Is a WWII DB possible?

[Buster]

With the addition of Westpac, a recreation of WWII in the Pacific would be on my wish list for HCE.

 

What are the obstacles in creating a new database using Japanese, British and American platforms and loadouts? Is it even possible to do?

 

Your comments, please.

 

Regards, Terry

[TEPonta]

With the addition of Westpac, a recreation of WWII in the Pacific would be on my wish list for HCE.

 

What are the obstacles in creating a new database using Japanese, British and American platforms and loadouts? Is it even possible to do?

 

Your comments, please.

 

Regards, Terry

 

Terry:

 

There was a WWII Atlantic DB circulating at one time, but I can't recall where. You might try the scenario locker if it's still around. I may have it laying around here someplace, and if I find it, I'll send it to you.

 

Regards:

 

Buddha

[CV32]

Terry: There was a WWII Atlantic DB circulating at one time, but I can't recall where. You might try the scenario locker if it's still around. I may have it laying around here someplace, and if I find it, I'll send it to you. Regards:

Buddha

 

Its in the Downloads section under Databases, here.

 

As others have pointed out on occasion, HC is not terribly well suited to WWII era warfare (unfortunately), principally because of limitations in the way gun engagements are modeled.

[Buster]

Terry: There was a WWII Atlantic DB circulating at one time, but I can't recall where. You might try the scenario locker if it's still around. I may have it laying around here someplace, and if I find it, I'll send it to you. Regards:

Buddha

 

Its in the Downloads section under Databases, here.

 

As others have pointed out on occasion, HC is not terribly well suited to WWII era warfare (unfortunately), principally because of limitations in the way gun engagements are modeled.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Being new to a Harpoon game that uses updates like this, I suspect I just backup my file of the same name and paste this one in the directory. Is that correct?

 

Regards, Terry

[TonyE]

Hi Terry, you've got it right, make a backup copy of your commondb.res (and commondb.rsr is good practice). Rene/divefreek has a neat system of making a folder for each database and all of the related scenarios so he can more easily switch between them (Rene, feel free to elaborate and correct me).

[divefreak]

As others have pointed out on occasion, HC is not terribly well suited to WWII era warfare (unfortunately), principally because of limitations in the way gun engagements are modeled.

 

Right Brad. But IMHO this will change with the first Patch.

 

 

Jan M. and I startet creating the WWII-DB some time ago but we got stuck because of several Problems/limitations. These Limitations are caused by the way HC was created. HC is/was a simulation for the 20th Century War at Sea => longrange fights with missiles. Groups vs Groups. ESM as passive and Radar/Sonar as active Sensors. Subs with nuclear propulsion or Snorkel/AiP Systems for the Diesel Subs. HC does a goood to great Job for the purpose it was desinged.

 

It was not designed for WWI or WWII battles. Before 1950/1960 the Gun and the thumb bomb dominated the fight, homing weapons were under development only a few were used in combat, like Zaunkönig torpedos, radio controled glidebombs, V1 and V2 were "thumb" balistic or cruise missiles. Figths were ships vs ships. Before the late WWII years Radar and Sonar(Asdic) did not play an important Role, detection relied a bit on radio derection finding but mostly on visual detection + intelligence messages (decryption of Enigma for example). Submarines were boats that can dive but not travel long distances submerged.

 

So where are the troubles?

 

Gun model (actual 1 shot every 30 seconds) fixed for the first patch (but we can´t store enough Amo, largest value is 255 rounds/burst per single entry)

no coms model (we don´t need the communication as in h3 but the signals to have something to intercept by radio direction finding and to decrypt) => radio sender, the detection can behandelt by an improved ESM model

Group focus (actual) vs single Unit in a Group focus

An enhanced visual detection model => senortype "eyeball" and binoculars+ "steam" as propulsion type that causes detectable smoke....

.....

.....

 

Regards René

[divefreak]

Hi Terry, you've got it right, make a backup copy of your commondb.res (and commondb.rsr is good practice). Rene/divefreek has a neat system of making a folder for each database and all of the related scenarios so he can more easily switch between them (Rene, feel free to elaborate and correct me).

 

Right Tony.

 

1 folder for each DB and scen/battlset folders.

 

a bit similar to the system introduced with the H3 ANW launcher.

 

But manually handelt because atm we have no launcher in HC.

[Buster]

It was not designed for WWI or WWII battles. Before 1950/1960 the Gun and the thumb bomb dominated the fight, homing weapons were under development only a few were used in combat, like Zaunkönig torpedos, radio controled glidebombs, V1 and V2 were "thumb" balistic or cruise missiles. Figths were ships vs ships. Before the late WWII years Radar and Sonar(Asdic) did not play an important Role, detection relied a bit on radio derection finding but mostly on visual detection + intelligence messages (decryption of Enigma for example). Submarines were boats that can dive but not travel long distances submerged.

 

So where are the troubles?

 

Gun model (actual 1 shot every 30 seconds) fixed for the first patch (but we can´t store enough Amo, largest value is 255 rounds/burst per single entry)

no coms model (we don´t need the communication as in h3 but the signals to have something to intercept by radio direction finding and to decrypt) => radio sender, the detection can behandelt by an improved ESM model

Group focus (actual) vs single Unit in a Group focus

An enhanced visual detection model => senortype "eyeball" and binoculars+ "steam" as propulsion type that causes detectable smoke....

.....

.....

 

Regards René

 

Is it possible to replenish at sea, much like an "inflight refueling"? That would solve the ammo problem. As an alternative, can the damage caused by the guns be multiplied by the number of tubes firing so that it simulates having fired more shots?

