kcdusk

I had a submarine hunt down a convoy of 3 large merchant vessels being protected by 4 Krivaks and 2 patrol boats (the vessels were determined by random rolls. Your thinking whats the point of patrol boats, they dont carry sonar? Well the sub might have fired torpedoes at them, making their presence known and likely given their position away). The submarine approached and starting trying to identify targets. It detected some contacts (failed to detect a few while others were still out of range) and then started the process of identifying the exact nature of each of them. One of the ROE was that the sub couldn't fire until it knew the class of ship it was firing on. The process of having a contact and identifying it 100% while maintaining all the older contacts so the sub had a true picture of the situation was frustrating. Contacts were in either the 50% or 75% range, add the 15% for maintaining a contact takes the chances to 65 and 90%. Then you normally need to maintain the contact for a few turns until your able to positively identify it (all while not loosing the contact). There were 3 merchant ships and 6 other boats so there were 9 ships in the convoy and despite good odds there were so many contacts to manage some kept dropping off the sonar before being regained and starting the process of identification again. After slipping by 2 Krivaks the submarine eventually identified a merchant ship and fired 2 torpedoes. One hit, causing some damage but massive critical hits. 2 Krivaks were close by and closed on the submarine. The submarine dropped below the layer and held its position rather than flee the scene. Active sonars found the submarine and the Krivaks closed in. The submarine figured he was found and headed away from the convoy at maximum speed, before stopping, turning around 180 and quietly heading back towards the convoy hoping to give the 2 Krivaks the impression he was bugging out before quielty tiptoeing past them again. The 2 Krivaks caught up to the submarine. When the sub turned around to head back to the convoy one Krivak lost contact. The other Krivak was closer and maintained contact, achieved a good TMA before launching its ASW Mortar (first time for me using ASW rules and mortars in particular, not sure if I got it all correct. See post below for a list of points). The Krivak continued to send depth charges over the side from its ASW mortar while the other Krivak kept a distance away trying to re-establish contact and join the fight if necessary. At the moment the submarine has a Krivak directly overhead dropping DC's and another Krivak still trying to locate it. Its only a matter of time before the DCs do some hurt to the submarine. The Krivaks have a higher speed that the submarine so outrunning them is not an option (point noted re nuclear subs being faster than pursuing ships). The Krivaks are using active sonar so no matter how quiet the submarine is, he is being detected and the Krivaks have a 90% chance of maintaining contact. So its not looking good for the submarine at all. It might be time for the submarine to load a torpedo tube with a human manikin, some oil, broken chair and a life jacket and make it look like a critical hit has taken place! ____________________________ Did you know for ASW to make a depth charge attack you need a "Good" TMA per 6.4.3.3. the ship needs to pass directly over the submarine if dropping DCs into shallow and intermeadiate I depth zones the ship must be moving at a speed greater than 15kts or risk damage from the DCs only one ship may attack without risking damage to a second ship from the first ships DC's ______________________________ Some other quick thoughts on H4.1. Note i was using 3 minute turns; Plotting was quick and easy Movement was quick and easy Planned fire was quick and easy Detection was ..... very time consuming. Only 4 ships (Krivaks) had any means (sonar) to detect the submarine. The submarine could detect each of the 9 ships. So that was 13 different "detections" that could take place. As ranges and speeds changed so did detection possibilities. Even if the chance of detection didnt change, you had to do the maths in order to check that despite changes to speed and distance there was no change in detection possibilities. And for each detection gained (or lost) you have to keep track of how long the detection has been maintained (or lost) because that influences things like TMA, chance of maintaining detection and classifiing a target type. I was very glad when the game boiled down to 2 x Krivaks and the submarine.

