Gaza

[CV32]

I'm surprised no one has even breathed mention of the situation in Gaza. Yes, its a politically sensitive issue, and maybe the silence is because we have been conditioned to the same tired, old Israeli-Palestinian grudge?

[TEPonta]

I'd venture to guess that I have as much personal experience in the Middle East as anyone in this group, and probably a great deal more than most. I have some very definite opinions on this situation, and I'd be willing to bet that most Americans wouldn't disagree too strongly, with the possible exception of any news media types we have. In the interest of not creating unrest and possibly being banned from the group, I keep my opinions to myself.

 

I will say this much. I live in San Diego, and if rockets were raining down on my neighborhood from Mexico, I'd sure as hell expect the government to put a stop to it by any means necessary.

 

Buddha

[Silent Hunter UK]

I live in London, which has a large Muslim population.

 

There's a big rally today by a group called "Stop The War Coalition", who are essentially a coalition of Trots and Islamists (yep).

[TonyE]

I pretty much feel like Buddha (except with a lot less knowledge about the Middle East). The other two people in the house here happen to agree (which isn't always the case) too. I also envision a lot of unrest if I say what I think...

[broncepulido]

I pretty much feel like Buddha (except with a lot less knowledge about the Middle East). The other two people in the house here happen to agree (which isn't always the case) too. I also envision a lot of unrest if I say what I think...

 

I agree too, and little or none naval involvement in Gaza ...

[Silent Hunter UK]

I pretty much feel like Buddha (except with a lot less knowledge about the Middle East). The other two people in the house here happen to agree (which isn't always the case) too. I also envision a lot of unrest if I say what I think...

 

I agree too, and little or none naval involvement in Gaza ...

 

Actually, I believe that Israel is using naval forces to stop Hamas getting supplies from the sea.

[noxious]

I pretty much feel like Buddha (except with a lot less knowledge about the Middle East). The other two people in the house here happen to agree (which isn't always the case) too. I also envision a lot of unrest if I say what I think...

 

I agree too, and little or none naval involvement in Gaza ...

 

Actually, I believe that Israel is using naval forces to stop Hamas getting supplies from the sea.

 

And to rain down gun shells and TV guided missiles on Hamas targets (you haven't seen the vids ?)

I think we all refrained from talking about it not to get into politics, but I think on this particular issue, all our views (at least, the current crop of regular posters) are quite close.

I know I don't have a mainstream typical French Canadian opinion, in that I do not take part in the pro-Palestine rallies (or pro-Israel), and know that anti-semitism means being anti-Jew AND anti-arab (both Semites tribes, which the Persians ain't )

There is a strong undercurrent of "typical" anti-semitism in Quebec (as in anti-jew mostly, and anti-arab, except where Israel/Palestine conflict, where even local Jews manifest with Palestinians), as exemplified by the numerous rumours and actual proofs of dealings between the Catholic clergy and Nazi Germany during WW2 (Quebec was an effective entry route for spies to the US, and still taboo to discuss the clergy's part in this)

So everyone laments the Palestinian civilian losses, thinking the IDF is a bunch of thugs, purposefully targeting civilian targets, but no one really lamented the Iraki or Afghani civilian losses : the hypocrisy is what really gets to me, and the accompanying crass ignorance.

Back then, mostly the same folks were only rallying to "do number 2" (edit : sorry for the expletive) on the US imperialism, blablablabla.

I might disagree with the politics of the Irak conflict, be ambivalent about Afghanistan (but part of me hopes I'll be enlisted and ready for duty before we withdraw), or be aware that there are no absolute right or wrong in the Israel conflict : Palestinians need a homeland or partie prenante in the affairs of Israel (after all about 15% of Israel National are muslim, between Israeli Druzes and Palestinians), but voting for Hamas (if it was a proper election..) directly led to the present situation.

If there is no will, there will be no resolution, and the Western media and politicos gambling on making a big gain by posturing on this, seem to ignore the obvious : Israel wants a peaceful resolution, but can't go at it alone

Example of posturing : Sarkozy, how ironic, when it's now documented that France and Israel developed their nuclear weapons together, and not just the topic of the novel the Fifth Cavalier (accord of 1957 between France and Israel, still in function iirc) ?

 

Yes, any conflict, especially with the potential for vast civilian casualties is a tragedy.

