 3 and 4. 6th Round F-4B 8 gains position on Mig3 Mig3 58 no position Mig4 59 no position. F-4B has no missiles left so attacks with guns. Do I use the F-4 Gun atk: 4 for this? For example 4 - 3.5 = 0.5 = 35% of a hit? I will assume for now that is the case and (45) guns miss. Wow, 7th Round. Aircraft in a dog fight are automatically in afterburn (if they have it) due to 6.3.3.3. Without doing the math I decided all aircraft had had enough and returned home. End result was 1 x F-4 shot down, and 2 x Migs. Hard to determine a winner here. More Migs were shot down (2-1), but 50% of both sides forces were lost. I’m feeling like the draw is a minor victory for the F-4s, since at the start I thought the game was even except for the 4-2 Mig advantage. So I expected the Migs to win. They didn’t, so minor win for the Phantoms.

Silent Hunter Clearly the chance to get into firing position was the big issue (90% v 50%) for this engagement. But when the A7's fired they had a higher chance to hit but ... of the 3xA7s in position to fire (good rolling errrrr, flying) 1 rolled a 90 and missed (unlucky) and another was shot down before he could fire (arguably, unlucky), and the 3rd A7 did hit (expected). So of the 3 position to fires they only "converted" 1. And Game Over. I liked the write up. Good to see someone else using the "old" rules. PG_H4 makes a good point i would have missed. If hte A7's drop their bombs they might survive but the game is lost since the bombing aspect cant take place. CV32 ... i've missed something ... did you guys go head-to-head recently???

PG_H4 Hahaaha. Good to see others making errors, in the first phase no less. Still, i have made some earlier than that ... I wonder if aircraft have ever flown towards each other and loosened off a mass of ATA missiles at long range before a fur ball begins? It sounds more like something out of Buck Rogers. Good write up. I dont have the new combat rules (i'm just saying). Silent Hunter Comments to come.

If radar wouldnt pick up the infantry, i guess the eyeball mk1.0 would have to do the job.

