Grumble

Yes, the Lynx carries the "Sea Spray" SS radar, 40nm range. But... Most blue ships have only Exocets, 23nm, not really OTH weapon. The stronges groups have two ships with Harpoons, 16 total. One of these managed to maneuver in range of CVH Viraat, after the Lynx id.ed them launched all the poons on the CVH. No chance, the Viraat's four quad SA-N-9 launchers easily dispatched them with the two Kashin IIs occasionally taking a bite for sport. There is CVH Viraat in the North just below Calcutta with 16 Harriers. CVH Vikrant and CVA Cochin is entering the Bay via Sri Lanka. The Cochin carries 16 Yak-141 Freestyles! The second group has less then 100% probability to be included. There are also Tu-95Ds and 4 Il-38s in Calcutta and 6 ASW Alize in Port Blair. There is one blue ship with 8 Aspide SAM and one with a few SeaCats, the rest can only use guns for AA. I even tried to "ambush" an Alize with SeaCats This Alize was studiously lugging AS.12 rockets in pairs on my group from Port Blair. The AS.12 has 4.2nm range SeaCat is 3nm. I split off the SeaCat ship from the group and sent it 3nm north towards Port Blair with radars off and turned them on only when Alize was in range attacking the main group. It launched 2 cats but could not get a hit. On an Alize! Yeah, well, we know these classic scenarios are not balanced and I accept them as "real" the way they come from the box. Still, against the computer AI, you see a way to win usually. Here? Perhaps hiding 20 ships in the bottom right corner of the map and chase the Indian subs with your subs? The order text is fair enough: You must try to stop India from militarily dominating the Bay of Bengal. While we are outclassed, a determined fight might encourage intervention by the western nations and give us leverage in the inevitable United Nations negotiations. just don't see a way to preserve 20 ships in a determined fight agains these odds.

Not even that, the pumas can't ferry anywhere, I just looked up the DB, the Super Puma requires a Large Helipad and none of the ships (frigates mostly) have that. Naah, blue is doomed.

Was there an AAR on IOPG 8.0 Regional Power? This is Bangladesh, Thailand, and Indonesia against India in the Bay of Bengal. The blue side seems so hopeless I wonder if anyone ever played this through? Here is how it went this time. --------------------------------------------------- Blue forces are about 30-35 surface units, few old British and Chinese built frigates, some 25 PTMs assigned to 6 surface groups, two Indonesian Type 1300s submarines and 16 Super Puma helicopters from the Indonesian AFB, Sabang. Two groups, AAs and ABs are postioned 100nm east of Calcutta, ACs, PTMs only, are in the Palk Straight between India and Sri Lanka, the rest is scattered south of the Andaman Islands. Since no units posses any AAW capability to speak off all groups go strict EMCON, those few that have shipborne helos send out pickets, the rest of the groups split the fastest craft, usually a PTM, from the main group and send it out to scout in the hope that they can at least detect submarines by outrunnig torpedos. At 0/00:01 group AAs and ABs detects ESM recon Tu-95 taking of from Calcutta, they are well in detection range of the Big Bulge AS and are soon painted by radar. They go active and both groups turn directly to Calcutta in the hope that they can at least engage targets before the inevitable. AA02 PTM Hegu "Duranta" is the fastest PTM, the fleet commander orders it to leave the group East-South-East at flank speed under strict EMCON after transferring the logbooks of the rest of the ships on board in wetbags. At 0/00:05 AB00 "Ali Haider" detects small a/c on 254 degrees at 48 nm, Sea Harriers!! The group is doomed without even a chance to go down fighting, the crews say farwell to each other. At 0/00:09 group detects missile contacts at 255 degrees at 14nm. 0/00:10 two Sea Eagles impact on Hainan "P817" and it sinks. the same minute AB00 "Ali Haider" is hit by 4 missiles and sinks. 0/00:11 AB07 "Tawfiq" is hit and sinks. The Devanāgarī is relentless, group AAs is also under attack by Sea Harriers. 0/00:39 AA00 "Abu Bakr" is hit and goes under. And so it goes, all ten ships are sunk in quick succession. Meantime PTM "Duranta" is some 15nm SE of the, now, debris field, doing 38knots, even the ligths are turned off but there is a violent row on the bridge, the XO histerically demands the captain every minute that their radars must go active since the Big Bulge is still painting them. Finally the CO need to pull a gun on him and XO is carried off the bridge, captain knows full well that their only chance if rough seas somehow hide them in clutter while they make it out of range of the Calcutta Harriers. But even the cool head of their captain can't save them, two Sea Eagles impact on the hull out of nowhere at 0/00:50 and "Duranta" goes under in 10 seconds, CO and XO finally find their peace. There are no blue units left in the Northern half of the Bay. Then boring hours come punctuated by sheer terror AT 0/07:10 a cadet on AM00 "Udomet" spots a missile at 2nm, the crew bairly has time to radio bearing of the missiles to the commander of ADs for which it was running scout picket before it is hit by two Styx missiles and sinks. ADs send send their single Sea Lynx down the bearing and soon discover 3 OSA I attack boats. Two Harpoons are launched on each and they are sunk. -------------------------------------------------- However at this time I had 19 surface units left and Minimum Victory condition 1 is to have 20 ships on station in the Bay for 120 hours, so I rather start to search for an AAR on this scenario. Anyone?

