Grumble

I do not agree. This release is big enough by far to merit it's own topic. Please go ahead and open one, could be in General or under the Beta Testing and let's collect the new or rediscovered game play experiences there!

Could be the first salvo had poor pk rolls and did not destroy half (significant threat) of the Backfires? Try again, or, enjoy the videos . (Had to zip the video files to be allowed to upload.) DH00154A.zip DH00158E.zip

ECM (Jamming) vs radar detection (part 4) I was ready to write off barrage jamming as a useful tool since the EW aircraft has to approach the radar well within it's detection range before the barrage can be started, but I did not consider the parallel effect of escort jamming. As soon as the jammer is within the maximum theoretical range of the radar escort jamming is already affecting it. This can be very effective against fighter radars due to the smaller output power (range) of these. A Su-24 Fencer F EW aircraft escorting a Su-27 Flanker and Yak-141 freestyle will try approaching patrolling blue fighters. HDS1 Su-24MP Fencer F vs F-15C Eagle F-15C - APG-70 - 120nm Su-24MP Fencer F - Fencer ECM Pod - ECM Range 40nm The Fencer's ECM range is 1/3 of the Eagle's radar range so it can degrade it's performance with more then 2/3 !! The red group approaches from outside the Eagle's radar range then closes within direct ECM range. (In HDS1 the Freestyle and the Flanker has the same RCS (medium) so the graph shows just the Flanker.) The Flanker's medium size means that the APG-70 can ideally detect it from max 80nm only. Pretty scary. In the game the Eagle first detected the Fencer at 27nm due to the 30 second detection cycle and loiter heading changes. HDS1 Su-24MP Fencer F vs JAS.39 Gripen JAS.39 - PS-5/A - 85nm Su-24MP Fencer F - Fencer ECM Pod - ECM Range 40nm The Fencer's ECM obliterates the Gripen's radar already from standoff range. This effect is fortunately limited to targets in the close vicinity of the EW Fencer. The scariest in all this is that neither the Gripen nor the Eagle has ESM. The only sign of the approaching red group is the lightningbolt, no Staff Assistant, no uncertain ESM detection until the Fencer warps in at 23nm! I've just added ESM to the todo list. To be continued.

ECM (Jamming) vs radar detection (part 3) Lets take a look at some other Red Blue combinations. The test flights use the same arrangements, direct jamming and escort jamming with radial and tangential pass of radar targets over the jammer. HDS1 EF-111A Raven EW vs AEW IL-76TD Mainstay IL-76TD - Mainstay AS radar - 250nm EF-111A - ALQ-99 ECM Pod - ECM Range 50nm Direct ECM The Mainstay is tracking F-111F Aardvark (large), Tornado GR.4 (medium) and F-22 (small) targets while the Raven is closing in with ECM active. Escort ECM - targets closing The Mainstay is tracking the same targets (F-111F, Tornado GR.4, F-22) closing to the AEW plane. The Raven is between them, the targets pass over it. Data Escort ECM - targets crossing The targets are flying over the Raven perpendicular to the EW-AEW axis. Data The EF-111A escort ECM bubble front lobe 10nm back lobe 21nm side lobes 13nm EC2003 EA-18G Growler EW vs A-50U Mainstay A-50U Mainstay - Shmel M - 310nm EA-18G Growler - ALQ-99 ICAP III pod - ECM Range 50nm Direct ECM Escort ECM - targets closing Anomaly detected! ( ME2) There are strange spikes on the graph when the target is behind the Growler. The Growler produces these consistently, also these are not byproducts of the "detection gear", the very least the anomalous detection ranges can be seen in the raw log files. I first thought these are somehow related to the fact the the Growler has fighter radar, e.g. no 360 search and it is loitering, however the spikes appear at 2 minutes interval while loitering would induce 3 minutes cycles. Here is the raw data of the graph for the interested: I did a cross check, here the targets were loitering and the Growler was flying away from the radar. The spikes are gone! Could this still be related to the loitering? Escort ECM - targets crossing No anomaly. This contradicts the theory that the Growler's jamming effect would be dependent on the EW-radar or EW-target aspect. The EA-18G escort ECM bubble front lobe 8nm back lobe 25nm side lobes 13nm EC2003 Su-24MP Fencer F EW vs US Fighter radars Direct ECM Max detection ranges for US fighters against Su-27 while under barrage jamming from a Fencer F. Target will also need to hide below LOS or it will be detected well before ECM can significantly reduce the radar range, even with escort jamming effect added. Well, with the exception of the F-16C. **Hm, after a good night's sleep I need to reconsider this, better, lets send out the boys and try it, see next post. To be continued.