4.4.5.1.4 Sonar Transmissions - thats the rule i was after. Active sonars are rated as "loud" targets. Funny how you can read the rules over and over, some of it sticks, some of it you know you've read but just cant find it and other parts you read but cant remember any of the details. I always wondered why submarines "ran" after torpedoing a ship in a convoy. It seemed to me that running at high speed gave off noise that ASW ships would chase. I thought as a submarine captain i would go deep and reduce speed to 0kts and just hang there silently and let the searching ships move away from me as they widend their search. Then i could crawl away at slow speed in the opposite direction. I've almost finished gaming a scenario where a submarine was being searched for by two ASW ships. The ASW ships are using active sonars, and the speed of my submarine (0kts) is not making a difference to the chances of being found because sub speed does not influence active sonar detection. Being below the layer halves the range. But while the sub stayed motionless the ASW ships got within active sonar range and detected it. Now flushed out, the sub is running. Was staying still a good tactic or not? Hard to say. If the ASW ships started moving away from the sub then staying still might have been valid. Thoughts?

Electromagnetic Support Measures (ESM) pick up radar and radio (from 4.3). 1. So does this mean a submarine with ESM can detect radars? Even if submerged? 2. Can ESM (on ships and planes) pick up sonars? 3. I thought a submarine using 'Active sonar" were easier to detect than a "passive" sonar. But looking at the sonar range modifiers on page 4-11 i cannot see any penalties for using active. What am i missing? 4. ESM picks up radio transmissions (4.3 again). Does this mean the enemy can hear your radio traffic? Or just knows theres radio activity? 5. Does a submarine need to be on the surface to use its radar?

Have you started allocating ships for the later game?

U-571 anyone? An updated das boot? (jon bon jovi?)

Das Boot? Doesnt that start with 70 odds minutes of "nothing happening"? True to life, maybe. Best film though?

Best submarine/harpoon type movie?

Is CaS a WWII version of H4.1? Is/has anyone played it? Any good? I'm thinking of getting it to playout some U-boat wolfpak tactics against a convoy ... __________________________________________________ Anyone know of any harpoon PBM type sites/games (apart from SilentHunters)?

Trondheim now has a player. Freash meat .... let the game begin!

Join the mighty soviet team and enjoy the spoils of victory in war.

Is there anywhere in the H4.1 rules which talks specifically about communications (radio) being used and giving away your position via detection? I know theres radar, sonar and a few other detection methods. But if a unit (ship, sub or aircraft) "talks", is there any rule which discusses the potential for it to give your position away?

I'm pumped about this game starting. Are numbers going OK SH?

How do these types of games (Harpoon) normally work in practice? At the start of the game do i place my own ship and move it as i like? Or do i normally take orders from a General (controlling player) and play a part in a team plan? Or will it depend on who the other players are on my side and how we manage (mis-manage?!?!) ourselves? Also, even if i cannot detect friendly ships on my radar can i expect to be in radio contact with them (receiving orders or heads up on opposition movement)? Thanks for any answers and helping me become a little more familiar on in-game expectations.

Are carriers powerhouses or sitting ducks? Can transatlantic convoys survive in a modern wartime environment? In the cat-and-mouse games between US and Russian submarines, which is better?

I've wanted to try a play by post (?) H4 game for a while, so yeah, I'm interested. A few other comments; I've never done a H4 game before, so be gentle. I have done ASL and other play by post RPG games though. I'm not familiar with The Sixth Battle (maybe this will be an advantage?). I'm busy for the next few months, so a later start time (which you seem to be saying) works for me. Myth Weavers? Never heard of it, but heading over for a look. Pencil me in as interested.

For ease of gaming i use graph paper where each square representing 0.5 a mile. So i round all speeds/distances to the nearest half mile. Knowing ranges etc are a combination of other factors, i dont feel so bad taking the easy route and rounding distances.

Tensions between the United Kingdom and France have crept close to breaking point (again?). The French destroyer Aconit has entered waters it has been told to keep out of. The UKs response is to send 2 Sea Harriers to ward her off. The two Sea Harriers approach at 450kts and very low altitude. Initial range is 16.0nm. The Sea Harriers pick up the Destroyer and continue to close. The Destroyer detects the 2 aircraft at a range of 13.5nm. At 9.5nm the Aconit begins trying to shoot down the incoming Sea Harriers with 100mm guns but is unsuccessful. The Sea Harriers continue to pass their low altitude die rolls (not crash) and fire their Paveways when at a range of 4.0nm. After two and a half minutes of action the Aconit has failed to shoot anything down, the two harriers had not crashed and burned during movement and 4 paveways (2 each) were fired when in range but all 4 missed (each had a 40% chance of success!). The 2 harriers flee the scene still under fire from the Aconit but are not damaged as they retreat to a safer distance. The UK decides to send in a nuclear submarine to do what the fly boys could not. More to come. What happens when an aircrafts speed (Sea Harrier 650kts) is greater than the launching missiles speed (Paveway Mk 13/18 of 549kts)? Does the Sea Harrier have to slow down prior to firing? If it fires is there a catastrophic failure (resolve a paveway "hit" on the Harrier) or something else?