But I'm really disturbed by the views carried by the western media, all political inclinations compounded, that Israel is the agressor, etc.

Are we collectively so disturbed by our own nature that "big" nations should always bow to the "little" agressions ? Hamas started this one...

And Palestinians have a short memory : a big proportion of them, all ethnical group mixed, since there is no practically no ethnical Palestinian, if any, they're all Syrian, Lebanese, Egyptians or Jordanians, took part in the fighting alongside the Sabras in the struggle that saw the birth of Israel.

This could be settled, should have been settled a long time ago, but I fear that the responsibility for this lies more with us, the spectating Western nations, and our collective lack of will to truly resolve this conflict, as it would change the balance of power in the Near and Middle East, and maybe not suit certain plans (surmising here, of course) of various involved Western powers, including, but not limited to France, the US and the UK.

 

Hope I didn't break any taboos, cheers !!

Nic

[CV32]

Actually, I believe that Israel is using naval forces to stop Hamas getting supplies from the sea.

 

Yep. From Aviation Week's ARES Blog:

 

Israel's Navy Displays Precision Guided Missiles Fired at Gaza targets

Posted by David Eshel at 1/5/2009 8:18 AM CST

 

The Israeli Navy has taken part in attacks on Gaza, targeting coastal targets and boats formerly operated by the Palestinian police.

 

For the first time, the Navy has acknowledged the use of precision guided missiles integrated with the Typhoon weapon system. Records of the attack, published by the Israeli Navy, indicate the Israelis have equipped naval vessels with Rafael Spike ER electro-optical guided missiles. Two missiles fired at coastal targets are seen in a video aired by Israel TV.

 

The video depicts the attacks by the Typhoon remotely controlled gun and the firing sequence of the two missiles, one targeting a small patrol boat whoile the other hits through the window of a building on the coastline.

 

The 8 km-range Spike ER missile was known to be have been used from helicopters, vehicles and ground positions, but are now being used on ships, probably Super Dvora fast attack craft (FAC), carrying Rafael's Typhoon stabilized gun mount. Other videos from the attack show the boat's Typhoon gun scoring precision hits even from a rolling ship in rough seas.

[TEPonta]

I live in London, which has a large Muslim population.

 

There's a big rally today by a group called "Stop The War Coalition", who are essentially a coalition of Trots and Islamists (yep).

 

We have a sizeable Arab population here in San Diego, and I know quite a few of them fairly well. (Most of the liquor stores here are owned by Iraqi's, which probably explains that). When a lot of them find out that I used to live in the KSA, they often take the time to shoot the breeze about the area.

 

Far from wanting to take sides and protest, I find that most of the guys I know left that area to come here and get away from all that grief, and just want to sell their booze and be left alone. Most of the protests I've seen here consist of ignorant, bored, spoiled people who seem to feel that watching CNN makes them experts on international affairs and protesting somehow makes them noble.

 

I've seen coverage of what you describe in London, as well as other European cities. Since I tend to take news coverage of stuff like this with a grain of salt, if not a shakerful, it's good to hear from a group member who actually lives there and knows what he's talking about.

 

Thanx:

 

Buddha

[noxious]

Actually, I believe that Israel is using naval forces to stop Hamas getting supplies from the sea.

 

Yep. From Aviation Week's ARES Blog:

 

 

 

Impressive footage to boot, even the gun : found it very interesting to see the spread of shells when doing point targeting.

Exactly the video I had in mind when I posted, but couldn't find the naval blog article I had found it in (I have close to a 100 articles to catch up on in Google Reader, and that's just the Naval Analysis category )

 

Love the Maverick like EO rocket view. Wouldn't want to be the dudes in meeting or hiding inside the house...

 

In case I wasn't clear : I have no qualms in saying that I can respect the right of the Palestinian, Hamas or not, to "fight back". That's a given, not only a right, but a survival instinct.

That said, I also certainly respect and understand that Israel is doing what has to be done, in as much as humane way as possible. That doesn't mean there won't be SNAFUs, or special ops/wet work won't happen : it's a war, people fight, and alas, also die.

Incidentally, most Israeli military casualties so far have been from friendly fire...

 

Again, what is it with this pervasive David against Goliath syndrome ?

Hamas targets civilians. Israel responds with a conventional campaign, taking care to communicate with UN and other agencies.