ECM (Jamming) vs radar detection (part 2) Second day at the Red Flag, I am going to take a closer look at escort jamming. I intend to test out other EW aircraft too but for now lets stick to the E-2D Hawkeye and the Tu-16P Badger J, two of the most powerful radar and EW gears. For now I intentionally exclude factors as line of sight (LOS) and weather so it is easier to deduce EW rules, however LOS will have to be tested soon. Tu-16J escort ECM (a.k.a. standoff jamming) of E-2D Hawkeye radar (EC2003 battleset) The direct jamming test flight showed that the appearance of the yellow lightningbolt does not mean that the marked radar is "jammed" in general and in all directions. The jammer has to be (very) close to the radar or to the plane it wants to mask. I'm going to test now how far does the coverage of the Badger's ECM reach. The Hawkeye is once again loiters over the Atlantic, our Badger some 270nm North of it, loitering too, ECM active. The Tu-95 Bear ELINT target will fly towards the Hawkeye from +400nm out on the axis of the Badger. The Bear will pass by the Badger as close as possible barring an accident. And here is the ELINT data. The negative half of the X axis shows when the Bear is further out than the EW Badger, the positive half is when the Bear has passed the Badger and is between it and the Hawkeye. This radial slice of the ECM "bubble" is asymmetric, stretches to -28nm away from the radar (back lobe) but only to +10nm towards the radar (main lobe). The escort bubble is also smaller than the direct bubble, remember the Badger's ECM range is 60nm. It can not be seen on the graph but the log shows that the jamming actually starts at 59nm from the Badger, but it has no practical effect that far from the ECM source, the radar burns through outside of the bubble. The maximum ECM effect, that is the degradation of the radar range in this case is ~30%, the Bear closely escorted by the Badger would only be detected by the Hawkeye at 272nm instead of 400nm. The escort ECM decreases the radar's effective range roughly with a proportion two times the fraction of ECM range to the radar's maximum range. E.g. the Badger's ECM range of 60nm is 15% of the 400nm range of the radar, so escort jamming can reduce the max detection range by 30%. For the second test the Bear will pass by the EW Badger perpendicular to the Badger-Hawkeye axis. and the data: The tangential slice of the bubble is symmetric, as expected. It is 17nm wide on both sides. Maximum ECM effect is fortunately the same when we were moving radially. We can draw the ECM bubble as this: Next post I will send up other EW and radar birds. To be continued.

Thanks guys! EW started with a question which turned into a hobby and now, I think, this is an obsession. I already got the escort jamming data, just need to find the time. But more to come soon.

Hm, have just downloaded to test it, I can load the file with DOS Harpoon. Erm, sorry for asking, have you unzipped it? You need the J03.hp1 file.

I was looking to understand jamming and ECM in general, how does it work in the game, the forums have some good posts on this but then ... why not ask the GE itself? In Harpoon I can do what ELINT officers can only dream of, invite the Russians to Red Flag! Lets come over the Atlantic for a friendly what have you got! Red can have Keflavik, Blue is flying from Kinloss. Bring everything you have. The SE sets up the bases nicely, we are all friends but better ready as many Ferry loadouts as possible. Additionally Air Marshall General Bernard Show All will also keep a sharp lookout for anyone giving in to old instincts. ELINT corps are strapping on ESM gear everywhere, the GE is already being trailed by a heavy load of "-l ecm" and "-l radar" debug flags and a hungry looking Perl script is ogling Miss Logfile so much so she can't help blushing. Lets get started. Maximum radar detection ranges Tony has posted an excel table to calculate maximum detection range based on target RCS and radar range, but the older battlesets have their embedded DB (RCS) and playing is anyway better than calculus. RCS values were rough cut in the classic and HDS battlesets, practically 3 RCS value was used to cover everything flying, small, medium, large. This is soon confirmed by the aircraft parading in front of the AEW radars. ACMI pods are spurting data, log file is being crunched and we got results. HDS1 AEW detection ranges The first surprise, the APY-1 radar on the E-3 does not have LDSD capability, has 50% reduced range against off altitude targets. Same for the IL76 Mainstay, no LDSD. For an up to date picture I switch to the EC2003 GIUK battleset. RCS values are more accurate here, there is more to crunch. EC2003 GIUK AEW detection ranges Blue sends up an E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, Red flies out the A-50U Mainstay, both have LDSD. Fighters pilots are also eager to test their gear. EC2003 GIUK Fighter radar detection ranges US Fighters Russian Fighters I wonder, was the LDSD flag removed from the Blue AEW planes to balance the game? The original GIUK and NACV had it. Check up of Blue AEW LDSD with few battlesets (feel free to extend it!): ECM (Jamming) vs radar detection (part 1) The Red Flag exercises confirm (reveal?) that the GE models two type of active ECM. The first type is "direct" jamming. It is also called "barrage" ECM in the literature. This is when the ECM gear is attempting to overwhelm the radar's emissions directly with brute force. The other is "escort" jamming. This covers different types of Deceptive ECM techniques when the EW plane protects other escorted planes by falsifying their returned radar signals (skin returns). The protected planes need to be in the vicinity of the EW plane for this to be effective. The following Red Flag missions will attempt to determine the effective active ECM ranges of the radar and EW planes and the size of the area an EW escort is able to cover. The game models ECM effect by degrading the effective detection range of the jammed radar. This is the only effect, for example probability of detection (pD) is not affected by ECM. Which are the active ECM pods? These are listed in the loadouts with TARGET=RADAR and have positive RANGE, that is RANGE is not "HORIZ" and not 0. They also have a HIT% but more on that in a separate post. The GE calculates with this ECM RANGE for both for direct and escort jamming, but in different ways. To be able to jam a radar directly the EW a/c has to be closer than ECM RANGE to the radar. To be able to jam radar detection of escorted a/c the EW a/c has to be closer than ECM RANGE to the escort. The EW a/c and the target a/c also both has to be inside the radar's range.The distance between the EW and radar aircraft can be much greater than that. Maximum allowed distance to radar for escort jamming is probably 10 x ECM RANGE. Tu-16J direct ECM of an E-2D Hawkeye On the first flight of the day an E-2D Hawkeye will be jammed by a Badger EW plane. The Hawkeye loiters in place, tracking a Tu-95K Bear bomber loitering 165nm to the West from the Hawkeye. The Bear has huge RCS and loiters on high, the Hawkeye can effectively detect it at it's maximum 400nm range. The Badger will merge with the Hawkeye closing from the North with ECM active. The Badger starts from 407nm out, outside of the Hawkeye's radar range. The ECM RANGE of the Badger's Buket ECM gear is 60nm. ELINT will measure the effectiveness (maximum effective range) of the Hawkeye's radar against the Bear as it is degraded by the Badger's jamming. The expectation is that the Hawkeye will detect the jamming as soon as the Badgers enters into it's radar range (indicated by the yellow lightning bolt) but this will have no effect on the detection of the Bear until the Badger closes within direct ECM range. (The Bear is outside of the escort range of the Badger, e.g. no escort/standoff jamming effect.) This is confirmed, the skin return of the Bear is strong enough to detect it out to 400nm all the way until the Badger closes within 60nm of the Hawkeye. Then the barrage starts and radar is degraded as the Badger closes, drops down to 52nm. (52nm is 13% of the 400nm, this is a rock bottom constant, more on that later.) The graph shows that between 60-80nm (and further out) there is no degradation. It starts at the 60nm distance, kicks in at 40nm and reaches it's maximum at 14nm. Next flight will be about testing out escort jamming. To be continued. Jump to part 2