As for renaming the AB, sorry, no clue. Which battleset has this unit btw.? Regarding the SE inclusion probabilities, I can see no way either to get SE to confess, but, well, how desperate are you? Binary comparing two user scenarios which only differ in inclusion probability reveals that unit information is stored in 20 bytes chunks, group name (in ascii text) on bytes 3,4,5 and unit probability on byte 20. The Nanuchkas are group ZZS in Dawn patrol, so I'm looking for string "ZZS" and checking the 18th byte from Z. Assuming the units are listed in same numerical order as in GE then unit ZZ02 "Tyfun" has 30% chance to be included, the other 3 is 100%. See So for a battleset scenario save it as a standalone scenario open it with a hexviewer (this was vbindiff) look for the first appearance of the group name from the start of the file check the 18th byte (in vbindiff this is the byte immediately below the 2nd char of the group name) if you see ascii "d" or 0x64 that's 100, anything less is a probability Of course this was quick&dirty on a small scenario file, so lets hope larger scenarios will not be creative on us. Also here is the complete Dawn hex dump for target practice. dawn.pdf And now I hope someone does not come up in the next post that if you press CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-P the SE burps up a the prob.

Congratulation Tony, best wishes to the family! Take time off the bridge!

I know I was spoiled when I got replies for all my first posts, but now I can only think that the last one is only being overlooked since it is at the bottom of the pile at the previous page of this topic. So here I go again, copying post #15: ----------------------------------------------------- But let me dump here more of my thoughts on jettisoning, what could be done within the game, who knows, some of this might give you ideas that can be implemented. So, aircraft groups which are attacked by a sufficient number of fighters in air-to-air combat will jettison all air-to-ground ordnance (and abort their mission). A significant threat level must be exceeded before attack a/c will jettison. I used "50%" and "0.5" for "significant" but 50% might just be too high, 50% is not an acceptable loss on a single mission IMO. Thus for game rules we look at air groups jettisoning when significant portion of the air group has been destroyed group/side detected significant number of incoming missiles group/side detected significant number of enemy fighters within gun range and the group is known to be detected with high probability 1. significant part destroyed This is the straightforward part, if the group is decimated it jettisons and aborts, even if they did not detect the threat. ** Interesting to play with the thought that this check will also jettison and turn home the group if half (significant part) of them is lost due to pilot error while flying at vlow. A possible side effect but not unrealistic. A crazy brass orders the flight to go tree top for 300nm without TFR??? 2-3 mates hit the dirt the pilots go "up yours!" and turn home. 2. significant number of missiles incoming Important that these are missiles detected by the group or friendlies as discussed above. Significant number is (again, significant=50% only as an example) more incoming missiles than group_size * 0.5 * ph_of_missile If the code makes this possible, I'd use the final ph with modifiers applied, so if, say, there is a standoff EW aircraft in the area that modifies the missile ph it would modify also the jettison decision. As if implying a veteran pilot who trusts the Prowler to toast the enemy radars while going in. Mental note: there might be more than a single detected incoming missile group, which cumulatively exceed the threat level. 3. bandits in gun range This is probably the most complex, since there is no (at least no apparent) detection event linked to bandits closing within gun range. We might get the fix (and the detection event) well outside of gun range and then the bandit just closes in under fix. Fortunately there are several events that I feel relevant (realistic to use) to which the gun range tests can be linked. But first a proposed significant "gun bandit threat number" formula more bandits than group_size * 0.5 * ph_of_guns / gun_rounds_per_fighter and these are of course bandits in range with exact fix on, otherwise we don't know the position, distance, number of them anyway. As for the events, perform "bandits in gun range" test after these events: any member of the group is shot down (see shotdown.jpg). E.g. pilot checks six if wingman goes down. the group is detected by hostile radar (see RWR.jpg). This event seems to be generated at two minutes intervals when the group is within hostile radar detection range. Perfect. Pilot certainly checks six periodically when RWR is alight. ** I trust this event also correctly handles stealth aircraft, e.g. B-2 is not reminded by the Staff Assistant to go active when flying into enemy radar. Lets apply the same filter for the jettison test. the group knows it's within visual range of hostiles (see visual.jpg). ** Again, apply same filter for jettison as for the general visual detection of stealth a/c. if the group is being engaded by guns (even if it misses). If not before, the group becomes aware when bullets are zipping. These events also solve the "the group knows it's being detected" criteria since these imply that the group has already been detected (1st and 4th point, engaged too) or is probably detected (2nd and 3rd). The jettison is triggered by these events and does not happen immediately when bandits cross the line, which is just as well in a fog of war. An observant theatre commander might want to warn them sooner though a manual jettison key could be handy (CTRL-J?). After jettisoning How to make jettisoning attractive? Make sure the jettisoning aircraft also benefits from it and can defend itself better. (The intercepting one obviously achieves it's goal of defending the HVU easier but also more realistically with jettisoning enforced.) The obvious way is to give a DATA bonus to the jettisoning aircraft. Like aircraft after jettisoning benefits from a modified DATA of ( loadout_DATA + best_loadout_DATA ) / 2 For example an F/A-18 on an Antirunway sortie (Anti-run DATA=20, best_loadout=Intercept DATA=45) could use a DATA of (20+45)/2=32.5 after ditching those durandals. (2nd edition) Or keep it simple and lets just use the best DATA of the a/c after jettisioning. Aborting I guess removing the air-to-ground ordenance triggers the "out-of-ammo returning home" routine already, but that might not always be preferred. A reverse direction and max throttle feels better, the "no orders" and/or "bingo fuel" will catch the group then. But I wonder, when jettisoning, could the AI plot a course that reverses direction of the group uses highest available throttle settings 10nm long with a Staff Note attached to the end "Group XXX has been intercepted, jettisoned a/g ordnance, please plot a course out of the threat zone!" thanks.