Now, if targets happened to be in UN compounds because the people in charge look the other way, well, there is an expression about making your bed and lying in it

I don't believe for a second the IDF targeted UN compounds just to "terrorize" or give a lesson to the UN honchos.

There is even footage of shells coming out of such a compound on the CBC a few days ago : rocket eye view while it's homing in on target and you clearly see rockets or something coming out of the compound. And really, I don't think they were civilian fireworks somehow...

 

Now, I think more might be done to get the civilians out, but collectively they haven't shown much of a will to cooperate since Hamas took charge, and it would be hard to filter people on the way out while the fighting is going on.

Maybe a 24 hour truce, with checkpoints where people can opt out, without weapons, or much baggage.

If they stay in...

Might sound harsh, but I'll counter that no one is pointing out that Israel could have conventionally (no need for NBC) wiped out the whole population by practising total war and again, shows restraint by not doing so ?

 

As you all probably know, I call myself unaligned politically, but I'm fully aware that the sum of my beliefs tends to put me on the left.

Except with the leftists, as I think I mentioned before, who call me a fascist or reactionary conservative, or any other of a thousand expletives, including "sellout" from people who know me but refuse to see we're surrounded by both wilful and unconscious propaganda.

Sorry, just not set in stone, and will never apologize for changing my views, or amending them

And doing public rallies with nothing beyond doesn't count as activism or trying to change things in my book.

Note : I'm not advocating riots or revolutionary behaviour instead, far from it. Just that rallies and manifestations play into the hands of the powers that be by providing a relatively benign safety valve to public outcry, thus preventing more pressing social problems, or further thought and action on the topic at hand.

Most Western activists only talk and do rallies, actually taking no concrete steps to change things.

Now, bring on the hate if you have to

[Silent Hunter UK]

I live in London, which has a large Muslim population.

 

There's a big rally today by a group called "Stop The War Coalition", who are essentially a coalition of Trots and Islamists (yep).

 

We have a sizeable Arab population here in San Diego, and I know quite a few of them fairly well. (Most of the liquor stores here are owned by Iraqi's, which probably explains that). When a lot of them find out that I used to live in the KSA, they often take the time to shoot the breeze about the area.

 

Far from wanting to take sides and protest, I find that most of the guys I know left that area to come here and get away from all that grief, and just want to sell their booze and be left alone. Most of the protests I've seen here consist of ignorant, bored, spoiled people who seem to feel that watching CNN makes them experts on international affairs and protesting somehow makes them noble.

 

I've seen coverage of what you describe in London, as well as other European cities. Since I tend to take news coverage of stuff like this with a grain of salt, if not a shakerful, it's good to hear from a group member who actually lives there and knows what he's talking about.

 

Thanx:

 

Buddha

 

I've at times had to go to Whitechapel for business (Brick Lane is overrated, frankly). Whitechapel, heart of the East End, is one of the most Muslim areas of the country. There are a fair few posters for STW when I've been. The MP for that area is George Galloway, former of Labour and the now-split RESPECT The Unity Coalition. You might remember him from the US Senate hearings on oil-for-food.

 

However, Mr. Galloway helped remove a female black Jewish MP with community politics and declared the collapse of the USSR "the saddest day of his life".

 

He rather ruined his reputation when he went on Celebrity Big Brother and pretended to be a cat...

[broncepulido]

A very short and simple article about the matter and Israeli Navy, but with nice photos:

Gaza : La marine israélienne dans les opérations contre le Hamas

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=109211

[CV32]

From Aviation Week's ARES Blog

 

Israel Must Control The Rafah Egyptian Border To Forestall Disaster

Posted by David Eshel at 1/15/2009 4:43 AM CST

 

Rafah is the key to Hamas' weapons lifeline. Through the vast subterranean smuggling tunnel city under the international border line flow incessantly huge funding and weapons shipments from Iran to sustain Hamas' war against Israel. Moreover, in building a strong pro-Iranian military base in Gaza, Tehran also endangers Egypt president Hosni Mubarak's pro-western regime, emboldening an overthrow by the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, which might spill-over to topple the Jordanian Hashemite kingdom as well.