Well, if you are walking through the versions you should not miss this, I'd be obliged... This savegame for example is from "Takover" GIUK 9.0, 3 F-16s from Bodo are intercepting 12 Tu-22 on vector for Orland. Playing with 1.54A the Backfires turn back (jettison) and try to escape after the first salvo from the Falcons. It feels good that the AI is actually reacting to being intercepted, more real too. Loading the same save with 1.58E the bombers just fly on regardless being decimated, no reaction, just stubborn dumbness. J03.zip

hi Silent Hunter! good to have a fix on you again, I much wanted to pose a question to you around March when I joined the forum, but the Staff Assistant told he lost contact with you by then. As far as I could see you were the only other pooner still toting around with the DOS game and you played versions from 1.32A to 1.54A too, this was the period when airtoground ordnance jettisioning worked, e.g. you could repel an attack of bombers without actually need to shoot down every last one of them. I know you strolled past these versions 2011-2012, still, any run in with jettisoning, story, funny comment to share?

Is it just me or did the forum's flash editor loose a feature recently, like since April? I'm pretty certain that earlier in reply posts I was able to split quoted text into separate paragraphs just by hitting enter on an empty row inside the quote. E.g. Now all I can do (if I want to reply in a nice formatted way) is copy the entire quote as many times as many comments I want to inject and delete the surplus parts of the quote from each segment. Squawk 7700 !

I much like it that the GE logs the missile hit calculation probabilities in the Message Log and I feel like I almost understand it ... but lets face it, I don't. So what is FPh, Ph, DPh? Ok, DPh must be the defending missile's hit probability from the Database. How does the other two work? [[At this point writing the post I got a strong feeling that this question must have been asked already and lo and behold http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/17720-noob-question/?p=36209]] There are still some questions after reading Tony's explanation. Here are two missile engagements from HDS1 10.0, I colored the bits I\'ve questions on: To Go 0:23:41:20 3 of 6xAS-6 Kingfish (Hi) Missiles Shot down by 6xAIM-120 AMRAAM (FPh=30 Ph=30, DPh=40) To Go 0:23:41:17 5 of 10xAS-6 Kingfish (Hi) Missiles Shot down by 10xAIM-9R Sidewinder (FPh=50 Ph=50, DPh=60) To Go 0:23:37:33 2 of 3xAS-6 Kingfish (Hi) Missiles Shot down by 8xAIM-120 AMRAAM (FPh=51 Ph=30, DPh=40) To Go 0:23:34:38 1 of 1xAS-6 Kingfish (Hi) Missiles Shot down by 2xPatriot (FPh=75 Ph=50, DPh=80) To Go 0:23:27:36 5 of 6xAS-6 Kingfish (Low) Missiles Shot down by 6xAIM-9L Sidewinder (FPh=70 Ph=70, DPh=50) To Go 0:23:27:34 3 of 3xAS-6 Kingfish (Low) Missiles Shot down by 6xAIM-9L Sidewinder (FPh=91 Ph=70, DPh=50) Is FPh the "FInal" Ph? E.g. does the GE work it out as DPh >calculate> Ph >calculate> FPh? Lets take a look: AMRAAM starts at DPh 40, vs. the hi Kingfish it has Ph 30. Is it as 40 DPh +20 non maneuvering target bonus (?) -30 +1300 kts target penalty = 30 Ph ? similar for the Sidewinders just they start to bet at 60. There were no active EW in the area. Would that modifier be applied at this step, e.g DPh to Ph? Btw. is it the missile or to the platform that has to be jammed to incur the penalty? E.g. will the Phoenix incur ECM penalty if the F-14 is out of range of the jamming? Is the +21 the AMRAAM gets at 0:23:37:33 the multiple missiles per target bonus? 30 DPh +21 multiple missiles per target = 51 Ph? Does this bonus apply only for missile targets or also against aircraft? And why is it 21? I mean why not 20? Just when it starts make sense come the Patriots at 0:23:34:38 Why do these not get the 20 bonus the AAMs got? Is there a perhaps a built in "terminal dive" penalty for SAMs? These Patriots were fired from Reykjavik and the target was Keflavik, so it was more mid course for the Patriots. And what is +25 at the end? 80 DPh +20 non maneuver (?) -20 terminal dive (?) -30 +1300 kts target penalty = 50 Ph +25 what is this? = 75 FPh The AIM-9L Sidewinder got it easy against the low Kingfish as it skims at mere 792 kts, a 9R could get a guaranteed hit here, 101.