Flight of the Intruder Somewhere in Europe at a future point in time, Russia has started its armour and rolled over the Third World War start line. A mixture of main battle tanks, troop carriers and support vehicles are flooding motor ways. A specific part of Europe has such a column moving along an express way. On either side are wooded hills. The valley has long been identified as a probable “approach route” and two Tornadoes assigned to buzz the area, where they will likely discover the armoured column. Soviet Forces An infantry company is leading the way 6.0nm ahead of the armoured column. This will allow me to use some infantry SAM, and the GCS rules from Sth Atlantic War. The Armoured Column consist of some APC’s (light armour), MBTs (medium), Trucks (none), AAA gun trucks and mobile SAM launchers. I will have a list and order of vehicles. NATO forces 2xTornados (Italian type from page B-5 in the data annex). Armed with 4xKormoran 2 guided missiles. Interesting because minimum range is 3.0nm. Damage points from a hit is 44pts which is enough to king hit even a heavy tank (8pts). UPDATE: I’m not using the Tornado … Kormoran is an anti-ship missile that cannot be fired over land! 2xA6 Intruders armed with 20xmk20 Rockeye cluster bombs (when choosing which weapon loadout to use, how could I not use “cluster bombs”?). I’ve always considered the Intruder a ground attack aircraft. Looking at its H4.1 capabilities, I might have been right! Its APQ-156 radar is SS, and so only capable of detecting surface and very low level contacts! Its blind to anything in the air. Shouldn’t be a problem for this scenario though. I was surprised its bombsite was only “ballistic”, given its primary ground attack role. But perhaps that’s more a sign of its age. Before taking off, the crew set the cluster bombs to a “large” pattern (6.3.4.1.5). Special conditions The Intruders will need visual LOS to confirm its target before attacking. Yes, its war, and the Soviet army is on the march. But the battle ground is also a confusing place so positive ID is required. Intruder A will fly 5.0nm ahead of Intruder B. At 550kts this means there is a 60 second gap between the two. Intruder A will locate and identify any contacts so that Intruder B can gun them up on its first pass. Intruder A may then return for its own run. Intruder A starts 20.0nm from the valley at medium altitude, and will drop to low altitude (cluster ammunitions cannot be dropped from V Low altitude) at the 5.0nm mark prior to the valley start. A horizontal laydown method will be used, hopefully on the armoured column. I know there will be a contact. A D20 roll will determine how many miles into the valley the infantry group is (with the armoured column 6.0nm behind that). AAR The lead Intruder approached the valley at Medium altitude. The D20 (7) determines the infantry are 7.0nm into the valley and the armoured column at the 13.0nm mark. The A-6 radar detects very small targets out to 31.0nm. I assumed the A-6 detects the infantry (range 27.0nm and a V Small target seems fair?) and the moving column (range 33.0nm) which is a mixture of small targets (radar range 56.0nm). Range from the lead A-6 to infantry closes to 2.0nm and 8.0nm for the column. The lead A-6 “identifies” the infantry group but is unable to positively identify the column. Dropping to low altitude the lead A-6 buzzes past the infantry, dropping 6 cluster bombs. Dive bomb table/low altitude/Vsmall target/Ballistic and referencing the Stick hit table gives 11% chance of a single hit. And it turns out to be a miss. The infantry scatter, with one better trained unit breaking out the SA-7B Grail surface to air missile, incase the intruder returns. The second A-6 has entered the playing area and is now 5.0nm from the infantry. The lead A-6 closes to 4.0nm of the column, identifying it as a target. It drops its remaining 14 cluster bombs (57% chance of a single hit and being able to move to page 6-15 Cluster munitions damage table). 2 sticks of 6 and a stick of 2 are dropped with 2 bombs finding their mark, but this turns into 6 targets hit (silent fist pump for “cluster bombs”!!!). I will assume the lead vehicle was the aim point and targets hit after that are in sequence of the convoy order. The first hit destroys the lead truck, fails to damage an APC and destroys a second APC. The second cluster bomb destroys an AAA truck, an APC escapes harm and a critical hit destroys a light tank (even after taking the cluster bombs 9 damage points, halving for anti tank and reduced damage due to cluster munitions table). I have assumed that 20 cluster bombs are dropped and hits determined using normal bomb calculations on the sticks tables. And for each hit determined from the stick table a roll is made on the cluster munitions table. This method can generate many many hits, but damage is significantly reduced so its not always a critical hit or outright kill. The trailing Intruder is fired on by the infantrys Grail SAM. The intruder has to decide whether to continue with its bombing run on the infantry target (downside being 0.5ata rating verse the SAM) or go defensive and call off the bomb run (upside is using ata of 2.0). The intruder has to go defensive, so the bomb run is called off. The Grail finds its target though, downing the trailing Intruder. The remaining Intruder returned to base having dropped its load. Despite an Intruder being shot down, the aim of the exercise was to engage the armoured column. Destroyed vehicles include a truck, AAA truck, APC and a light tank. Surviving the encounter are 2xAPCs, a light tank and 2x heavy tanks. So 4 of 9 vehicles were destroyed, however the 5 surviving vehicles were “high value” targets (such as heavy tanks). I’d call this a victory to the Soviets. Other thoughts What size target is 100 men? Its not on page 6-20 general attack table. When attacking a column of vehicles I assumed the lead vehicle is the first target. Is there any other way of doing it? Such as picking out vehicle 4 which might be a AAA truck or wouldn’t it be that easy? Or random die roll? The Grail had a 20% chance of hitting the Intruder and I rolled a 19. If the intruder had continued with its bomb run the chance of being hit would have been 35%, so by going defensive it almost halved the to hit number. But in this case it didn’t matter and it was hit anyway. It’s decisions like this, to go defensive or continue with the attack run that I think are fun to make. Although only 2 cluster bombs found there mark, they caused allot of trouble. If even one more cluster bomb had hit I think NATO would have won the encounter. If I have followed the rules correctly, cluster bombs can do allot of damage across many targets. I guess that’s why when things go wrong people call it a cluster f#ck, it means lots of damage to lots of area!

