Dear HarpGamers,

 

I enjoyed Dangerous Waters and Sub Command for PC during the last years but due to the global recession and energy crisis decided to try a board game again. Ten years ago I had pretty much fun with Battle Tech and Squad Leader but speaking of Harpoon 4.x I can't gather information about the basic game play mechanics. Since I have to import the game it would be nice if experienced gamer here in the forum could answer some questions listed below. I'm aware of that the one or another question was allready posted but there might be other opinions now so I will ask them again.

 

1. Imagine a person interested in the Harpoon Game system. Would you recommend the Harpoon 4.1-Box or the High-Tide Box + Quick Start rules to begin with?

 

2. If using one of the sets stated above, is there any need for more equipment to play a game? Of course I will need note book, calculator etc. but what about a board (hex or quadrants), special kind of rulers, etc..

 

3. Is it possible to enjoy the game if the players have no military (naval) background? I personaly have no problems with extensive reading regarding the games subject and I would prefer the referee role anyway.

 

4. Does the system allow focus on sub vs. sub scenarios?

 

5. Does the rule-book give too much room for interpretation or does it deliver well written rules comprehensible for non naval-experts?

 

6.. Optional: is it possible to describe the basic game play of harpoon 4.x without stealing anybodies time? As far as I know I have to buy the rules to understand the system anyway but couldn't find a synopsis on net either.

 

let me thank you all in advance

 

cibotx

Welcome cibotx,

 

1. Imagine a person interested in the Harpoon Game system. Would you recommend the Harpoon 4.1-Box or the High-Tide Box + Quick Start rules to begin with?

Most definitely the High-Tide Box + Quick Start rules to begin with. The materials in High-Tide are more up to date than the Harpoon 4.1 box and the Quick Start is priceless.

 

2. If using one of the sets stated above, is there any need for more equipment to play a game? Of course I will need note book, calculator etc. but what about a board (hex or quadrants), special kind of rulers, etc..

You don't need a hex map of any sort. There are cheats in the materials for scaling your movement so you really don't need a special ruler though you might end up making one over time. I find larger sheets of blank paper to be helpful as my playing surface but again they are not required.

 

3. Is it possible to enjoy the game if the players have no military (naval) background? I personaly have no problems with extensive reading regarding the games subject and I would prefer the referee role anyway.

Personally I don't think someone without naval background (or prior) interest will have the patience to play for very long. A less intense set of rules like Shipwreck, Harpoon: Captain's Edition, or Red Banner might be a better place to get them hooked on the whole naval genre.

 

4. Does the system allow focus on sub vs. sub scenarios?

Yes, the details for submarine operations are more than capable of focusing on sub vs. sub engagements.

 

5. Does the rule-book give too much room for interpretation or does it deliver well written rules comprehensible for non naval-experts?

My opinion is that the rules have some gaps, mainly due to them being so detailed it just isn't possible to account for every situation. There are times when I've wondered what the intent of a rule is and how to apply the rule. That said, I suppose I haven't seen a game where a new player doesn't have some of those issues.

 

imho the rules are well written and understandable for non naval-experts. The difficulty may be that a non-naval expert might not know which tactics to use (I have this active sonar to detect the enemy but I should probably never use it). That said, I think using incorrect tactics will quickly show you the weakness in your tactics as the opponents quickly destroy your forces.

 

6.. Optional: is it possible to describe the basic game play of harpoon 4.x without stealing anybodies time? As far as I know I have to buy the rules to understand the system anyway but couldn't find a synopsis on net either.

I don't have my rules at home here to run thru a turn but you'll probably get a feel from the AARs here at HarpGamer. You can also find a version of the QuickStart at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdmiraltyTrilogy/files/ (you'll probably have to join the group, then go into the files section and look for H4 Quickstart.pdf). The quickstart guide is 30 pages, it isn't a play in an hour sort of game...

 

 

Red Banner: http://web.archive.org/web/20050312115136/.../RedBanner.html

A funny Shipwreck vs Harpoon thread: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=23000

About Harpoon: Captain's Edition (e-Bay often has a copy or two, got mine there): http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/6503

Hi Cibotx,

 

I agree completely with what Tony has outlined. You can get away with pencil, paper, ruler, protractor, calculator, and two ten-sided dice. I have found graph paper very helpful. free online graph paper.