Vow, honored. Also these rules were basically the rules from the DOS version v1.32a as far as I can tell from the release notes and from playing that version. But let me dump here more of my thoughts on jettisoning, what could be done within the game, who knows, some of this might give you ideas that can be implemented. So, aircraft groups which are attacked by a sufficient number of fighters in air-to-air combat will jettison all air-to-ground ordnance (and abort their mission). A significant threat level must be exceeded before attack a/c will jettison. I used "50%" and "0.5" for "significant" but 50% might just be too high, 50% is not an acceptable loss on a single mission IMO. Thus for game rules we look at air groups jettisoning when significant portion of the air group has been destroyed group/side detected significant number of incoming missiles group/side detected significant number of enemy fighters within gun range and the group is known to be detected with high probability 1. significant part destroyed This is the straightforward part, if the group is decimated it jettisons and aborts, even if they did not detect the threat. ** Interesting to play with the thought that this check will also jettison and turn home the group if half (significant part) of them is lost due to pilot error while flying at vlow. A possible side effect but not unrealistic. A crazy brass orders the flight to go tree top for 300nm without TFR??? 2-3 mates hit the dirt the pilots go "up yours!" and turn home. 2. significant number of missiles incoming Important that these are missiles detected by the group or friendlies as discussed above. Significant number is (again, significant=50% only as an example) more incoming missiles than group_size * 0.5 * ph_of_missile If the code makes this possible, I'd use the final ph with modifiers applied, so if, say, there is a standoff EW aircraft in the area that modifies the missile ph it would modify also the jettison decision. As if implying a veteran pilot who trusts the Prowler to toast the enemy radars while going in. Mental note: there might be more than a single detected incoming missile group, which cumulatively exceed the threat level. 3. bandits in gun range This is probably the most complex, since there is no (at least no apparent) detection event linked to bandits closing within gun range. We might get the fix (and the detection event) well outside of gun range and then the bandit just closes in under fix. Fortunately there are several events that I feel relevant (realistic to use) to which the gun range tests can be linked. But first a proposed significant "gun bandit threat number" formula more bandits than group_size * 0.5 * ph_of_guns / gun_rounds_per_fighter and these are of course bandits in range with exact fix on, otherwise we don't know the position, distance, number of them anyway. As for the events, perform "bandits in gun range" test after these events: any member of the group is shot down (see shotdown.jpg). E.g. pilot checks six if wingman goes down. the group is detected by hostile radar (see RWR.jpg). This event seems to be generated at two minutes intervals when the group is within hostile radar detection range. Perfect. Pilot certainly checks six periodically when RWR is alight.** I trust this event also correctly handles stealth aircraft, e.g. B-2 is not reminded by the Staff Assistant to go active when flying into enemy radar. Lets apply the same filter for the jettison test. the group knows it's within visual range of hostiles (see visual.jpg).