 

Regards, Terry

[divefreak]

[

Is it possible to replenish at sea, much like an "inflight refueling"? That would solve the ammo problem. As an alternative, can the damage caused by the guns be multiplied by the number of tubes firing so that it simulates having fired more shots?

 

Yes for both

 

but simulation multiple shots at once is something we´re comming from.

 

you can model them and you´ll get results that are realistic for the calculations and results.

 

But 1h Battles would feel like Bismark vs Hood. 2-3 Salvos and game over.

 

Ammunition stowage per gun

(see Notes 2 and 3) Yorktown (CV-6) and Essex (CV-9): 450 rounds

 

North Carolina (BB-55), South Dakota (BB-57) and Iowa (BB-61): 450 rounds

 

Alaska (CB-1): 500 rounds

 

Baltimore (CA-68), Oregon City (CA-122) and Des Moines (CA-134): 500 rounds

 

Saint Louis (CL-49), Cleveland (CL-55) and Fargo (CL-106): 500 rounds

 

Atlanta (CL-51): 450 rounds

 

Pre-war destroyers of the Farragut (DD-348) through Sims (DD-409) classes: 300 rounds

 

Benson (DD-421) and Gleaves (DD-423): 320 - 360 rounds

 

Fletcher (DD-445): 350 rounds (420 in later ships)

 

Allen M. Sumner (DD-692) and Gearing (DD-710): 360 rounds

 

Others: N/A

 

For 5inch twin Turrets. This would make for a Ship like the Iowa 10800 rounds..... making proximatly 40 magazine entrys/slots in HCE!

 

The Post war French BB carried 58000 57mm rounds.... => 227 magazine entrys.

 

Even a Fletcher DD needs aproximalty 20 Magazine slots.....

And in this case the 40mm rounds would be modelt as 2 or 3 shot bursts....

 

If the DB structure will be changed somewhere in the future, the amo problem will be solved becaus than we´ll have 32xxx counts per slot. => Fletcher DD 3 Magazine Slots. 1 for the 127mm 1 for the 40 1 for the 20mm.

 

Etc.

 

But the rest needs to be changed too.

 

When the Sensor model and the group vs Unit focus gets changed, than it is worth to put work into a ww2 db for HCE.

 

 

Feel free to try it yourself, you may use my rudimentary WW2 db as a primer for your work/research.

 

Regards René

[CV32]

Right Brad. But IMHO this will change with the first Patch.

 

Well, some critical elements of gun engagements will change, Rene, but not the 'center to center' formation engagement issue. When trying to determine valid targets, the code looks first to see if the centers of the firing and target groups are in range, and if they are not, no examination of units in range is attempted. This obviously makes some close range gunnery encounters act entirely contrary to what you would expect in a real battle.

 

Is it possible to replenish at sea, much like an "inflight refueling"? That would solve the ammo problem. As an alternative, can the damage caused by the guns be multiplied by the number of tubes firing so that it simulates having fired more shots?

 

Yes for both

 

Umm, no. There is no capability for 'replenishment at sea' right now.

[divefreak]

Yes for both

 

Umm, no. There is no capability for 'replenishment at sea' right now.

 

Missread his sentence... you´re right...

[Buster]

René, I would like to add to and edit the WWII DB. What tools do I need, and where do I get them?

 

What is the format for the Res file format?

[TonyE]

Terry,

You should have a copy of HCE (Harpoon {Classic}: Commander's Edition), Microsoft Access version 97 or newer OR the Access runtime (we can get you a copy of the runtime if you don't have Access), then follow http://www.computerharpoon.com/wiki/main/i...e=HCCE:PE_Guide

 

If that's overwhelming, just ask and we'll help you thru it. The commondb.res file is very difficult to edit directly so that is what the PE (Platform Editor) and db_utils are for, to make editing easier, but still not for the feint of heart.

[Buster]

Terry,

You should have a copy of HCE (Harpoon {Classic}: Commander's Edition), Microsoft Access version 97 or newer OR the Access runtime (we can get you a copy of the runtime if you don't have Access), then follow http://www.computerharpoon.com/wiki/main/i...e=HCCE:PE_Guide

 

If that's overwhelming, just ask and we'll help you thru it. The commondb.res file is very difficult to edit directly so that is what the PE (Platform Editor) and db_utils are for, to make editing easier, but still not for the feint of heart.

 

Thanks Tony. I have what is needed - now I need to give it a try. I am going to experiment with the WWII DB in a new directory, just in case.

[gkm]

For my custom database I have been using some of the Harpoon 3 databases as a reference. The best way to simulate the old gun mounts is to model bursts instead of single rounds (of course this would mean modeling a slower rate of fire). Since Harpoon 3 models hit probability for single rounds (or in some cases single salvos, say from 4x1x6" casemate rifles of a battleship's secondary battery), this can be modeled where

P1 = 1-(1-P2)^n

where

P1 is the hit probability of the burst (0 to 1.00)

P2 is the hit probability of the individual shell (or salvo if a battery is modeled) (0 to 1.00)

n is the number of shells or salvos in the burst.

 

Damage points would be another matter. It would not be simply the number of damage points for a single round times the number of shells/salvos per burst - unless the gun was 100% accurate. So this is how I model the dp's

 

DP1 = DP2*(n)^P2

where

DP1 is the damage points for the burst

DP2 is the damage points for a single round/salvo

n is the number of shells/salvos in the burst

P2 is the hit probability of the individual shell (or salvo if a battery is modeled) (0 to 1.00)

 

Credit to the Harpoon HQ and the Yahoo group now minding the WW II database for Harpoon III

 

The custom database I am using has some old platforms that survived WW II. This includes some WW I era DD's - Clemson and Wickes class (completely useless in today's naval warfare except to be torpedo or missile sponges).