 

As the rules can be considered somewhat detailed, start small and progress from there. If you want to get right into larger scale naval engagements, I'd recommend Shipwreck, which can also be played with the aforementioned items. Shipwreck in UK or strangecargogames in the US. I did not post a link as I am not getting the site today. They have been around a while, I have ordered the shipwreck and tankwreck rules as well as a number of the 1/6000 ships and 1/1250 aircraft over the years. The owner has been bouncing between CA and the FL keys for work so they have been somewhat timely response-challenged for the past year or so, but I must say that I have never been dissatisfied with them. Or Red Banner as Tony pointed out.

 

Hope you enjoy whatever game you go with.

TonyE & pmaidhof, many thanks for the first replies and detailed answers. It cleared some important things up for me and I will definitely give the game a try. I will also check out shipwreck, it might be easier to attract some players. Any further comments are welcome of course

 

cheers

cibotx

Thanks for this. I've just ordered the High Tide box set.

 

or strangecargogames in the US. I did not post a link as I am not getting the site today.

Still not getting it at home, but that must be my problem. Strange Cargo Games is their link. I see that you are in Leipzig so should you go shipwreck, Vandering in the UK would be the most likely best route for you.

 

Pete

Thx Pete, the link is working perfectly on my side. Looks interesting as well. What is your take on the game system shipwreck regarding the need of Figurehead Ships (miniature), are they needed to play properly?

I think I give High Tide a try and keep a close eye on shipwreck in case I can't find enough players for harpoon or I end up eating the harpoon manual in order to figure out the rules somehow

 

 

cheers

cibotx

Thx Pete, the link is working perfectly on my side. Looks interesting as well. What is your take on the game system shipwreck regarding the need of Figurehead Ships (miniature), are they needed to play properly?

I think I give High Tide a try and keep a close eye on shipwreck in case I can't find enough players for harpoon or I end up eating the harpoon manual in order to figure out the rules somehow

 

You do not need the 1/6000 figurehead ships, nor any others to enjoy either Harpoon 4.1/High Tide or Shipwreck. No kidding, I've played shipwreck once with bottle caps on the floor of my house. Think of shipwreck as Harpoon, but extremely light. The systems and capabilities are very generalized. However it is this generalization that allows you to play a scenario in an evening and still get a reasonable/plausable, or at least Harpoon-like result. To be honest, I bounce between the two depending upon what I want from my game that day. There are times I want the detail harpoon gives me, other times there is "no time" so shipwreck it is. .

 

Although I have participated in a couple of pbem scenarios of harpoon with an umpire, I have solo'd many many more hours of Harpoon, often relying upon Brad, Tony, and others here, and on the Trilogy yahoo sites as sounding boards to ensure I'm at least somewhat complient with the rules.

 

Please let us know if we can assist in any other way.

 

Pete

I decided to use my "old" thread to clearify some more questions.

I've read the manual (4.1) by now and it really impressed me how much detail they put into paper rules. Now I just need to memorize it

 

Still, there are some basic questions. Some of them might sound a bit foolish so please keep in mind that my mother tongue is not english and some obvious facts can slip easily through my perception like a slick fish

 

1. Am I right that I basically can use the "Formation Plotting Board" (Harpoon Form 6) as a manouvering board or is it supposed to be used for some kind of formation feature not recognised by me?

 

2. I have a fairly good idea about a game-setup if a referee is involved. It is difficult though to come up with decend setup for game with 2P, without referee. Is there a good way to setup a game allowing a maximum of concealed movement/action? Standing Orders are a great help but I guess you have to place neutral markers on the board anyway to make detection roles etc. feasible. But in this case the opposite player would always be aware of enemy position/movement and the game play would change entirely. Any suggestions?

 

 

Alright, many thanks in advance for any help.

 

cibotx

I decided to use my "old" thread to clearify some more questions.

I've read the manual (4.1) by now and it really impressed me how much detail they put into paper rules. Now I just need to memorize it

 

Still, there are some basic questions. Some of them might sound a bit foolish so please keep in mind that my mother tongue is not english and some obvious facts can slip easily through my perception like a slick fish

 

Keine Sorgen cibotx, unsere Muttersprache ist nicht Deutsch!

 

1. Am I right that I basically can use the "Formation Plotting Board" (Harpoon Form 6) as a manouvering board or is it supposed to be used for some kind of formation feature not recognised by me?

 

I have never used Form 6, but can't see any reason why not. I have always used graph paper, sometimes transitioning to a wargaming table with mini's.

 

2. I have a fairly good idea about a game-setup if a referee is involved. It is difficult though to come up with decend setup for game with 2P, without referee. Is there a good way to setup a game allowing a maximum of concealed movement/action? Standing Orders are a great help but I guess you have to place neutral markers on the board anyway to make detection roles etc. feasible. But in this case the opposite player would always be aware of enemy position/movement and the game play would change entirely. Any suggestions?