The Aegis crew does not need to collect driftwood for the evening campfire, that's for sure. But looking at those picture as the missile passes through it's own hot exhaust flames made me wonder whether the body of the SM-3, actually any MK41 VLS launched missile for that matter, has to be specially designed to withstand the inferno at launch? There could be even more extreme conditions inside the box than what we can see above the plenum. A Mk-13 launch certainly looks less stressful for the weapon. Or is it just the slow-mo deceiving the eye and a rocket would anyway need to be sturdy enough to take this on?

Lets continue. GT 00:12:00 A pair of Tornados transiting to the North W.haven BARCAP patrol zone spots a group of Nanuchkas just exiting the Baltic. The contact is quickly lost but I dispatch a Sea King helo with SS radar in their direction from Leuchars and start to rearm the Jaguars with Alarm and Sea Eagle missiles. GT 00:12:25 :o A question that nobody wants to hear, that is whether I want to counter-fire a torpedo down on the incoming bearing? 5 very small torpedo contacts detected by the Manchester group, probably was picked up by HMS Manchester herself in the main body! Taking a closer look at the group formation the commander's mistake is obvious. The Manchester group started at a 145degree course, I have set up ASW patrols in the SE sectors, but the group has turned to 40 degrees E some 6 hours ago to transit the English Channel, their NE quadrant was fully exposed . Sigh, wish HCE would also have the ASW patrol zones tied to the PIM. There is not much to do, the torpedos are already within 3nm doing 55kts, Frio Dolphin bravely throws herself in their path, the rest of the group turns South at flank speed. The first torpedo misses the Dophin, so does the rest but these four then sinks Amsterdam and Eastern Valor . 16 of 18 transport ships remaining. As the group slows down the Type 22/3 Chatam's towed array detects the attacker 7nm from the main group, too close, the swarming helos throw some 10 Stingrays on it for good measure and the Akula SSN is quickly sunk. The Hawes group arrives by this time, the two groups join up, set up ASW patrols properly to the E and sail on towards W.haven. GT 00:13:00 The Sea King reestablishes contact with the Nanuchkas. The Jaguars take off. GT 00:13:30 We have an exact fix on surface group ZOS. It is the BCGN Kalinin and CG Azov, plus Krestas, Sovremenny, Neustrashimyu, Udaloys esorting amphibious ships. around GT 00:14:00 The Jaguars sink the Nanuchkas and also the AGI Okean the Sea King has found on it's return trip. I send a Sea King AEW from Ark Royal to shadow the Kalinin group and to help Baton Rouge maneuver. GT 00:15:00 Baton Rouge is right in the path of the Kalinin group. I want to fire my torpedos from the relative position pointed at by the blue arrow, I estimate that creeping to the W at 5 kts will take the sub there. But instead I end up at the tip of the red arrow. I did not consider the closing speed of the red group. (Ok, I will take my navigator with me next time ). Worse, when I saw that the picket Udaloy will pass right over Baton Rouge I fired a torpedo at it and that was from within 5 miles. Predictably the whole group turns on active sonar and the Udaloy detects Baton Rouge and she is destroyed by standoff ASW weapons. STOP. << RWD GT 00:15:00 Baton Rouge is right in the path of the Kalinin group. The NAVIGATOR informs the commander of Baton Rouge they need to speed up to 10kts to reach the planned torpedo firing position relative to the BCGN. When they are in postion the Baton Rouge fires Mk48 and ADCAP torpedos at the Kalinin, Azov, the Udaloy and the Neustrashimyy (which is blocking the escape path). When the whole group goes active sonar an SSN is also revealed in the South picket position. GT 00:16:00 At least one torpedo impacts on all targeted ships and they are sunk. The rest of the group is taken care of by F-16s with HARMs, the Ark Royal's Sea Harriers with Alarms and the Leuchars Jaguars finish off with Sea Eagles. One Neustrahimiyy stays afloat and I fire 4 Harpoons at it from the Swiftsure which send her under. GT 00:18:00 Soon though the Swiftsure has an incoming torpedo out of nowhere. Fortunately she is able to outrun it. Hmm, the Swiftsure was cruising when I ordered it to launch Harpoons. She has risen to shallow for that, but crusing at shallow means cavitation so the SSN, of which we have lost contact after it has turned off sonar, must have detected and attacked with a standoff torpedo. Fortunately it did not have an exact fix on us. The torpedo was 4nm off target. Lesson, need to slow to creep when firing missiles from sub! Baton Rouge and Swiftsure both starts patrol to the E looking for the lost SSN. GT 00:18:55 The Leuchars BARCAP Tornados detect 4 Tu-22 bombers and shoot them down with Sidewinders and guns. GT 00:22:00 The Okecie fighter control picked up a habit of sending Mig-31s one by one ( ! ???) after the W.haven East BARCAP flight of 6 F-15s. The F-15s countered the superior range of the AA-9 Amos missiles with a split maneuvre: while 4 F-15s remained high, on station with active radar, 2 F-15s split off and approache the Mig with radars off targeting it via JTIDS. This was working well, except one time when the hunter pair fired 3 and 3 and 2 AMRAAMs on the Mig without scoring , then the Mig fired 6 Amos on the 4 F-15s, I let them reach the Eagles to test whether the random generator started to throw 0s only, all 4 Eagles were destroyed . This ended up RWD. GT 01:07:30 New contact, large sub from the Upholder. Got an exact fix, the enemy sub is only at 3nm, Upholder is inside active sonar range, can't risk an attack now. I try to keep shadowing the sub while moving Upholder out of sonar range. Finally it is at 7nm away and I've a Sea King above too, this combination is lethal the Charlie II is sunk at GT 01:09:30 by 3 air launched Stingrays. GT 01:17:00 New contact, ASW helo patrol of Ark Royal detects SSGN Charlie I via sonubuoy, some 26nm out from the main body. Sea Kings are sent to intercept, the group slows to 5kts, to stay out of range of the Charlie. GT 01:17:15 The Charlie is sinking. GT 01:17:30 Ark Royal ferries two of her Lynx-es to the Nottingham group, which only has two helos for ASW patrol. All groups are now in the Northern Sea. O'bannon searches for subs coming out of the Baltic. Ark Royal is cruising for the center of the UK coast to cover the return leg of the transport groups with helo patrols. Currently I've ordered the group to stand still so that London, Cumberland and Sheffield uses creep speed to change patrol sectors as they reconfigure formation for a South PIM. If I allow the group even just to creep the ships changing formation are going at flank speed, asking for torpedoes. I also do not dare to speed the Nottingham group above 5kts. Only the Phoebe of the escorts has a towed array sonar and a single pair of helos are patrolling ahead. That pair from the Ark Royal is much needed. The Manchester-Hawes groups cruises at 10kts, they are better covered thanks to the Perry and the Type 22/3 Chatham plus some 10 helos. Both of these will need to go at high speed on the return leg to reach the UK coasts before the time limit. Still, by then, these waters will have been searched at least once. Upholder and Baton Rouge are now also patrolling the area. GT 02:01:00 O'bannon's Seahawk detects a sub via MAD, 25nm out. The Seahawks are out of sonubuoys, the Moinesters Seasprite is dispatched, finds the Kilo and sinks it. GT 02:03:00 Ark Royal's Sea King detects sub with MAD, 37nm from the group. A Tango. The second torpedo hits it, the Tango surfaces with 85% damage, fortunately my ships are out of visual range, so it can not broadcast targeting coordinates on me. The crew gets a few minutes to get out and the helo sinks it. GT 02:06:40 Ark Royal, Sea King, sonubuoy, 34nm, Tango. I love Sea Kings, got 4 torpedos. GT 02:07:10 Ark Royal, Sea King, MAD, 44nm, Kilo GT 02:09:10 Nottingham, Lynx, MAD, 10nm A Tango lie in wait right in front of Wilhelmshaven, no cake mister. GT 02:09:30 The 2nd Armor starts to embark. GT 02:11:30 Heading home GT 02:21:00 Nottingham, Manchester, Hawes are 50nm from the coast. Victory conditions are not triggered, but the boys of the 2nd Armor know it full well, I won't be buying beers when they are around.