Random Musings (1) SALH type missiles (I'm looking at you, F-15's weapon loadout) as per 5.3.7 "... target must be within visual LOS of the weapon and the designator... at all times". Wow, thats tough! Instead of being able to fire when within radar LOS or at maximum missile engagement range, we're limited to "visual LOS". So a F-15 screaming in on a target needs a "visual" before it can fire? Range of two of the GBU type guided missiles are 5.0nm and 12.0nm. 4.5.2 talks about Air to Surface sightings. It mainly references "ships" but does give a target size and range table which can be used. A small target has a sighting range of 14.0nm, and (4..5.8) identifying a visual contacts exact type can occur at 50% of visual range (again, it references ships but i guess it equally applies to ground targets such as MBT's). So positively identifying a MBT can occur at 7.0nm, before maximum engagement range is reached at say 5.0nm (depending on other terrain and weather conditions). (2) Mig 29 Fulcram has an AtA rating of 5.0. WTF???? Why dont we hear more about this aircraft if its so good? Is it because it has a bad history (ie is Russian made)??? (3) Do tactics ever come into your engagements? In terms of air to air encounters for example, do you ever decide or randomly roll to see what altitude each plane starts at since it can have an effect on 1) detect or be detected 2) ability to hit or be fired on by some missiles 3) bonus's ie 6.3.3.3.4 initial position advantage (there may be others). (4) Tornado on page B-5 of H4.1 data annex has a Gun ATK: 6. I assume this is for air to air dog fights? So why is there also a 2x27mm Mauser cannons under its armaments? The stats given for the 2x27mm are for ground combat but there is also a Gun Atk of 2.9. Does this mean it has "internal guns" with 6 in a dog fight and additional "external guns" which can engage ground and/or aerial targets? (5) Some planes have Boz 102 Chaff dispensors or Cerberius Jamming Pods listed as ordinance. I know they are forms of countermeasures. But where do i find how effective they are (ie 1st or 2nd generation and Jaming or decoys?)? I couldnt see any obvious listings in the H4.1 data annex. (6) I am currently putting together a ground-attack engagement to play through, with a view to another AAR. I hoped to use a Tornado but for a few reasons i am now considering a Buccaneer or A-6 Intruder. The A-6 Warhog also might get some consideration.

Early 1985 they started. And i have a confirmed sighting of them at my mums place!

I hadnt considered chaff as a decoy ... and if i did, i thought it was more like flares. Thinking about it now though, is chaff like an explosion of small metallic particles designed to appear "large", bright and have a large radar cross section so that a missiles homes on it?

I used to have the first 20 or so of these magazines. I dont remember throwing them out, but i have been unable to find them. Did anyone else ever read these? They had great articles in them, does anyone know where similar articles might be on-line? http://www.payhost.net/aviation/acatalog/W...ues_0___9_.html

