I started a re-play of MiddleWeights (from WestPac) last Monday because that is the scenario where the "impervious F-16s" occurred. From the git-go, it was apparent that this session was not going to "cooperate" - at least not to the extent that I had seen in that one horrendous session. However, early on, I did get a save of one measley instance that resembles the situation. I then continued to play the scenario over the past few days, in hopes that the behavior would change over time (as it sometimes does), and give additional/better examples. Well, tonight, things were a bit more cooperative, and I have two more saves of other instances of the situation... and also a save of one which appears to be a case of the "invincible AI air group" situation! Unexpected jackpot! And, as an added bonus, there are even a couple saves of instances of the "invisible AI missiles". I've written up the "play by play" in a text file, to help you see what to look for, and how I actually conducted the play from the savepoints. Hopefully, all this will provide what you want to know... but I'm continuing to play the samre session in hopes of capturing more instances, as well as getting some saves of another behavior that doesn't seem just right to me. Ugh! I was able to attach the text descriptions file, but it is rejecting all my game save files... so I'll have to go figure out how to submit them... stand by... Hopefully, that worked....

 

Thanks for posting the savegames and descriptions.

 

I took a very quick look at your first 'impervious F-16s' savegame, and managed to shoot down 6x F-16s with 6x AIM-120A/B AMRAAMs in a couple of minutes play.

I started a re-play of MiddleWeights (from WestPac) last Monday because that is the scenario where the "impervious F-16s" occurred. From the git-go, it was apparent that this session was not going to "cooperate" - at least not to the extent that I had seen in that one horrendous session. However, early on, I did get a save of one measley instance that resembles the situation. I then continued to play the scenario over the past few days, in hopes that the behavior would change over time (as it sometimes does), and give additional/better examples. Well, tonight, things were a bit more cooperative, and I have two more saves of other instances of the situation... and also a save of one which appears to be a case of the "invincible AI air group" situation! Unexpected jackpot! And, as an added bonus, there are even a couple saves of instances of the "invisible AI missiles". I've written up the "play by play" in a text file, to help you see what to look for, and how I actually conducted the play from the savepoints. Hopefully, all this will provide what you want to know... but I'm continuing to play the samre session in hopes of capturing more instances, as well as getting some saves of another behavior that doesn't seem just right to me. Ugh! I was able to attach the text descriptions file, but it is rejecting all my game save files... so I'll have to go figure out how to submit them... stand by... Hopefully, that worked....

 

Thanks for posting the savegames and descriptions.

 

I took a very quick look at your first 'impervious F-16s' savegame, and managed to shoot down 6x F-16s with 6x AIM-120A/B AMRAAMs in a couple of minutes play.

 

Well, I had a sneaking suspicion that would happen. All I can say is, when I played it here, it played out as described in the accompanying text. Also, as noted above, this particular session was not behaving at all the same as the session where I couldn't kill an AI's F-16 if my life depended on it. This time out, I was able to reasonably kill all - or most - of several other 3-4 plane F-16 groups during this game session... so far, at least. But the session is still "young": it's only been running for five days so far.

 

I will say one thing, though: I've never achieved that 1:1 missile-to-kill ratio in this game, and actually, I don't recall ever having that happen in any game... so, obviously, there is some difference between here and there... but, I've been admonished not to "speculate" on possible cause(s), so I'll refrain.

 

BTW, just in case it's not clear, all of those game saves came from the same game session, at various points along the way.

 

I found some other game saves in the directory while doing this, so I'll play them at some point and see if they are perhaps the earlier saves that I thought that I had "lost" when I re-installed the 2009.042 version. Probably not, although I don't recall saving any games for any other reason, so... who knows?

Looking at some of your saves:

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles.USNI-hp2

The fired AMRAAMs are only auto-detected upon launch if you had detected the attacking F-16s with Radar or Visual sensors before the F-16s fired. I expect you detected the F-16s after the fact and as a result the F-15s had to do the hard work of detecting the missiles.