Does the GE grant a bonus pK roll for good Air Combat Maneuvers? Hard pressed by a Mig-31 a flight of Wethersfield F-15s perform an offensive split maneuver. The high Eagle falls back with active radar, the low one races ahead with radar off and fires 3 AMRAAMs at the Mig. The reward, a bonus kill roll: 173939 combat2.c:325 - Checkmount(id = 0x4000, AIM-9R Sidewinder) sets retval to TRUE because wtype 0x18 & type 0x10 != 0 173940 combat3.c:1477 - AirToAirResolution Ph: 40, Roll: 20 173940 combat3.c:1477 - AirToAirResolution Ph: 40, Roll: 48 173940 combat3.c:1477 - AirToAirResolution Ph: 40, Roll: 53 173940 combat3.c:1477 - AirToAirResolution Ph: 40, Roll: 56 173940 effect4.c:5176 - CheckAirMissileHits 3 x AIM-120 AMRAAM against RED 1 x MiG-31 Foxhound, 1 hits What has happened here? Why were there 4 rolls for 3 missiles?

HDS1 4.0 Sichelshnih, turned out for me the best scenario for a long time, it really surprised me, I started to feel like doing an AAR half way through it, thus I have no notes for the first part but I have some save games to work from. I'm playing blue side. Scenario background is the US 2nd armored division being surrounded in Germany, at Willhelmshaven, need to be evacuated in 3 days, shipped to the UK via sealift. Victory conditions look interesting, game time limit is 3 days AND at least 12 transport ships (MRCH) must embark at W.haven (be on station for 1 hour) AND at least 10 MRCH need to reach the UK coasts (onsta 1 hour) AND W.haven port has to be protected for minimum 40 hours (onsta). The total victory condition is a HUMINT piece, sink 1 BCGN, ouch. (For some reason the total condition is ORed, we will treat it as ANDed.) Here is a map of the scenario, it's at 4 hours game time, so the surface groups are still around their starting positions. Blue forces are Norwegian Sea, North of UK, (AFC) Ark Royal carrier group, with Type 42 Type 22 escorts, 12 Sea Harriers (AES) O'bannon destroyer group, Imp. Spruance, Knox and and O.H. Perry at the UK coast in front of Edinburgh (airbase Leuchars) (ABS) Nottingham sealift group, 6xMRCH with Type 42, Type 21 and a Leander escort South of Ireland and West of the English Channel (ACS) Manchester sealift group, 6xMRCH with Type 42 and Type 22 escorts (ADS) Hawes sealift group, 6xMRCH with O.H. Perry and Knox escorts The surface groups are on course to enter the North Sea via the shortest route, sealift groups are steaming for W.haven. Blue has, already in the North Sea off the coasts of UK and Norway, 3 subs, the SSN Baton Rouge (Los Angeles), SSN Swiftsure and SS Upholder. Air support is provided from airbases Leuchars (8 Tornado F3, 10 Jaguar GR.1 plus helos) and Wethersfield (12 F-15C, 6 F-16C and helos). There is also a squadron of 8 AH-1W Super Cobras station at W.haven. Important to note the lack of fixed wing AEW! Hence helos with good search radars will be very important. OPFOR threat is expected to be primarily submarine and surface based though fighters from Sola and Okecie will be a problem plus there is the ever present threat of long range bombers from Murmansk. Murmansk is a big burden on blue, combined with the lack of long range AEW means strict EMCON is permanent for all surface units and possible approaches to blue bases will have to be patrolled at long range. HUMINT also tells us there is a BCGN somewhere, probably entering from the North but might already be in the North Sea. Plus who knows what will come out of the Baltic? Start Surface groups form up for high speed transiting, HVUs and AAW ships in the main body, ASW escorts patrolling only the front sectors but only out to the AAW ring, there are precious few of them, sprint-drifting in the ASW ring would just present them as torpedo targets plus leave them totally vulnerable against an air threat at the edge of the SAM range. ASW helo patrols are sent out to 40nm to lay sonubuoy arrays in the picket ring, there is just enough of them for the 2 front sectors facing the PIM. We are sailing on prayers. All groups go at cruise speed except Nottingham which is the closest to W.haven already in the North Sea, so they go at creep. The subs start to patrol the North Sea, to be able to confront the BCGN should it be there. Unfortunately only the Ark Royal's Harriers start equipped with AMRAAMs, so Leuchars and Wethersfield need to start by rearming the Tornados and F-15s, we just have to hope there is nobody in the air nearby ( ). But W.haven is too exposed even for that hope, at only 400nm from Sola and Okecie, so 6 F-15s from Wethersfield take off immediately for a W.haven CAP, they will just have to do with the Sparrows on the first sortie or we might loose the port and everything. Leuchars also only does 4 Tornados first, keeping the other four in Ready 5 with Skyflash-es to avoid a pants down. Actually the Sola base is just too inconvenient to bear, it's air search radars cover half of the North Sea and even short legged a/c-s can reach any sealift route from there. It has to be eliminated for the 2nd armor to have any chance