** Again, apply same filter for jettison as for the general visual detection of stealth a/c. if the group is being engaded by guns (even if it misses). If not before, the group becomes aware when bullets are zipping. These events also solve the "the group knows it's being detected" criteria since these imply that the group has already been detected (1st and 4th point, engaged too) or is probably detected (2nd and 3rd). The jettison is triggered by these events and does not happen immediately when bandits cross the line, which is just as well in a fog of war. An observant theatre commander might want to warn them sooner though a manual jettison key could be handy (CTRL-J?). After jettisoning How to make jettisoning attractive? Make sure the jettisoning aircraft also benefits from it and can defend itself better. (The intercepting one obviously achieves it's goal of defending the HVU easier but also more realistically with jettisoning enforced.) The obvious way is to give a DATA bonus to the jettisoning aircraft. Like aircraft after jettisoning benefits from a modified DATA of ( loadout_DATA + best_loadout_DATA ) / 2 For example an F/A-18 on an Antirunway sortie (Anti-run DATA=20, best_loadout=Intercept DATA=45) could use a DATA of (20+45)/2=32.5 after ditching those durandals. Aborting I guess removing the air-to-ground ordenance triggers the "out-of-ammo returning home" routine already, but that might not always be preferred. A reverse direction and max throttle feels better, the "no orders" and/or "bingo fuel" will catch the group then. But I wonder, when jettisoning, could the AI plot a course that reverses direction of the group uses highest available throttle settings 10nm long with a Staff Note attached to the end "Group XXX has been intercepted, jettisoned a/g ordnance, please plot a course out of the threat zone!" thanks.

(AFAIK) Currently HCE does not model the deployment of individual chaff/flare rather the effects of these are embedded into the plane's (loadout's) DATA (Defensive ATA) ratings. Use of countermeasures is "assumed" and it all comes down to chance of survival, to the "die roll", when the missile's ATA competes against the target's DATA. A plane gets DATA bonus for onboard chaff/flare dispenser or ECM just as for high maneuverability, these both improve the chance of survival. Some loadouts also include ECM ordnances, check for example the Tornado GR.1 Guided loadout in the NACV battleset. There is a "Sky Shadow ECM Pod" with 15%, and a "BOZ 100 Chf/Flr Pod" with 10% modifier. I'm not sure though if these are applied to the die rolls or to the radar detection rolls. Yeah, would be great but aspect is not (yet?) modelled for firing solutions, anything within 3nm is considered a gun firing solution, so currently we need jettison regardless of aspect. But we should strike up a topic on firing solutions and hope that Tony will bite on it . I so much hate those Mig25s launching Acrids on my rear aspect interceptors without ever twitching their nose. Comeon, armies spent billions on toys like JHMCS and AIM-9X, you can't do it just like that.

A possible approach is to link the jettison test/decision to follow friendly detection events as opposed to linking it to follow hostile launch events. This way pilots will not "magically" know they need to jettison when being launched at, rather they "worry" only after the threat is detected. Assuming jettison threat level is exceeded in the attached situation the Bear jettisons only when visually detects the incoming Phoenix at 9nm but has not jettisoned when the Tomcats launched 100nm further out (undetected). This would be good enough for real already I think. Plus should sometime detection routines be further developed to cater for the Phonix radar going active for terminal approach jettisoning might just become close to perfect with the same code.