 

Such a development, which cannot be underestimated, could become unthinkable, if the Tehran Shiite Mullahs will turn a fundamentalist Islamic Iran into a nuclear state. The Iranian ambition to form a Shiite dominated Middle East depends on Tehran defeating the moderate Sunni axis, led by Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. Iran must be prevented from gaining ground in Lebanon and Gaza by all means. Israel's Operation 'Cast Lead', while being condemned for its apparently excessive use of force, should be regarded within the overall context to save the Middle East from Islamic fundamentalism dominance. However, to achieve this, only a strong, determined and ready-to-act administration in Washington, leading the Sunni moderates anti-Shiite axis, Israel included, can still save the western free world from total disaster in this highly turbulent region..

 

The one-sided UN resolution 1860 is not only unfair to Israel as a democratic nation fighting a terrorist entity, which has taken power by force from the Palestinian Authority in a coup d'etat. Across Israel's political spectrum there seems to be a consensus that Hamas' provocative rocket barrages could not go unanswered — though whether Israel's response has been proportional to the threat is, at the least, questionable. Warfighting against insurgents in urban environments has its price, as Iraq, Lebanon and now Gaza clearly demonstrate. With the terrorists using civilians as human shields the latter unfortunately suffer the most.

 

But a unilateral cease-fire can have dangerous consequences, not only in Israel, but for the entire Sunni Muslim community throughout the Middle East. Hamas will declare a resounding victory over the Israeli army, just as did Hezbollah at the end of the 2006 Lebanon Campaign. This imaginary and totally illusory achievement might perhaps give the Tehran Mullahs full satisfaction for their weapons investment, but having emerged from their hidden underground bunker layers into the sunlight, Hamas leaders will soon discover that their country is in a shambles with total chaos raging. Then they will perhaps finally realize, that their reckless act in Summer 2007 of brutally chasing out Abu Mazen's security forces from Gaza, was a dangerous mistake which has backfired on them with disastrous consequences to one and a half million hapless Gazans, who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by voting Hamas, hoping in vain to rid them of the corrupt Fatah rule.

 

As mentioned repeatedly, Rafah is the key to Hamas' survival, both militarily and politically. Those who control the smuggling lifeline rule Gaza - that is an established fact for generations living in this narrow sliver of land along the Mediterranean Sea, engulfed on three sides by Israel and Egypt. With Israel again controlling the so-called border line Philadelphi Route can also defeat any Iranian, or Al Qaeda ambitions in Gaza, by establishing there a strategic forward terrorist base, threatening western Europe.

 

And to achieve this strategically vital task may still be feasible, if the right conditions prevail, even if a cease fire regime will be enforced against the will of the two fighting parties. Unfortunately, it is a well-established fact, that Middle East cease fires last only a short period before fighting flares up again. Once Hamas breaks the cease fire it will be the right time for Israel to finish the job and retake control of the Rafah-Egypt border and seal off once and for all the Iran-Hamas terror lifeline. If Operation Cast Lead is to be at all successful, Israel must again control the Philadelphi Corridor and fully supervise any movement over the Egyptian Sinai border. Hamas must not be allowed, under any circumstances, to restore its weapons arsenal, which Iran is already planning to restock, with even more lethal ordnance, just as it did two years ago with Hezbollah. With active Egyptian assistance, acting in their own national interest, the smuggling routes through the Sinai Peninsula should also be closed permanently. Where there is a will, there is also the way to achieve these two vital strategic goals.

 

As for the so-called Philadelphi Route, there is, in fact, a little known legal aspect, which is often overlooked in the heat of political argument, when the guns are firing. According to the 1994 signed Gaza-Jericho Agreement, a so-called "Pink Line" was demarcated along the Egyptian Sinai border to become the "Military Installation Area" under full control of Israel, acting as buffer zone to prevent unauthorized infiltration. It received its official Philadelphi designation from the original IDF military random code map, in which this route was displayed. Unfortunately, due almost criminal shortsightedness by the Israeli negotiators, ignoring professional military caution, the "Pink Line" was demarcated, stretching 8500 meters from south-west to north-east hugging the Egypt-Israel international border, but with only a mere 60-100 meter wide stretch under Israeli sovereign territory. Such a ridiculously narrow area, left to IDF control, represented a military nightmare. To repeat such a dangerous mistake would be disastrous to all concerned still actively wishing to safeguard the free world from the threat of fundamentalist terrorism.