to fight an other day! The first good news coming in is the INTEL that Sola has only short range SAM and ELINT confirms after a few minutes there is no AEW stationed there either. Leuchars Jaguars have a reasonable chance with the 37nm Alarms! The Wethersfield F-16s with 70nm HARMs could safely take care of the radar but then it would be left to the Jaguars to do ground damage and they would need to fly over Sola for a bombing run (no ASuW standoff loadout). That's not an acceptable risk with Sola just launching fighters annoyed by the ARM attack. I also can't tie down large part of my available fighter force to cover a second run at Sola, turn around time is like 2.5 hours and I need my fighters to fly several long range BARCAPs for my bases latest 3 hours from start, Murmansk is just 1200nm away! and the W.haven CAP will also be bingo, if not winchester by then. So it will be the F16s with Mavericks which can be fired from 13nm out, with the tripple ejectors they carry 6 per plane, hopefully 36 Mavs should leave just bits and pieces on the ground. (Only now that I write this I realize I should have used the Tomahawk TLAMs from the O'bannon and Baton Rouge for ground pound!!) OPFOR hasn't showed yet fortunately. As soon as ground crews finish, shortly after Game Time (GT) 00:00:30, the Sola air strike groups start to leave 4 F-15s with AMRAAMs from Wethersfield take off first for primary MIGCAP, they head for 70nm South of Sola. The plan is they will pop up, turn on radars and eliminate, but at least draw away South, the Sola fighter CAP just before the ground strike groups start their final run. 2 F-15s remain at Wethersfield for anything unexpected. 6 F-16s with Mavericks leave next, they need to be on target last but Wethersfield is 200nm farther from Sola than Leuchars. The F-16s will attack from SW. 4 Tornado ADVs with AMRAAMs from Leuchars head for 60nm NW of Sola, these will be the reserve MIGCAP, should the Sola fighters prove to be a handful for the Eagles and also as FORCAP for the Jaguars, should those be detected before they can fire the Alarms. 10 Jaguar GR.1s with 2 Alarms each from Leuchars, these will attack Sola from W. At GT 00:01:10 the 4 F-15s, 80nm S of Sola turn North on high and switch radars on. They pick up 3 contacts at 50 to 70nm. One of these detaches from the base formation ( a cheat again) now tagged ZJA, unfortunately the Jaguars, 55nm W of Sola, are apparently too close and ZJA turns to intercept them instead of the F-15s. The Jaguars digress towards North to evade and to get closer to the reserve Tornados, 55nm NW of Sola. The same time 6 small contacts take off from Sola, tagged ZIA, and vector for the F-15s, the party is on. The Tornados dispatch of group ZJA with 5 AMRAAMs, they were Mig23 Flogger Gs, some relief, at least not Flankers or Fulcrums. (Those are very hard for the AMRAAMs in HDS1 which sets AMRAAM base PK at a ridiculous 40%). The Jaguars close in on Sola which is launching more MIGs. The Tornados dispatch one more pair of Floggers and then the Jags are in position to launch the Alarms. In the meantime the F-15s engage ZIA, shoot down 4 with AMRAAMs, evade the AA-7 Apexes and use Sidewinders on the remaining two Floggers. (The Apex has virtually 0 PK over the F-15 on full afterburner, +1300kts bonus, this is the positive side (or an other drawback) of the too low AAM PK in the battleset, also it is gaming the game, but I silence my conscience saying that the Floggers would have anyway been unable to achieve and maintain radar lock for the SARH Apex while evading 6 of my 10 AMRAAMs) The MIGs taking off from Sola waste all their long range AAMs on the incoming Alarms. The base shoots down 8 more with 16 Hawk SAMs but 9 still hits the base and knocks off the radars! Tadaam. Around this time the F16s are arriving from the SW and soon scare the hell out of the commander as they report 4 visual contacts at 7nm! One of the contacts the F-15s picked up, still in the base formation, not showing on the group map, wondered just across the ingress of the F-16s!! The plan goes up in flames ... Or not? The Falcons are still flying. Turns out these are Mig27s, an ASuW patrol, without AAMs to speak of. Down they go under barrage of Sidewinders from the F-16s. The radars are off, MIGs are down or returned to base on winchester, two of them is actually chasing the Jags with AA-8 only, the Tornados could take them but Jags ask for the privilege and notch up their first air to airs with Sidewinders. The F-16s go in for it free, 29 of the 36 Mavs are on target, the base is not destroyed but takes 56% damage and 5 planes and a helo are also destroyed on the ground. Probably it will be ok for the Jags to return unescorted with bombs to finish it off. All groups head for their home bases, the Tornados have fuel enough to do it on full burners, even the F-15s can use military power all the way home, this will help to make them available sooner for BARCAP. Just to complete the Sola part of the AAR at GT 00:03:20 6 Jags return after refuelling