Some questions about HCE-ATA, DATA and guns

[jugasa77]

I have bought HCE recently and I have some questions about this game.

How do ATA and DATA works?

Is it Loadout DATA something you should add to Plane DATA to get a final modifier or is it the maximun DATA that any plane can reach when it is loading this type of Loadout?

Where are airbone cannons? How can I edit them?

[noxious]

I have bought HCE recently and I have some questions about this game.

How do ATA and DATA works?

Is it Loadout DATA something you should add to Plane DATA to get a final modifier or is it the maximun DATA that any plane can reach when it is loading this type of Loadout?

Where are airbone cannons? How can I edit them?

 

ATA is your gun rating, aka dogfight rating, gun rating.

DATA is your Defensive ATA, used to defend in dofights, and against AAW missiles.

They are standalone values, and in the paper rules, get compared (substract defender's DATA from attacker's gun rating aka ATA) to come up with hit percentiles, iirc, with the bigger the difference between attacker and defender being good for one or the other : positive, good for attacker, negative difference favors defender.

The loadout DATA is the plane's DATA when carrying that loadout.

IIRC, you model airborne cannons by figuring out ATA value, and maybe a flag in the Platform Editor, but not quite sure.

Someone will pipe up if I'm sorely mistaken

[TonyE]

Where are airbone cannons? How can I edit them?

 

Airborne cannon are hard-coded. Any intercept or escort loadout assigns air to air cannon to a plane and gives it four bursts of fire. They are not editable at present.

[CV32]

Generally, the only airborne cannon you'll see in the database will be those systems intended for use against ground targets, e.g. the A-10's GAU-8, the AC-130's arsenal, etc.

 

The air-to-air systems (e.g. the M61) appear only in the manner Tony described.

[jugasa77]

The loadout DATA is the plane's DATA when carrying that loadout.

 

So I guess the Loadout DATA value replaces the Plane DATA value if the first value is the same or less than the second one. Because I don´t think it is correct to use a Loadout DATA greater than the Plane DATA itself. How can an aircraft have a higher DATA value when it is loaded with weapons than when it hasn´t got anyone?

[jugasa77]

The loadout DATA is the plane's DATA when carrying that loadout.

 

So I guess the Loadout DATA value replaces the Plane DATA value if the first value is the same or less than the second one. Because I don´t think it is correct to use a Loadout DATA greater than the Plane DATA itself. How can an aircraft have a higher DATA value when it is loaded with weapons than when it hasn´t got anyone?

Hornet´s DATA value is 20, and Intercept Loadout DATA value is 35. Why is the second the highest? I guess that Hornet can´t use a DATA value higher than its own value. I guess a plane DATA value when it is empty should be higher than the value when it has some air to air weapons. So I thought that you would add Plane DATA plus Loadout DATA.

[jugasa77]

At HCE Hornet's DATA is 20 and Intercept DATA is 45. Should I use DATA 45 instead of DATA 20 when flying an intercept mission? I had thought I must add 20 to 45 to get a final DATA score of 65, but I can be mistaken

[divefreak]

Where are airbone cannons? How can I edit them?

 

Airborne cannon are hard-coded. Any intercept or escort loadout assigns air to air cannon to a plane and gives it four bursts of fire. They are not editable at present.

 

That´s not 100% true...

when you build loadouts with antiair capable guns...

they will fire and hit...

but you have the 4 hardcoded burst as an aditional load....

Regards René

[CV32]

Where are airbone cannons? How can I edit them?

 

Airborne cannon are hard-coded. Any intercept or escort loadout assigns air to air cannon to a plane and gives it four bursts of fire. They are not editable at present.

 

That´s not 100% true...

when you build loadouts with antiair capable guns...

they will fire and hit...

but you have the 4 hardcoded burst as an aditional load....

Regards René

 

I think that point has already been made, Rene. I'm also pretty sure jugasa77 was referring to "air to air" cannon systems in his original query, systems that he could not "see", on which point Tony is absolutely correct.

 

You can certainly add air to air capable guns to any Loadout, as you've said, but in an Intercept or Escort loadout they'll add to the 'hard coded' guns and may not perform at all the same as those hard coded guns.