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles2.USNI-hp2

Same deal, the F-16s are pretty stealthy. Without the auto-detect your F-15's radar can detect the AMRAAM at a max range of 28nm. That is further docked by realizing radar only sweeps once every 30 seconds. Then the kicker is that your F-15s are running away so the radars are pointed in the opposite direction of the missiles so won't detect them anyway (hence the Visual detection just before they hit).

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles3.USNI-hp2

I expect ditto on the F-15s not seeing the incoming AMRAAMs (again from the F-16s). Under ideal conditions your F-15 can detect the KF-16 at 47nm and life is rarely ideal. I'm coming up with range numbers using http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?a...amp;showfile=28 in combination with the PE. In theory you could do the same but finding the RCS numbers will be tougher for you. You'd have to ask some kind soul to provide them or turn on radar logging and dig them out of there. Your planes probably didn't outrun the missiles as a result of the F-16s firing them before you were out of the no escape zone.

 

As for the AI not doing the little missile avoidance maneuver... What I do know from the code is that the little jink only happens if the missile is already detected and that is likely to be true only if the launching plane was exactly detected. It also only happens if the planes aren't already doing the jinking thing. Ah, and there more key, the jink will only happen if the target aircraft (in this case the AI F-16s) are not intercepting the firing player planes. So strike aircraft would jink but the F-16s with your F-15s as a target will not, to them attacking is more important.

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles3.USNI-hp2

Missile spoof... The F-16 probably maneuvered and was not in the expected position when the AMRAAMs got to their activation point. The AMRAAMs didn't have an easy time re-acquiring the F-16s and for the most part went stupid (sometimes it is interesting/hilarious to see Phoenix and AMRAAMs dance all over, unrealistically, looking for the target). The 80% only applies to the final hit determination, not any disasters caused by non-ideal shots and tricky targets changing course/speed.

 

 

AutoSave - impervious F-16s.USNI-hp2

When I run the save, the blue missiles do reach CWM first. The AI missiles crashed and burned due to lack of range before they got to CHA. The blue missiles also got three hits. You can load your saved games in a second copy of the game to check your results. Sometimes you do just get crappy rolls of the die. The F-16 does also have countermeasures that right off the bat cut the PH by 15%. It is also pretty nimble decreasing the PH more.

 

 

AutoSave - impervious F-16s2.USNI-hp2

So I do a rough calculation that says I can probably fire my AMRAAM once I get within 30nm of the fleeing F-16. For a little buffer I don't fire until 25nm separates my F-15s from the F-16s. Fired 3 x AIM-120 and waited. VBA goes down in flames. So lessons might be to make sure you are really close enough to the enemy for him not to escape, for a better hit chance fire at least two AAMs per target (there is a bonus for firing 2+ per target), and if you can manage it have your firing platform not detected by the target platform to deny the AI the auto-detect of your missiles.

 

 

Them's my 2 cents as such.

Looking at some of your saves:

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles.USNI-hp2

The fired AMRAAMs are only auto-detected upon launch if you had detected the attacking F-16s with Radar or Visual sensors before the F-16s fired. I expect you detected the F-16s after the fact and as a result the F-15s had to do the hard work of detecting the missiles.

 

Actually, most all of the F-16 groups in this scenario seem to be operating with their radars active at most times - I guess this is due to the proximity of my AWACs, plus a lot of my fighter groups have been advised to turn on their radars. (Interestingly, in this scenario, just about the only AI air groups that run without radar active (sometimes) are the Rafales). Also, the F-16 groups that are involved in the specific demo cases were detected - hence the reason that I was intercepting them...

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles2.USNI-hp2

Same deal, the F-16s are pretty stealthy. Without the auto-detect your F-15's radar can detect the AMRAAM at a max range of 28nm. That is further docked by realizing radar only sweeps once every 30 seconds. Then the kicker is that your F-15s are running away so the radars are pointed in the opposite direction of the missiles so won't detect them anyway (hence the Visual detection just before they hit).

 

Keep in mind, though, that the F-15s were facing the detected F-16s up to the time the F-15's missiles were launched, so theoretically at least, the AMRAAMs ought to be detected at launch time - like they are in most cases. Due to the comparable missiles on each side in this scenario, I used the same "launch, turn and burn" tactics in all engagements, so I'd kind of expect somewhat the same results in each case... which is why these cases were puzzling.