2x F-18 Hornets come up against 4x Mig-21 Fishbed J's. I didnt realise until later that these two types of aircraft are featured in the H4.1 example. Pregame The F-18, whoooa! ATA of 4.5. What a dog-fighter!!! Armed with 4xAIM-7M Sparrows which are 3rd Generation missles with an ATA of 6.5 all aspect missile. A deadly combination. Mig 21's are no slouch in the dog-fight respects, but after the Hornets ATA rating a 3.5 for the Mig seems .... pedestrian. The AA-2d Atoll are 2nd generation wide aspect missiles are rated at ATA of 2.5. Looking at the offensive capabilities here, the Migs better get the first shot against the F-18's or at best hope the F-18's dont get into a firing position because i think it might be "one shot, one kill" for the F-18's. Special conditions.This scenario assumes all aircraft are already at dog fight range. This negates the F-18's ability to fire at medium range and perhaps even up the odds before any dog fight begins. Also, at the start of each 30 second phase, a die roll of 1 on a D6 means the F-18's have hit "bingo" on their fuel and need to break off the engagement since this also potentially makes the F-18's at a disadvantage due to 6.3.3.3.3 (fleeing a dog fight). The engagement starts at high altitude. 30 seconds The Migs have a 30% chance of getting into a firing position, however none are able to. Both F-18s have a 70% chance to be in a firing position and make their rolls. The SARH (radar homing) missile of the F-18's kill chance is not affected by the Migs 2nd Generation Decoy (decoys dont work against radar homing, right?). Each F-18 fires a single missile (even though they could fire 2 missiles each, correct?) with a 60% chance of hitting. Inside the first 30 seconds and the F-18's have shot down one Mig each. And what perhaps started as an even fight has suddenly swung in the F-18s favour. 60 seconds The F-18s roll a 4 on their D6 so they have enough fuel to continue the fight. The remaining 2 Migs again fail to gain firing position. Both F-18s do gain firing position, with one shooting down a Mig with a single missile. And the fight has quickly become lop sided. 90 seconds The F-18s roll a 4 again against there fuel so are able to continue the engagement. For game purposes, the last remaining Mig chooses to run. 6.3.3.3.3 says only the "faster" aircraft can choose to run so comparing speeds and the Mig (1204kts at high altitude) is faster than the F-18s (1032kts at high altitude). So at high altitude the Mig is faster than the F-18 so it is able to flee. Interestingly i am about to roll for exit speeds and heights for the Mig based on the Mig being faster. However at Very Low altitudes the F-18 is faster than the Mig. So what altitude is "faster" based on? Where the dog fight started or ends up finishing after the random die rolls? The Mig departs at 1204 - 250 = 954kts and 5 miles from the center of the dogfight remaining at high altitude heading S. The first F-18 departs at 982kts, 8 miles from the centre of the dogfight heading NNE and the second F-18 is 832kts, 10 miles from the centre and heading North. A good result for the retreating Mig because the F-18's will need to turn around before firing. Its taken me an hour of real time to get this far which included noting down plane data, consulting rules, die rolls and writing this AAR. I am tempted to end the engagement here but decide to finish off the detail by determining if the F-18s can get a shot off on the retreating Mig. 120 seconds (I forgot to roll D6 to see if F-18's hit "bingo" on fuel this phase). The Mig continue to run and has moved an additional 4.0nm from the "centre", placing it 9 miles from the centre. Each F-18 is able to turn 180 degrees and chase the Mig, the first F-18 is 8 miles from the center but closes 4nm so is 4 miles on the other side of the centre, or 13nm from the Mig. The second F-18 finishes 6.5nm from the centre or 15.5nm from the Mig. 150 seconds F-18's roll 5 so still have fuel. Mig hits the afterburners and is able to accelerate up to 421kts from 954 to 1204kts (top speed). The first F-18 does the same and (.1x4.4x1032) accelerates up to 464kts to its top speed of 1032kts. The difference in speed (1204 - 1032) is 172kts which see's the Mig increasing the distance to the closest F-18 by 0.7nm each 15 seconds. So the range is opens up to 13.7nm with the Mig accelerating away. Seems like the fight is over, right? Well the F-18s Sparrow has a range of 31.0nm. The closest F-18 fires a single missle at a starting range of 13.7nm. The Sparrow has a speed of 2295kts and the speed differential means the Sparrow is closing at a rate of 9.0nm per 30 seconds. Range to Mig 31.0nm / rate of closer 9.0nm means it will take 3.5 x 30 second turns. Not long ... but in those 3.5 turns the Mig has travelled 17.5nm. Given the Mig started 13.7nm in front and is able to run a further 17.5nm before potential impact, it means impact takes place (13.7 + 17.5) 31.2nm from the initial firing point. And the Sparrow has a range of ONLY 31.0nm. So the Mig is able to (just) get out of range and escapes home. I didnt plan on it being that close, i had no idea where the maths would take me. After match report As good as the F-18 combo were, i didnt think it would be so one sided. Certainly the F-18s had a much higher chance of winning the encounter but they ended up with the much better die rolls also. And that killed it. It was only luck the final Mig was able to escape. I rounded some of my maths to the nearest 0.1nm thinking it didnt matter. In hindsight every inch came into play. Even though it didnt come into play, the "bingo" die roll was exciting and could have turned the tide at the start of any turn.