Jettisoning is a run or die decision pilots make when the RWR lights up or they spot a big column of white smoke rise from the ground at 10 o'clock. So this is the pilot's decision and happens only when missiles are incoming, in immediate danger of being shot down. I'd like to see the game emulate what the individual pilot does (e.g. jettison) while I'm taking the decisions of the theatre commander. E.g. send a CAP in front of the strike force to roll back the fighter cover or reroute or abort the mission if AWACS tells me they are being intercepted. So as for a rule idea something like jettison when (say) 50% of the group has been engaged, that is more than 50% destroyed or detected large number of missiles incoming (group size < no. of missiles * 0.5 * ph of missile) or detected arge number of enemy fighters within gun range and the group is also being painted by radar (more than group size / 2 fighters) And this is for the air to ground ordenance only, AAMs are not jettisoned. Would be great if this is triggered only after the side/group becomes aware of the threat. E.g. a SARH AAM triggers when launched, active homing AAM triggers when it's switching to terminal guidance and IR missiles might not at all (only after 50% of the group is spinning in flames). An air force with only Mig-21s up against F-14s will have their nose bloodied. It was tried in 1975 over Satt-el-Arab by Saddam. (There were F4s too.) Even after 1981 when Mirage F1EQs were added F14s were given a big berth. And that was with a real dictator waiting on the ground. So, yes, I'd say pilots do jettison when missiles are incoming and I'd love my Harpoon pilots do the same if I let them come harms way. And the same for the computer oppenent. No, only if missiles are incoming or being painted and bandits are in gun range. Though it will not make much of a difference for a B-2 by then. I'd say the role of the theatre commander is to plan the strike in a way that there will be no need to jettison. But if it comes to that it's the pilot's decision, the theatre commander is usually not in the cockpit, it's not his life on the line. He might order the flight to jettison, yes, but will not be able to prevent it. Btw. there was a manual jettison, Alt-J, in the DOS version starting from v1.32.

Thanks Tony for the welcome. The HCE release notes are exemplary, just reading them makes me salivate , but the classic versions from 132A above have nothing comparable, at least not in the UE directories, the last comprehensive notes are in README.132 in the DH00132 dir for the 132 version. Anything more out there on 151 through 158E to 163D? This (README.132) by the way has notes on jettisoning rules, pretty reasonable: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Air-to-Ground Jettisons Aircraft which are attacked by a sufficient number of fighters in air-to-air combat will jettison all air-to-ground ordnance and abort their mission! If you find your attack aircraft suddenly have no more air-to-ground ordnance, chances are good that you let enemy fighters get too close. Tactics: It is now *much* more important to establish at least temporary air superiority over strike routes. Send fighters ahead of strike packages to keep the enemy fighters busy. and numerical details in the bug fixes ---------------------------------------------------------------- The aircraft Air-to-Ground ordnance jettison logic would drop ordnance too easily in some cases. A significant threat level must be exceeded before attack a/c will jettison (about 25% of the attack a/c must be threatened). Some problems involving unformed airgroups jettisoning ordnance have also been addressed. I guess the hooks are there to trigger this, that is when SA warns air group xxA to turn radars on for missiles are incoming is about the right time for the AI to jettison (if threat level exceeded). Of course there are also cannon engagements, hmm. BTW would aircraft benefit from unloaded DATA after jettisoning a/g ordenance?

Aah, the smell of the Ocean! Intro: I was an avid Harpooner in the 90's with 132a, then bought H2, fought the bugs and though this game was dead. Recently somehow a googled Harpoon and was I in for surprise. I now have UE installed waiting to relive all the past glory and more. Save the best for last I decided to take a tour of the classic battlesets with the latest classic version of the game. Having finished anno with 132a I already immensly enjoy aerial refuelling, Stornoway Tornado GR1s waited a long time to settle the score with the Kildistenroy Bears . While the last versions improved the control over AAW missile engagement they have broken the AG ordenance jettisoning routines. Bombers doggedly vector for their target until they slaughtered to the last. 154A seems to be the last version where they turn tail when intercepted. For those still interested attached GIUK save file with Tornado F3s closing on a group of Bears. No jettisoning (abort) with 157A/158E, also note the Tornados do not engage with cannons, only with 154A. I've not found anything on this in the forums, has this been discussed? Was there perhaps a fix or workaround for 158E for this? Is 154A the best version for scenarios where you defend against bombers? (But I love the staff assistant asking me if I want fighters to launch at incoming missiles in range ) What is the tradeoff between these versions? In general, are there release notes or similar for versions above 132A detailing the improvements, fixes? thanks a bunch! JETTISON.zip