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles3.USNI-hp2

I expect ditto on the F-15s not seeing the incoming AMRAAMs (again from the F-16s). Under ideal conditions your F-15 can detect the KF-16 at 47nm and life is rarely ideal. I'm coming up with range numbers using http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?a...amp;showfile=28 in combination with the PE. In theory you could do the same but finding the RCS numbers will be tougher for you. You'd have to ask some kind soul to provide them or turn on radar logging and dig them out of there. Your planes probably didn't outrun the missiles as a result of the F-16s firing them before you were out of the no escape zone.

 

Again, I'm pretty sure all of the involved F-16 groups were "globally visible and "fixed"" well before the engagements began, so I'm not so sure that detection of the air groups is the issue.

 

You've reminded me of a question that I've been meaning to ask: What is this "no escape zone" business, anyway? I'm getting that reported even for groups that are nowhere near enemy groups. (???)

 

As for the AI not doing the little missile avoidance maneuver... What I do know from the code is that the little jink only happens if the missile is already detected and that is likely to be true only if the launching plane was exactly detected. It also only happens if the planes aren't already doing the jinking thing. Ah, and there more key, the jink will only happen if the target aircraft (in this case the AI F-16s) are not intercepting the firing player planes. So strike aircraft would jink but the F-16s with your F-15s as a target will not, to them attacking is more important.

 

I'm not with you on this business... what is that in reference to?

 

 

AutoSave - Invisible AI missiles3.USNI-hp2

Missile spoof... The F-16 probably maneuvered and was not in the expected position when the AMRAAMs got to their activation point. The AMRAAMs didn't have an easy time re-acquiring the F-16s and for the most part went stupid (sometimes it is interesting/hilarious to see Phoenix and AMRAAMs dance all over, unrealistically, looking for the target). The 80% only applies to the final hit determination, not any disasters caused by non-ideal shots and tricky targets changing course/speed.

 

Apparently, the F-15s are unable to "out-maneuver" the AIM-120's in this same way, then? The AI missiles regularly achieve 100% hit rates on my F-15's... although my AIM-120s have nowhere near that hit rate against the AI's F-15K Slam Eagles. Are those F-15s also more "capable" than the F-15J Pluses?

 

Any idea what causes the difference with the F-16's that I do manage to get hits on? As far as I know, all engagements occurred more or less identically, but only some of my missiles "go nuts"... and none of the AI's missiles do. I'm also curious how CV32 accompishes the 1:1 missile-to-kill rate - because, even if I close the range to ensure a "good" shot before firing (which, of course, leads to the guaranteed loss of my attacking group), all of my missiles will, more likely than not, miss. So, there must be some additional "tricks".

 

(Just curious: If I fire a salvo of missiles, does it become an "all or none" situation as far as hits resolution? Or, in other words, would each missile's hit be resolved independently, giving a higher hit probability, if they were fired individually instead of in a salvo?)

 

 

AutoSave - impervious F-16s.USNI-hp2

When I run the save, the blue missiles do reach CWM first. The AI missiles crashed and burned due to lack of range before they got to CHA. The blue missiles also got three hits. You can load your saved games in a second copy of the game to check your results. Sometimes you do just get crappy rolls of the die. The F-16 does also have countermeasures that right off the bat cut the PH by 15%. It is also pretty nimble decreasing the PH more.

 

Hmmm.... I haven't re-run these saved games to see if the results vary from time to time! I didn't realize that I could run multiple copies of the game simultaneously - without interference - so I never tried.

 

Double Hmmm... Does this imply that in any given game session, things tend to randomize similarly, and that I need to run a new session of the game in order to affect this?? (This would have some consistency with the variability of results that I see, game to game).

 

AutoSave - impervious F-16s2.USNI-hp2

So I do a rough calculation that says I can probably fire my AMRAAM once I get within 30nm of the fleeing F-16. For a little buffer I don't fire until 25nm separates my F-15s from the F-16s. Fired 3 x AIM-120 and waited. VBA goes down in flames. ...