some sites have pdfs of equipment data. Is this what you mean? Mostly ships and planes though, not normally AAA equipemnt. I'm interested in any other answers though. www.clubi.ie/exalted/harpoon4.htm http://membres.lycos.fr/harpoon4/

Get out there and play already! I hope your not getting hung up on the fact there may be new stats or a new system on the way, and thats standing in your way of using the system you already have. Whether that be Harpoon or Command at Sea. From what i have read here the new system may be months/years away. Even when it comes out, i plan to stick to my H4.1. I still have so many encounters i want to run through. Post away Cindel, with any thoughts or questions you may have.

Your write ups are more fun to read than mine (making mental note of this). On your second attack you "dive bomb" from "low altitude". Just sounds funny. I'd need to get my rules out to check if its allowed. Why always with the Jaguars (I'm just curious)? (i have some thoughts on other threads but need time to do my own reading first).

It was a german Tornado i used from H4.1. And yeahhhhh, with some further reading i've found the Tornado has quite a selection of weapon outfits. Lob-toss is hardly worth it if you can only "throw" one bomb at a time ... you need to do 6 or more approach and throws just to drop your load. I read in a mag about a plane doing this in an African war ... i hope i can find it to confirm. I will need to be more specific where i am getting my info from, you guys have way more access to data than me & i need to be clear where mine is coming from. I still think hte Tornado is a good looking aircraft.

By aerial interceptor do you mean the F-14 intercepted bombers? And the air superiority fighter took on other figher planes? "... making it impossible to actually hit what the pilot was aiming at except with sheer luck" - some people would take those chances! :-)

OK, some more thoughts on the F-15 verse Mirage problem. The F-15 is a better fighter. Full stop. Not all fights are even though, but when they are then the better (F-15) wins. In your own example you included a ROE in where the F-15 had to visually site the Mirages first. That evens things up a bit. So even though the score was F-15's 2 Mirage 0, the odds were still with the F-15 but it was a little harder. So, what else could we do? 1) Plane on plane the F-15 will win most times. How about the old 2xF-15's verse 4xMirages? 2) Make the Pilots of the Mirages Veteran verse Novice F-15 Pilots 3) Have a victory condition. Downing a single F-15 is a win for the Mirages regardless of their own losses. 4) Have an "escape" victory condition. If the Mirages get outside a "zone" they are home free, the F-15s can no longer fire on them (draw for both sides). So the F-15's have to shoot the Mirages down inside a field of play. 5) Introduce a random chance event for the F-15's. Like each time they want to use chaff or jamming, roll a D10 and on a 9 or 10 the counter measure fails for the rest of the encounter. 6) Limit ordinance on the F-15s. 01-50 they have two missiles, and 51-00 they have one (maybe they fired the balance of their ordinance in a previous encounter). 7) Limit fuel on the F-15's by saying they cannot engage full mil power (actually, that means they couldn't take part in a dog fight). Or put a time limit on the fight. The F-15's only have enough fuel to last 3 engagement turns. Or my preference would be to make it random - the F-15's have to break off if a 5 or 6 is rolled at the start of each engagement turn after the first one due to low fuel. The F-15's can choose to fight on if they like ... but on a subsequent roll of a 6 they crash due to low fuel ... is it a risk you would take if still pursuing the kill??? 6) Combination of some of the ideas above. I'm finding that in stand alone scenarios it seems like the "better" unit wins most of the time. In the real world things are probably even more biased in favour of the better units. Huh? Rarely is it F-15 verse Mirage. If its the USA then they have some sort of spotter plane circling up high feeding information to the F-15 ... so the F-15 is a better plane, probably has the better pilots AND it gets the advantage of better eyes from a support unit in the real world. Still, as a war game, its good to find ways of using better tactics or rule conditions (ROE or victory conditions) to make the encounter interesting for both sides. Low level flight Re your comments on the Mirages flying at Low level. I found the same thing, there was no advantage to flying lower (that is it didn't decrease your chance of detection like I thought it would), and the chance of a crash was pretty high if you tried extended flying at that altitude (I just learnt terrain following radar is a must here!). Against units that don't have LD/SD radars there may be more merit in it. Even so the chance of a crash is still pretty high. Other random thoughts 1) has anyone dropped a full drop-tank of fuel onto a target? What stats did/would you use? 2) I always thought the F-14 was the most deadly plane in the air. But comparing it to the F-15 or even F-16/18 its AtA rating is lower (and i'm sure theres other examples). Is this because the F-14 was the first plane to be wayyyyy ahead of the competition and the F15/16/18's that followed improved on the F-14? So the F-14 was just the best of its time. Or is there another advantage the F-14 has I don't know about? Or was the F-14 simply the sexiest plane and overrated? 3) I'm enjoying the discussion in all the threads. Even where I have made mistakes its good to be corrected for next time, there are other comments coming out that are useful and interpretations I hadn't considered. So thanks to everyone for contributing.