and rearming with laser guided bombs and destroy the base, they did not encounter any MIGs on the way. With Sola out of the way, 4 Tornados that were rearmed to AMRAAMs during the Sola strike, are launched to fly BARCAP in two twoships. They head to patrol zones 350nm from Leuchars and W.haven on the direct path to Murmansk. The AI bombers are known to be a straight minded bunch. Everything seems to be under control. Only a recon Foxbat and two sleepwalking Flankers arrive to W.haven from Okecie, but these are easily dispatched by the BARCAP. I realize that the subs will take too long to sweep the North Sea. As Sola is no longer a factor I can send one Sea King from Leuchars and Wethersfield each to scan the sea with radar, they have just 500nm range but they can cover most everything except the entrance to the Baltic. They come up empty so I turn Baton Rouge and Swiftsure to the North as the BCGN will surely come from there. Around GT 00:04:00 the Leuchars Tornado BARCAP picks up a contact to the North just off the coast of Norway, they id it as an AEW Helix with 50nm AAW ring, I have a feeling we have found our BCGN. The helo is doing 15kts in 190 degrees, Baton Rouge and Swiftsure adjust their course to intercept it's path. Everything looks good, all pieces will soon be where I want them. At GT 00:05:30 bit of nasty surprise, the W.haven North BARCAP Tornados find a trio of Mig31s coming up on their ass out of Okecie. Those MIGs are armed with 80nm Amos AAMs! All they can do is get out of the way, fortunately the MIGs are not going after them, rather they vector for the Leuchars BARCAP Tornados. The BCGN must have tipped off Okecie fighter control and they scrambled killer MIGs for the planes shadowing them! They can do but scram, fortunately the Tornado has better cruise speed and range than the MIG and they soon give up chase. Still the Murmansk - Leuchars bomber corridor was left unwatched for good half our. Gives an itchy feeling. Fortunately nothing came through the window. Not for long though. GT 00:06:30 Both the North (2xTornado) and East (6xF-15) BARCAP of W.haven realize that their radars are being jammed!! No one knows since when as for once the Staff Assistant was silent on this!! ( ) I don't even have bearing on the jammers! The F-15s are just 40nm E of W.haven so they head East to burn through the jamming. The Tornados are 350nm N of W.haven, the EW plane can be anywhere around them, they hope for the best and head to North towards Murmansk. The APG-70s of the Eagles burn through the noise only to find a flock of Kh-31P Krypton ARMs screaming for W.haven. Worse they are 20nm North of the Krypton's flight path, will not be able to meet them head on. They fire all their AMRAAMs on the ARMs astern and continue on burners to the E in the hope find the attackers and make them pay for this. Just as they go bingo they pick up Su-24 Fencers at low at 50nm to the E. But the F-15s need to turn back to Wethersfield, low on fuel. W.haven scrambles 3 Super Cobras in desperation and readies it's SAMs. The Cobras bring down 2 Kryptons, SAMs do two more. But 2 Kryptons get through. When the missiles are only at 5nm I switch W.haven radar off. I have actually experimented here some, with radars "on" the Kryptons knocked radars off two out of two, with radars "off" they did just 1% damage and 1% plus air search radar. Still not sure though if switching radars off makes a difference for the Kryptons. I continue with 1% damage but with air radars because as dust settles I switch back the base radar and it picks up the Tu-16 EW Badger at 289nm to the North well behind the BARCAP Tornados . Without the base radar it is 1:0 for red already as the Badgers could have launched on W.haven and I would have only known it on impact. The other shift of BARCAP F-15s arrive from Wethersfield, they are only 40nm W of W.haven, I kick them on burners to reach the axis of any incoming Kingfishes asap. The Tornados also speed up to military to intercept the Badgers. Fortunately the Badgers do not launch at W.haven from the maximum range, perhaps they were looking for ships with 110nm ASM Kingfishes? The Tornados intercept them some 200nm from W.haven. 1 Badger J EW, 1 Badger D Recon and 4 Badger G bomber. Nasty pack. But it is not over yet. The F-15 are still North of W.haven and I also sent all the Cobras that way when 16 Kh-5 Kingbolts pop up from the E. Luckily these are relatively slow missiles at 660kts, the Hawk SAMs do good job on them, only 4 gets through and does 27% damage on the port. Question: W.haven status info shows there are still 128 SAMs available but the AAW ring is only 3nm radius, like guns only. Are these 128 remaining SAMs all short range? Or how long does it take to reload the Hawk batteries? Now it's over. I move the East BARCAP further out to the East, to 100nm. Apparently the F Fencers with their new ECM POD and the 85nm Krypton ARM are very dangerous. Here a relatively quiet period follows until GT 00:12:30, I will continue with that in my next post.