[noxious]

So I guess the Loadout DATA value replaces the Plane DATA value if the first value is the same or less than the second one. Because I don´t think it is correct to use a Loadout DATA greater than the Plane DATA itself. How can an aircraft have a higher DATA value when it is loaded with weapons than when it hasn´t got anyone?

Hornet´s DATA value is 20, and Intercept Loadout DATA value is 35. Why is the second the highest? I guess that Hornet can´t use a DATA value higher than its own value. I guess a plane DATA value when it is empty should be higher than the value when it has some air to air weapons. So I thought that you would add Plane DATA plus Loadout DATA.

 

No, as you could a better DATA from having a better jamming pod in the loadout, plus counter measures systems onboard being taken into account, etc.

You get the gist.

[pboiler]

So DATA is used to defend against AAM... Is there anything else (besided ECM) that affects the chance that a missile hits a plane?

 

I just made a test scenario where 100 F-22's launched 100 AIM-120D's from about 75 miles at 100 Rafale C4, 100 F-22's, 100 Mig-29 Fulcrum A, and 100 c-130 Hercules. (100 missiles at each aircraft). The attacking aircraft had AWACS support. The 400 other aircraft had ferry loadouts and were loitering on a patrol. I performed the test 3 times.

 

Here are the results.

 

hits test 1 hits test 2 hits test 3

Rafale 61 63 58

F-22 74 70 67

Mig-29 91 92 91

Hercules 100 100 100

 

Why is the percent hit higher in the test for the Mig-29 and Hercules than that stated percent hit of the missile of 85%? Is 300 out of 300 hits against the Hercules unrealistic? Did the high DATA of the F-22 result in the lower percent hit against it? Did the high DATA (although less than the F-22) combined with Spectra on the Rafale result in the even lower percent hit against it?

[CV32]

Interesting test. Could you post the various target aircraft ATA/DATA values and any ECM in their respective loadouts too? That would give us an even better look at why the numbers are what they are.

[pboiler]

here is the info on the aircraft/loadouts.

 

AIRCRAFT - DATA - ECM

 

Rafale - 30 - Spectra ECM

Mig-29 - 25 - no ECM

F-22 - 35 - no ECM

Hercules - 5 - no ECM

[TonyE]

All Database info comes from HCDB-081124

 

AIM-120D

Snap Up/Down (aka unaffected by target being at different altitude)

Air PH: 85%

 

C-130 (no ECM)

Size: Large

ATA: 5.0

DATA: 5.0

 

F-22A (no ECM)

Size: Very Small

ATA: 60.0

DATA 35.0

 

Rafale M

Size: Small

ATA: 55.0

DATA: 30.0

Spectra ECM PH -20%

 

Mig-29 (no ECM)

Size: Small

ATA: 50.0

DATA: 25.0

 

 

First some assumptions:

1. None of the planes are going > 1300kts else they would get a 30% PH bonus

2. One missile per target airplane

 

 

AIM-120D vs C-130

85 (AIM-120D) - 5 (C-130 DATA) = 80 (difference in ATA)

Chance = difference in ATA + 30, therefore 110 = 80 + 30, Chance = 110

Roll the dice, but needn't bother since the chance to hit is 110%

 

AIM-120D vs F-22A

85 (AIM-120D) - 35 (F-22 DATA) = 50

Chance = 50 + 30 = 80

10% PH bonus to F-22 for being Very Small Air

Chance = 80 - 10 = 70

Roll the dice and it will eventually average 70% hit

 

AIM-120D vs Mig-29

85 (AIM-120D) - 25 (Mig-29DATA) = 60

Chance = 60 + 30 = 90

Roll the dice and it will eventually average 90% hit

 

AIM-120D vs Rafale

85 (AIM-120D) - 30 (RafaleDATA) = 55

Chance = 55 + 30 = 85

Apply ECM 20% PH reduction

Chance = 85 -20 = 65

Roll the dice and it will eventually average 65% hit

 

In other words your Rafale pilots were just a hair lucky.

[CV32]

I should add that not all aircraft in the HCDB yet have the ECM that they should.

 

I've been working through the entries very slowly but eventually you'll see this reflected in some way or another.