The launch platform would not typically receive any indication of a successful hit, beyond perhaps the following: * target's radar possibly going off the air (though that could be a deception) * its own radar contact on the target changing or disappearing (also a possible deception) * a smoke column appearing in due course (yeah, ditto) * or some other friendly getting a visual on the target Also, the ship may no longer move. Perhaps indicating she has lost an engine, or suffered worse. And players would be able to pick this up via their radar.

Anyone planning on running another PBEM?

Simply, chilling. Great write up. Really. Apart from firing the harpoons, maybe not allot happened. But reading about the contacts, the sheer number of them. Wondering what may be happening above, joining the dots of some of the contacts and what might be happening to others. Fishing boats?!??!?!!! Sounds like a nice touch by the ref if its not in the scenario special rules. Captures fantastically well "Submarine warfare, always waiting to see what happens next ...,". AAR reads like a movie. Like all good thrillers its often the unseen threat or the unknown that scares the most. And thats how i'd imagine submarine warfare to be. (Now, back to sulking because i missed out).

Silent Hunter AAR Wow Wow! Again. Great AAR. The best i have read. (sulking because i missed taking part in the game) ........ (more sulking). Interesting to read that each side was co-ordinated enough between players to have standard procedures or tactics (for example the exclusion zones). CIC combat plotter. I'm interested and should find out more about it. I use graph paper as well. I thought submarines would be the most time intensive (not naval aviation). Again, sounds like it was a great game. Nothing can probably beat the tention of being in a game like this and only knowing what the umpire passes on. Looks like more posts to read and catch up on ...

I dont know where the subforum is to read. Looking forward to reading the AAR link above though ... EDIT: AAR link is asking for a username and password to access it.

Well then ... let me get High Tide out and look it up ...

I guess the Kidd gets two AA rolls of 55% to hit the kitchen. Then theres the SM2MR SAMs i will need to check out. And what i missed in my earlier post was the kitchen has a 65% chance to hit the kidd if they survive the AA rolls.

The "Scott" (Kidd class DDG) has been isolated from its battlegroup after a series of mechanical failures, and now finds itself playing catch-up on its own. It surges through sea state 5 oceans at 25kts in an effort to rejoin the protection offered by a battle group. 270 miles away a Tu-22M Backfire fires two AS-4 "Kitchen" missles. Kitchens. These things are huge. The largest air to surface missle there is. The missile itself is the size of a small fighter(5.7tons). The combination of 2,303kts and 5.7t alone is probably enough kinetic energy to sink most warships. And thats before the 900kg of warhead is accounted for. At 2,303kts it going to take about 6 minutes before the Kitchen finds "Scott". The Scott picks up via its ESM that theres a firing rader in the area and goes "on alert". Can the Scott pick up the incoming Kitchens on radar? I will assume it can although i am having a blank as to how it would do it (or is ESM enough?). The first Kitchen screams in. The Kidds air defence system (Mk 15 Phalanx 20mm) has a 65% chance of hitting the incoming missile at a range of 1.0nm. Fearing the 6.4.1.1 3 second rule coming into play, the Mk 45 127mm which also has .65 chance at a range of 6 miles is used instead. The chance is modified by -10% for the missle being > 1,000kts, so 55% chance of the missile being hit. Obviously a variety of outcomes are possible . But it boils down to the Kidd having a 55% chance of downing each of the 2 incoming Kitchens. And if they survive the 127mm protection theres another 55% chance the Phalanx 20mm system will stop them (though there will be airburst type damage). But using round numbers, theres a 25% chance for each Kitchen to hit the Kidd. If a Kitchen hits, it does 150 points of damage and the critical hit damage will be massive. Does the Kidd have any other options or chances?