 

Hmmm.... Here, VBA never did flee - well, except momentarily in one case - and always seemed to be in pursuit of my nearest air group. Anyway, I did close and fire the last two AIM-120s from just outside the range of the F-16's AIM-9P missiles - but with no effect. Was this too close? All of the other salvos were fired from about 75%-80% of the 40 nm range of the AIM-120A/Bs - or about 30-35 miles out. This is as close as I can get and still have a chance to bug out and escape the F-16s' AIM-120s.

 

 

... So lessons might be to make sure you are really close enough to the enemy for him not to escape, for a better hit chance fire at least two AAMs per target (there is a bonus for firing 2+ per target), and if you can manage it have your firing platform not detected by the target platform to deny the AI the auto-detect of your missiles.

 

That's good to know - about the 2x missiles, and the non-detection of the firing platform.

 

By the way: that's a pet peeve: The AI always seems to know the whereabouts of my air groups - even when I can't find any means they have to detect my groups - like due to distance from nearest AI unit, or lack of AI AWACS, etc. Howcum? Also, is there some way to tell whether or not the AI really is detecting any particular group of mine?

 

 

Them's my 2 cents as such.

 

Thanks! That's helpful... but I still am concerned about whether the behaviors are the same, game to game, or system to system, as it sounds like you're mostly not observing exactly the same effects that I find here.

You've reminded me of a question that I've been meaning to ask: What is this "no escape zone" business, anyway? I'm getting that reported even for groups that are nowhere near enemy groups. (???)

You may be getting the report as a result of being in SAM range or some other platform you are missing. I only meant it in regards to comparing relative speed of missile and target to make sure the target won't exhaust the missile's range.

 

As for the AI not doing the little missile avoidance maneuver... What I do know from the code is that the little jink only happens if the missile is already detected and that is likely to be true only if the launching plane was exactly detected. It also only happens if the planes aren't already doing the jinking thing. Ah, and there more key, the jink will only happen if the target aircraft (in this case the AI F-16s) are not intercepting the firing player planes. So strike aircraft would jink but the F-16s with your F-15s as a target will not, to them attacking is more important.

 

I'm not with you on this business... what is that in reference to?

You've been going on about the AI supposedly being neutered in capabilities and suggested the AI wasn't doing its avoidance trick, I'm saying it (the little jink) is still there when the situation merits but that the improvement in the radar model has reduced the number of situations where it is merited.

 

AutoSave - impervious F-16s2.USNI-hp2

So I do a rough calculation that says I can probably fire my AMRAAM once I get within 30nm of the fleeing F-16. For a little buffer I don't fire until 25nm separates my F-15s from the F-16s. Fired 3 x AIM-120 and waited. VBA goes down in flames. ...

 

Hmmm.... Here, VBA never did flee - well, except momentarily in one case - and always seemed to be in pursuit of my nearest air group. Anyway, I did close and fire the last two AIM-120s from just outside the range of the F-16's AIM-9P missiles - but with no effect. Was this too close? All of the other salvos were fired from about 75%-80% of the 40 nm range of the AIM-120A/Bs - or about 30-35 miles out. This is as close as I can get and still have a chance to bug out and escape the F-16s' AIM-120s.

Um, trying different tactics is one of the reasons for playing the game, try it yourself.

 

By the way: that's a pet peeve: The AI always seems to know the whereabouts of my air groups - even when I can't find any means they have to detect my groups - like due to distance from nearest AI unit, or lack of AI AWACS, etc. Howcum? Also, is there some way to tell whether or not the AI really is detecting any particular group of mine?

As I've said before, use logging (radar logging in this case) and you can go back and prove to yourself when the AI gets a detect. For the millionth time, it isn't magic and the AI isn't cheating on detects.

 

 

 

Regarding the rest, yes, like the paper rules most events are resolved with a roll of the die and if you load a saved game, everything from that point on gets different rolls, they are not predetermined at game start. So you can load a generic save with missiles in the air and get hits 0 to number of missiles times each iteration but with enough iterations you'll see a trend towards an average that takes into account weapon PH and all other factors in the engagement.