 

I am guilty to have never played Harpoon face to face, in fact the majority of my harpoon gaming has been solo with a lot of help from the guys here and on some of the yahoo sites. I suppose with a trusting gaming opponent, without one why make the effort, I suppose that you could use neutral markers until detected. Detection would require some cooperation as far as target size, speed, etc.

 

Alright, many thanks in advance for any help.

 

No problem at all. I hope it helped somewhat.

 

Pete

Keine Sorgen cibotx, unsere Muttersprache ist nicht Deutsch!

 

As proof that your english is far superior to my german.

Thanks Pete!!!

 

Your German is not that bad btw

 

cibotx

I just bought "High Tide" and am still awaitng its arrival. I see they have also published three Harpoon Naval Reviews and

1) Sea of dragons, 2) South Atlantic War, 3) White ensign. What are these? Additional scenarios and or additions to the databases and rule changes. Would you recommend any of them for beginners? I was also wondering how large a piece of graph paper does one need to play a medium size scenario? I play computer Harpoon and the size covered in some of the scenarios is several hundred miles. I don't think my kitchen table is big enough to handle this large an area.

I have to say, that I would recommend the original Harpoon 4.1 box for beginners.

 

The High Tide scenario is way to complex for beginners (I just learned that by myself) and I can't imagine that one of the additions is meant to be used by beginners. Nonetheless I'm interested in "sea of dragons".

 

cibotx

I just bought "High Tide" and am still awaitng its arrival. I see they have also published three Harpoon Naval Reviews and

1) Sea of dragons, 2) South Atlantic War, 3) White ensign. What are these? Additional scenarios and or additions to the databases and rule changes. Would you recommend any of them for beginners? I was also wondering how large a piece of graph paper does one need to play a medium size scenario? I play computer Harpoon and the size covered in some of the scenarios is several hundred miles. I don't think my kitchen table is big enough to handle this large an area.

 

Hi Blue Duck.

 

The Harpoon Naval Reviews come out every couple of years with scenarios, articles, ship and aircraft data to play the specific scenarios, etc. The last one released was 2003, there is one in the pipeline for 2009.

 

Sea of Dragons is a very interesting, but in woeful need (in my opinion) of updating, book focussed on Harpoon4 in Asia. It catalogs all of the players (PRC, Japan, Taiwan, the Koreas, Philipines, Australia, Indonesia, etc), and their naval and airforces, and then puts together some scenarios...it comes with its own data annex.

 

South Atlantic War II uses Harpoon4 to game many individual situations which made up the 1982 Falklands campaign. It contains discussion, the scenarios, the data, and the Ground Combat System (GCS) rules, (along with some Falklands ground scenarios). GCS is needed for some of the amphibious scenarios found in High Tide.

 

White Ensign focusses exclusively on the Royal Navy, with the exception of the 1982 Falklands. Many interesting situations during the drawdowns from the Middle East and Asia, and even a 1970's version of the Falklands if I recall correctly.

 

I find that most of my Harpoon scenarios played are much smaller affairs that scenarios found in computer HCE or H3. There is so much platform interaction and calculations needed, that I have not been able to break the code and "do" a HCE scaled scenario. One caveat is that some scenarios I've done with H4., though small affairs, would not be particularly enjoyable in HCE due to the small size, not enough to do when the computer is crunching all of your numbers. The biggest sceanio that I was able to pull off solo was using Stratsims Combat Plotter and the 1987 Operation Praying Mantis scenario from a paper H3 booklet Dangerous Waters. There were about 30 platforms involved and a great time. There is an AAR to it here on Harpgamer in the H4 section.

 

Once you get your arms around the mechanics, I'd recommend whichever topic interests you. Note: White Ensign was recently updated. Sea of Dragons is, again in my opinion, woefully in need of a overhaul, though still interesting if you can get by that by updating the platforms should you be interested in such scenarios.

 

Graph paper size: all dependant upon the size of the squares, and scale that you assigned each square. I've used everything from 0.5nm (1,000 yards), 1nm, 5nm, 10km. Graph paper with 0.5cm boxes can give you a fairly large area provided the scale is set likewise. Like all tactics, dependent upon the situation. Doing it with (graph)paper and a pencil allows you to roll it up and put it away if family and/or little munchin fingers prevent you from leaving something like that out, all over the kitchen table...like me.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Pete