you wrote "LANTIRN Nav and Targeting Pod which provide terrain following radar" ... how do you get terrain following from that? From the books/source material or "your equipment knowledge" background? Interesting link you provide ... more thoughts to follow.

What is "sigma" die roll? Aghhh, tricky ... having an aircraft roll for guns AND their ATA missile. Gives them an extra opportunity (with a lucky die roll) to at least get guns on the enemy even if the ATA missile attempt fails. Nice. Great to see someone else's write up. Other suggested tactics? I guess what i am learning is, great technology (F-15) is always a good chance to beat good technology (Mirage), no matter what the tactics. As it says on the box (i think) its a game of who see's who first ...". I plan to give this tactics thing some more thought, but your "visual confirmation" ROE was a good idea.

First light. Light rain falling. An Argentinean DDG (Destroyer?) is sitting 3.0nm off the coast of the falklands. A Tornado (don't ask, just accept its there) is coming in at NOE (90m high) from over the land to attack her. The Tornado plans to approach to within 5.0nm and make a lob-toss attack using 2 Mk82 general purpose dumb bombs. My first task was to determine detection ranges for each. This ended up being interesting. The Tornado is flying at NOE (90m) and can detect the Hercules DDG (small target) at 16.0nm. However due to 4.2.5.2 land mass effects the range is halved to 8.0nm. 4.2.5.4 rain effects shows that light rain reduces Pd by 10% and a 25% range deduction. So the Tornado can expect to pick up the Hercules at 8.0nm x .75 = 6.0nm. For the Hercules, its most powerful radar can detect the Tornado (Medium target) at 124nm. Land effect halves this to 62.0nm and finally rain @75% to 46.5nm. I found it interesting the aircraft is a larger target size than the destroyer ship. Anyone like to comment? The Tornado is travelling at full military power and 650kts (2.7nm per 30 second turn). This is also the highest speed it can travel at NOE due to 3.3.4.1. The Tornado enters the game area at a range of 50.0nm. 3 minutes later the range has closed to 17.5nm. The Tornado is not able to detect the Destroyer yet but the Destroyer has a 90% chance of detecting the inbound plane, and does. Two and a half minutes later and the range is 4.0nm. The Tornados radar had a 60% chance to detect the Hercules last turn and failed. There was no visual sighting opportunity. This engagement (30 second) turn. Distance closes to 2.7nm. Hercules fires its 114mm guns at the Tornado and has a 10% chance of hitting (no modifiers and 10% is the lowest chance anyway). The 114mm misses. Given the range is now less than 3.0nm the Tornado is effectively over the sea. Air attack is not possible since the Tornado has not sighted the Destroyer. Detect phase and the Tornado has another 60% chance to detect and ... does. Question though: could the Tornado perform a lob toss attack without the radar picking up the destroyer? 4.5.2 visual sighting means the Tornado did have a visual on the Destroyer if that matters. 2nd Move and the distance closes to 1.4nm. 2nd fire and the Destroyer fires 114mm and this time has a 35% chance of hitting (misses). 2nd fire and the Tornado does its lob/toss thing. Minimum engagement range is 1.0nm so its close! 6.3.4.1.4 says "... only one air to ground weapon can be lofted in each attack". Does this mean only 1 of the Mk 82 bombs can be lofted? Or does the rule mean only one TYPE can be used? Or only 1 "stick" at a time? The lob-toss calc is low altitude dive bomb against a small target of .33 multiplied by 0.15 for the lob-toss (wow, thats a huge negative modifier!!!) giving a 5% chance of a hit. Then rain reduces the Pd by 10% which would make it negative 5% to hit or i'll go with 1%. At this point the Tornado is facing 180 degrees away from the destroyer and trying to get away as fast as he can. I didnt bother rolling to see if he hit with his two bombs. Closing comments 4.2.4.5 = TF = Terrain following radar. These allow planes to fly at NOE without restrictions. 