You've reminded me of a question that I've been meaning to ask: What is this "no escape zone" business, anyway? I'm getting that reported even for groups that are nowhere near enemy groups. (???)

You may be getting the report as a result of being in SAM range or some other platform you are missing. I only meant it in regards to comparing relative speed of missile and target to make sure the target won't exhaust the missile's range.

Apparently, I'm missing some AI detection platform(s) in a lot of cases... but that's another topic. Getting back to my original question, what is this "no escape zone", and what is its significance?

 

 

As for the AI not doing the little missile avoidance maneuver... What I do know from the code is that the little jink only happens if the missile is already detected and that is likely to be true only if the launching plane was exactly detected. It also only happens if the planes aren't already doing the jinking thing. Ah, and there more key, the jink will only happen if the target aircraft (in this case the AI F-16s) are not intercepting the firing player planes. So strike aircraft would jink but the F-16s with your F-15s as a target will not, to them attacking is more important.

 

I'm not with you on this business... what is that in reference to?

You've been going on about the AI supposedly being neutered in capabilities and suggested the AI wasn't doing its avoidance trick, I'm saying it (the little jink) is still there when the situation merits but that the improvement in the radar model has reduced the number of situations where it is merited.

 

Still not with you... unless, by AI, you are referring to stuff that the player's groups do. I don't recall claiming that the AI (that is, the computer opponent) has been neutered in any way whatsoever... just the opposite.

 

 

 

Hmmm.... Here, VBA never did flee - well, except momentarily in one case - and always seemed to be in pursuit of my nearest air group. Anyway, I did close and fire the last two AIM-120s from just outside the range of the F-16's AIM-9P missiles - but with no effect. Was this too close? All of the other salvos were fired from about 75%-80% of the 40 nm range of the AIM-120A/Bs - or about 30-35 miles out. This is as close as I can get and still have a chance to bug out and escape the F-16s' AIM-120s.

Um, trying different tactics is one of the reasons for playing the game, try it yourself.

 

Not with you here, either: I was saying that I had tried firing at VBA from several ranges - from about 30-35 nm out, down to the range of the F-15J's IR missiles - whatever that is - all with equal non-effect. That's why I refer to this type of group as "invincible" - because they slough off whatever I throw at them, regardless of the type of weapon or the launch range.

 

 

By the way: that's a pet peeve: The AI always seems to know the whereabouts of my air groups - even when I can't find any means they have to detect my groups - like due to distance from nearest AI unit, or lack of AI AWACS, etc. Howcum? Also, is there some way to tell whether or not the AI really is detecting any particular group of mine?

As I've said before, use logging (radar logging in this case) and you can go back and prove to yourself when the AI gets a detect. For the millionth time, it isn't magic and the AI isn't cheating on detects.

 

My concern isn't so much about when the AI gets a detect on my groups, as how it's doing it - when there isn't any AI platform(s) around that should be capable of making a detection. Would this logging stuff that you keep mentioning reveal this aspect as well?

 

 

Regarding the rest, yes, like the paper rules most events are resolved with a roll of the die and if you load a saved game, everything from that point on gets different rolls, they are not predetermined at game start. So you can load a generic save with missiles in the air and get hits 0 to number of missiles times each iteration but with enough iterations you'll see a trend towards an average that takes into account weapon PH and all other factors in the engagement.

 

Then, if the problem here has to do with randomizing, I should be able to re-load a save into a given session and get varying results, correct? I ask because this doesn't seem to be the case here; instead, VBA plays out pretty consistently as long as I stay in the same session... but I do see some variability of play-out if I exit the session and then start a new one and load the save into the new session - as I've mentioned before. That's what seems so weird about all this. (It's also why I have been doubtful about the value of game saves for capturing these particular glitches).

Apparently, I'm missing some AI detection platform(s) in a lot of cases... but that's another topic. Getting back to my original question, what is this "no escape zone", and what is its significance?