With Enrique's permission, here is the document with reformatted tables plus Enrique has added second table for World War II and earlier time periods. Modificaciones Harpoon Aircraft Carriers Capacity 2013.pdf

. I guess this is where most long time 'pooners converge. And I hope to see the GE catch up one day...

If you read my reply to your other post probably you know already what I'm going to say . Yes, this is an other AI weakness and for me it smells like chippin' too. I hope one day we will have an AI that will do a risk/benefit analysis before sending his planes one by one, fully exposed into enemy radar cover close to an enemy base. At least plot a course for them which is not coming directly from their base. But if you got enough game time, AEW planes and fighters to do this the scenario is not challenging anyway. Why not make it one? Try to go after the base where the fighters are coming from. Design a strike that can destroy all of them on the ground! So, you are right, but that necessary AI modification to remedy this is BVR, we need to lend a hand to the AI via challenging our own selves.

This is because I'm not interested in engaging the base's fighter patrols (no chipping away ), I should just need one missile for the AEW. I go in low or vlow, try to aim at the AEW in a "slot" between the patrols, close to the range of probable radar detection, 130nm-ish for an A50 vs F-111F and make an afterburning dash from there. An F-16 would need to fight it's way in and then out too, that's chippin' for me. I'm here assuming a reasonable patrol formation on the AI side, e.g. the AEW is not outside or on the edge of the CAP. Also I'm on the classic battlesets, an F-16 can maximum have AMRAAM, 40nm, that's only 30nm plus. What more, the F-16 (F-18) lacks the speed to disengage, it would either be a suicide mission (I'm not interested) or would need more fighters to cover the egress (chippin'). The "beauty" in this is that this works even when the AI does not make a mistakes, actually might even work against a human opponent. E.g. the properly set up base patrols go blind (against low or vlow attack) right before the strike comes in, from the peaceful South. No, I should draw away the intercepting fighters by egressing the F-111 to the West or East, start with escape speed low enough so that the interceptors give chase and leave them in the dust when they are off center. This is why it is key to have speed advantage and plenty of range, preferably a tanker too on the egress route just outside of the threat zone. Yes, of course, it is a personal preference how we find enjoyment in the game and there is much of that whichever way we play. Harpoon was designed as a battlefield level strategic simulator, stress simulator, so as close to reality as possible, hence the blessed depth and accuracy of the DB. After I exploited the weaknesses of the AI and the lack of logistics model for the first 1000 times I become interested in tactics and ordnances that would be forced on a real commander by crude reality. So, sometimes, I deliberately handicap myself or develop tactics not strictly necessary to defeat the AI, much the same as you do with the B52 ALCMs. Those are not always available to a field commander. More on this from Brad: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/12731-advanced-rules-for-hce-play/ and for the interested the Logistics Pipe Dream: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/2176-replenishment-at-sea/

I do go after the AEW plane if I can, therefore I actually prefer if it patrols the South perimeter. My strike template is: Enemy base is, say, to the NW, I plan to attack it from S. About an hour before ground strike send fighters from the E, as many waves as available, engage the base CAP BVR if I have AAM range advantage but no dogfight, draw as many fighters away as possible. The goal is that the CAP sent to intercept will be sitting on the ground at the time of the strike. Even if they don't chase until bingo they will still be E of the base and the ingress. Then go after the AEW right before my strike group enters radar detection range. If there is a handy flight of F-14s around the choice is obvious, tag the Mainstay with a Phoenix. Next best thing is an F-111F (or Mig25 playing red), the LR Guided loadout comes with Sidewinders and plenty of range. Refuel if I can and send pair of Varks on burner after the AEW. Unless they are right in the way, Fulcrums, Flankers can't keep up. Of course, we don't do this if there are Foxbats at home. Now the lights are off, send in the strike team, knock off the base's radar if possible (have ARMs) so the heavy legged boys can do their job unmolested. GBU-15 is a favorite but it has 4nm range only, not good if SAMs are active. If all works well even a heavily defended base is leveled in one strike, so no chipping away at the intercepting fighters one by one, that's for sissies.

In other words, the calmer the sea along the detection path the stronger the layer effect. Please feel free to let these questions just lay here until you will have the time to continue the ASW 101 but I just need to put them here. What is "4"? Is this a rule constant or is this some other function of the sea states? And how do you get 5 if it is a constant? And the big question of course, how does the layer modify detection? And many more. Thanks Brad, will be hard to wait.

I read it somewhere that the thermocline is always between the Shallow and Intermed bands. And it has (had?) some effects, this is an update from the v1.32 (DOS version) release notes: README.132 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Submarines attempt to put the thermocline between themselves and searching torpedoes. A bug in this code caused them to always change to snorkel depth. Hope someone can answer my question on this in the ASW 101 topic: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/18895-work-on-tactics-101-asw-part-4-resumes/

Perhaps this is the good topic for this question. How does Harpoon model the Thermocline? Early (DOS version) release notes mentioned penalties for cross layer detection. What effects were/are coded actually?