3.3.4.1 = Very low altitude is sea level up to 30m. While NOE is 30m up to 100m. I cannot find any benefits anyway to having a TF radar. Can anyone else? Or does "without restrictions" mean no rolls are required on the page 3-8 "Very Low/NOE Crash table"? And i think i found my own answer in the 3rd paragraph of 3.3.4.1.3 ... chance plane will crash unless equiped with terrain following radar". Or is it 3.3.4.2 "... low altitued ... over land ... naked eye (visability 25% or more) ... or TF radar". Which just means a plane with TF can fly at low altitude in any conditions (ie night time)? If a ship for example has two kinds of SS radar, can it make 2 detection rolls using the capabilities of each radar to detect a single target? I've always wondered whats the better aircraft, the Tornado or F-15. I thought the F-15 would be the better air to air fighter (and it is, depending on types i have it as 4.0 for the F-15 and 3.0 for the Tornado). But which is the better in the ground attack role??? From using H4.1 i would say the F-15 is better because whereas the Tornado can only use Mk 81 & 82 "dumb bombs" the F-15 can use a variety of guided weapons (I'm thinking AGM-65) which have a better chance of hitting and much longer engagement ranges. Both aircraft have the best bombsite of advanced. But whereas the Tornado has to use some form of bombing table the F-15 has the option of using guided weapons. An advantage the Tornado has is its Terrain Following radar, which really helps (can fly at NOE over land which halves radar range against you) when you need to approach so close to a target to deliver your bombs. I checked out the AGM-65 to hit chance against the same small target and found the chance was 33 less 10 for rain. Is this 33-10 = 23% or 33 x 0.9 = 30% though? The F-15 radar has longer range. Both have 3G countermeasures, which makes sense when you consider both are expected to infiltrate enemy airspace to attack ground targets.

Damn you, wrong hemisphere!!!

Correct - i assumed hull mounted arrays since both were "moving fast". Dammit! For some reason i had it in my head the layer was after intermeadiate depths, not before it. Thats a brain fade on my part. I missed the cavitating modifier. Yep, i see it now. If the sub is chasing a ship the sub is in the baffles and not detectable. Good call. You wrote "It should also be noted that the TB-16D would not get the Loud target modifier if the DD is using active sonar since it has a VLF-LF frequency range." - can you point me to a rule? Sprint and drift tactic - agreed. I made a comment near the end of the AAR that the sub could drop below the layer and sprint. But my mistake was in where the layer was. I plan to try this tactic. It seems a bit exciting because the sub is sprinting along (effectively in the dark) and comes up above the layer to "see" where it is in relation to the ship. Depending on ship speed and any direction changes, the result could be interesting. The reason i made the post longer, by including detection attempts, was because i thought it might enable readers to see who had how much of a chance and for how long before detection took place. I hopped it added to the encounter rather than made it longer for no reason. But i can see both sides of the argument to include it or not. yeah, i'll grab that excel file - i know where it is.