 

 

The "no escape zone" is a term of art in air to air warfare. It refers to the envelope (speed of launch platform, target speed, target range, target angle, target maneuverability, etc, etc) within which, if an AAM is launched, it will have enough energy and maneuverability that its target aircraft will have no reasonable hope of escape. There are a number of different factors to consider, and the results will vary from target to target, and even from moment to moment with the same target, depending on circumstances. The actual, real-world size and shape of the zone tends to be classified information.

The "no escape zone" is a term of art in air to air warfare. It refers to the envelope (speed of launch platform, target speed, target range, target angle, target maneuverability, etc, etc) within which, if an AAM is launched, it will have enough energy and maneuverability that its target aircraft will have no reasonable hope of escape. There are a number of different factors to consider, and the results will vary from target to target, and even from moment to moment with the same target, depending on circumstances. The actual, real-world size and shape of the zone tends to be classified information.

 

Thanks! That's what I surmised, but I wasn't so sure because the tone and context of the pop-ups that reported this situation appeared to mean that my (i.e. - the player's) air group had "committed suicide" (be entering this zone), yet I don't recall any of my groups ever getting killed in that situation... so I thought maybe it implied something else entirely. Seems like I saw it applied to my surface groups, too, on a couple of occasions; if so, then I assume it was referring to formation aircraft in those groups?

 

Anyway, it was a new report that I hadn't encountered in the past, so I wanted to find out what it was all about.

OK, I've recently spent quite a bit of time re-playing... and re-playiing... and re-playing the Middleweights scenario (because that is the one where the apparent abnormally low player's missile hit rates and other weirdness seems to be most apparent), and I've tried several different tactics when attempting to attack the AI air groups. Still, the results were fairly consistent across the board (here, at least), and were pretty much in line with what I initially reported, specifically:

 

* My AIM-120A/B AA missiles could rarely achieve kills (<15% hit rate) against the AI's F-15 SLAM Eagles, and almost never downed (<2% hit rate) the AI's F-16s (although they were reasonably effective against all other AI aircraft types, including the AI's Rafales). This was true regardless of how many missiles I fired in a given volley, even when exceeding 2x missles per unit of the target group. (Note: I noticed that my results were pretty much "all or nothing"; that is, my volleys would either miss entirely or else would kill all of the AI's group in the rare cases where kills occurred. This in itself seems abnormal, because usually there are times when some kills occur without wiping out the entire group - especially in these case where there are usuallt 3 or 4 planes in the AI group).

 

* Unless I used "turn and burn" tactics soon enough (that is, if I approached the target group too closely before loosing my missiles, or if I did not bug out after firing), then the AI's AIM-120's achieved greater than 95% kill rate against my F-15 PLUSes. (I generally did not even attempt to attack the AI's F-15 SLAMs or F-16s using my standard F-15s, or the F-2Xs, or the F-4EJs, because those types would typically get shot down before getting close enough to even fire thier own shorter-ranged missiles).

 

* The AI was able to detect, intercept, and engage any of my air groups regardless of my air groups' distance from AI detection platforms, and even if my groups were loitering or cruising at Low altitudes with all radars OFF. In addition, the intercepting AI air groups would immediately react to all course changes of my air groups, even though my groups were well beyond any AI radar range and were flying at thier minimum capable altitude with their own radars OFF.

 

* Meanwhile, the only way that I could detect the AI's air groups was if those AI groups were running active radar. As soon as they turned their radars off, contact would be lost (and could not be re-established) until the AI group turned its radars back on... even when the AI groups were right under the noses of my actively-radiating AEW groups, surface groups and several F-15 air groups!

 

* AI air groups who did not turn on their radars would regularly be able to sneak up undetected on my air groups and dispatch them with equally undetected missiles, regardless of my AEW/EW/radar coverage of the area.

 

* It was impossible for my air groups to sneak up on any AI air groups, regardless of approach tactics, including Low (or even VLow) altitude and/or high or low speed and radar silence - just as it was impossible to evade the AI interceptors, as mentioned above.

 

* The AI's AA missiles often (perhaps 50% of the time) would not be detected until they had flown perhaps 75% of their range, and about 30% of the time, they'd not be detected at all (other than by virtue of my planes blowing up).

 

* Pretty much 100% of the time that my Air Groups launched AA missiles (regardless of the number of missiles in the volley), the targeted AI air groups would immediately react to the launch by changing course away from my missiles, and usually launching their own missiles. (This leads me to assume they AI always detects my missiles immediately upon launch).

 

* In cases where the AI air group and my own air group launched their AIM-120A/Bs simultaneously, my missiles would regularly "expire" several seconds before the AI's missiles did. This is even more perplexing in conjunction with the fact that although the AI group would turn away, their reported speed remained at cruise, while I'd usually turn away my group and go to maximum after-burner - yet my group would sometimes get "caught" by the AI's missiles, while my missiles would always expire before reaching the AI's air group!

 

 

All this stuff seems to be not only "inequitable" between the behavior/capabilities of AI groups and the players groups, but also inexplicable in the context of realism and probabilities. And since these effects reportedly occur only in my case, it leaves me to conclude that either something isn't working properly with the probability calculations in this particular installation of the game, or in some of the cases, I'm somehow totally deficient in tactics (although tactical deficiency can't explain some of these behaviors).

 

The bottom line is that I'd really like to find out what's wrong here - or at least get it corrected - because it's not only impeding my ability to play, but it doesn't seem to permit any realistic employment or assessment of tactics or platform capabilities. Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

The bottom line is that I'd really like to find out what's wrong here - or at least get it corrected - because it's not only impeding my ability to play, but it doesn't seem to permit any realistic employment or assessment of tactics or platform capabilities. Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Might be related to this here: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?s...36&hl=pason

 

Far too wise AI units....

The bottom line is that I'd really like to find out what's wrong here - or at least get it corrected - because it's not only impeding my ability to play, but it doesn't seem to permit any realistic employment or assessment of tactics or platform capabilities. Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Might be related to this here: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?s...36&hl=pason

 

Far too wise AI units....

 

 

Could be... I've also observed the sub-related situations that you described a few times here and there - although it does seem to be more likely in sub-vs-sub scenarios for some reason.

 

In a general sense, the behavior of the Air Groups and AA missiles does seem to follow a similar pattern of relative detectability (AI compared to player's side). In the case of the air groups, the effect seems to be a function of the specific platforms involved (as also seemed to be the case in your reports of the sub activity), so perhaps there is some sort of database flag(s) that is contributing to the discrepancy - that is, some flag that is set only for certain platforms in the db, and for some reason the flag gets factored into the probabilities only for one side or the other, not both - either by intent or oversight? (Just thinking out loud and trying to match possible causes to the observed behavior). It also might be interesting to see whether there is some such facet that would be affected by the specific installation situation, and thus would explain why the behaviors seem to show up only in certain installations of the game.

In a general sense, the behavior of the Air Groups and AA missiles does seem to follow a similar pattern of relative detectability (AI compared to player's side). In the case of the air groups, the effect seems to be a function of the specific platforms involved (as also seemed to be the case in your reports of the sub activity), so perhaps there is some sort of database flag(s) that is contributing to the discrepancy - that is, some flag that is set only for certain platforms in the db, and for some reason the flag gets factored into the probabilities only for one side or the other, not both - either by intent or oversight? (Just thinking out loud and trying to match possible causes to the observed behavior). It also might be interesting to see whether there is some such facet that would be affected by the specific installation situation, and thus would explain why the behaviors seem to show up only in certain installations of the game.

 

It has nothing to do with DB flags, since they are the same regardless of whether the platform is controlled by the player or AI.

 

As we've said here many times before, JoeK, unless you can produce a savegame that confirms the behavior you describe, there's nothing that can be done.

In a general sense, the behavior of the Air Groups and AA missiles does seem to follow a similar pattern of relative detectability (AI compared to player's side). In the case of the air groups, the effect seems to be a function of the specific platforms involved (as also seemed to be the case in your reports of the sub activity), so perhaps there is some sort of database flag(s) that is contributing to the discrepancy - that is, some flag that is set only for certain platforms in the db, and for some reason the flag gets factored into the probabilities only for one side or the other, not both - either by intent or oversight? (Just thinking out loud and trying to match possible causes to the observed behavior). It also might be interesting to see whether there is some such facet that would be affected by the specific installation situation, and thus would explain why the behaviors seem to show up only in certain installations of the game.

 

It has nothing to do with DB flags, since they are the same regardless of whether the platform is controlled by the player or AI.

 

As we've said here many times before, JoeK, unless you can produce a savegame that confirms the behavior you describe, there's nothing that can be done.

 

Well, something causes differing detectability and behavior of these AIM-120A/B missiles when used by the Red or Blue side, and something causes clearly different detectability of similar platforms (F-15s) by the Red side as compared to the Blue side. (In this scenario, the player's side is always the Blue side, so I can't compare behavior by playing the Red side, meaning that I can only observe the differences from the Blue perspective).

 

My conjecture is not that DB flags might somehow differ for the platforms depending on whether the platform is operating as an AI or player's asset; instead, I was thinking that there might be some flag or flags that happens to be set (or cleared) only for the platforms which are problematic, and the probabability calculations that utilize such flags might differ in some way depending on whether it was being applied to the AI side or to the player's side, thus accounting for the differing probability of detection or of kills that I'm observing.

 

I have already submitted several saved games and notes, demonstrating these behaviors, earlier in this same thread. Those games consistently reproduce the captured symptoms when re-played here. After hearing the comments resulting from those submissions, I have re-played the same scenario "from scratch" several times, with pretty much identical behaviors showing up in each session (although perhaps with some minor variance in the probablities). I don't know what else to do beyond that, especially if it really is true that those saved games do not exhibit the same behaviors on anyone else's installation. Could a Registry problem account for this situation? Re-installation seems to have no effect, so I'm assuming that it isn't a file corruption issue.

Regarding "invincible" air groups:

 

I have seen something like this in a number of cases. That is to say, I have seen it frequently, but with limited numbers of planes involved.

 

But first off, If I recall correctly, it was with the original version of Harpoon, so perhaps it is not particularly relevant. My experience with modern Harpoon is not that extensive, but I don't believe I've seen such behaviour in that case.

 

It seems to be related to what Rainman posted.

 

Specifically, there have been situations where enemy aircraft (typically a pair) move into MY airspace, so I naturally send interceptors to cleanse MY airspace. I fire normal numbers of AA missiles (the medium-range radar-guided ones, Sparrow and/or Sky Flash). "Normal" means 4 per fighter or so. After firing several volleys, all missing, I start wondering what's going on. Having had a lifetime history of bad luck in wargames, I'm not too upset at this point. Maybe a bit annoyed.

 

If I recall correctly, I have noticed that the enemy planes are moving at VL. So I surmised that my missiles simply can't track at that altitude when they reach the target, and perhaps I shouldn't have fired.

 

So then I wait for these planes to fly into tall waves. It happens sometimes, but not often enough to satisfy me.

 

So then I close to Sidewinder range. Needs must. And the Sidewinders do the job.

 

As Rainman points out, this may be part of the explanation, but it is unlikely that it would provide enough explanation to cover all of Joe's experience.

I have already submitted several saved games and notes, demonstrating these behaviors, earlier in this same thread. Those games consistently reproduce the captured symptoms when re-played here. After hearing the comments resulting from those submissions, I have re-played the same scenario "from scratch" several times, with pretty much identical behaviors showing up in each session (although perhaps with some minor variance in the probablities). I don't know what else to do beyond that, especially if it really is true that those saved games do not exhibit the same behaviors on anyone else's installation.

 

That's my point. I don't know what else can be done for you either. I've looked at the savegames you did supply, and none of them demonstrated the 'invincible' aircraft you described. As stated earlier in this thread, I had an entirely different experience with your savegame.

 

Could a Registry problem account for this situation? Re-installation seems to have no effect, so I'm assuming that it isn't a file corruption issue.

 

I cannot imagine that registry issues or file corruption would result in dramatically enhanced AI. (I remind folks that the term 'AI' is used very loosely here, since no version of Harpoon has anything like a true AI).