From ARES Blog

 

Submerged IDAS Missile Firing is Milestone for Undersea Warfare

Posted by Joris Janssen Lok at 5/30/2008 7:39 AM CDT

 

A German navy submarine has achieved a major milestone in undersea warfare by successfully test firing a fiber-optically-guided IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack system for Submarines) missile from a submerged position yesterday.

 

The test was performed by the U33, the third of Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems-built U 212 class of air-independent propulsion submarines, in the western part of the Baltic Sea May 29.

 

IDAS, developed by a consortium of Diehl Defence [the missile], TKMS (HDW) [submarine integration] and Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace [u 212 command & control system integration], showed a "convincing performance" during all phases of the flight, a statement from Diehl says.

 

"After updating the missile´s inertial system by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to break through the water surface a few seconds later, ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage," the statement says.

 

The IDAS missile is about the same size as the ubiquitous AIM-9L Sidewinder from Raytheon (built under license by Diehl BGT Defence) and Diehl's IRIS-T missile.

 

Differing from an operational scenario, the test was ended in a controlled glide flight. During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the fiber-optical wire.

 

According to Diehl, the test firing proves that IDAS can be employed from a submerged submarine. "All mechanical interfaces proved reliable while data transmission via optical wave guide functioned smoothly," the company says.

 

High-ranking Navy officers from several interested countries witnessed the event as observers on an accompanying vessel.

 

With the test firing from a submerged submarine, the IDAS consortium, in a joint effort with the German Navy as well as the German defense procurement agency BWB, passed a further milestone in this program – nine months earlier than foreseen in the contract, Diehl says.

 

The next steps in the IDAS project consist of "drawing up outstanding phase documents and initializing the international development program."

 

IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

 

The missile, launched from standard torpedo tubes, is also suited to perform a precision attack against a pinpoint position on a surface ship (such as the bridge or a helicopter on deck) or against a target ashore.

 

How should we rate this new capability and what will it mean to undersea and anti-submarine warfare in general and to the operation of active dipping sonar helicopters in particular?

Oh, that's scary. I think we should get the work unpublished, all records erased, and pretend it didn't happen

 

The manpad from the sail idea meant the sub was usually going to be dead anyway but if it is firing submerged that's a whole new ball game imho.

 

The P-8 dropping torps from high altitude via parachute may not seem so silly after all. Then you post this story the same day as a AMRAAM with GPS updates story, I don't even want to think about a sub launching a longer ranged SAM with GPS and OTH targeting

The missile, launched from standard torpedo tubes, is also suited to perform a precision attack against a pinpoint position on a surface ship (such as the bridge or a helicopter on deck) or against a target ashore.

 

There will come a Singletube VLS with a revolving reload mechanism at a later stange...

 

Saving space in the torpedotube..

 

I think my source is reliable.... but i can name it here...

 

So will we be able to simulate this in HCE?

Pics from the launch here.

Although the concept is, as Brains said on IRC, "nifty", I wonder about its real combat utility.

 

The objective of any submarine, after all, is to stay hidden from any ASW threat, especially airborne threats.

 

Is it a useful self-defense weapon?

 

Shooting a SAM at an aircraft from a submerged sub certainly advertises your position, and there's a lot riding on the success of that missile. If it misses, you're in a heap of trouble.

 

And what if it does hit? Helicopters performing ASW rarely do so alone, and while it is probably more usual for a fixed wing maritime patrol aircraft to do so, its disappearance is no doubt going to draw attention.

 

Is it a last ditch weapon?

 

I dunno, seems to me that as a sub driver, you'd be more concerned about staying alive, dodging actively pinging sonobuoys and/or dipping sonars, launching countermeasures, ducking and weaving, rather than coming to periscope depth to take a chance at shooting a SAM.

 

So is it a revenge weapon?

Although the concept is, as Brains said on IRC, "nifty", I wonder about its real combat utility.

 

The objective of any submarine, after all, is to stay hidden from any ASW threat, especially airborne threats.

 

I could see a certain amount of value as a deterrent; simply knowing that the threat exists would force a certain amount of discretion upon the hunters.

 

Is it a useful self-defense weapon?

 

Shooting a SAM at an aircraft from a submerged sub certainly advertises your position, and there's a lot riding on the success of that missile. If it misses, you're in a heap of trouble.

 

And what if it does hit? Helicopters performing ASW rarely do so alone, and while it is probably more usual for a fixed wing maritime patrol aircraft to do so, its disappearance is no doubt going to draw attention.

 

Well, I don't have any real life experience in the area, but certainly there have been times in playing the game where I have known that a sub is doomed for a good half hour of game time before the fatal torp hit me. Having a sub-launched SAM might well have saved a couple of those boats for me, and it isn't as if there would have been anything to lose by trying. Killing a lone MPA probably gives you enough time to clear the area, and while it will certainly be noticed, so what? If it was worth killing in the first place, doesn't that mean they already knew you were in the area? Killing one helo is of less benefit, to be sure, but everything I've read says that two helos are MUCH harder to evade than one, so maybe there would be times where it was worth doing ... ?

 

Is it a last ditch weapon?

 

I dunno, seems to me that as a sub driver, you'd be more concerned about staying alive, dodging actively pinging sonobuoys and/or dipping sonars, launching countermeasures, ducking and weaving, rather than coming to periscope depth to take a chance at shooting a SAM.

 

So is it a revenge weapon?

 

Hmmm ... are you looking at the situation with a nuclear bias? SSNs have the mobility to play that game well, SSKs not so much, especially the ones that don't have AIP. I'm by no means convinced that you are wrong, but at the same time, I can't help but think that whoever is paying for this program must have done enough simming to think that it was worth trying. It will be interesting to see how this one progresses

Having been thinking of only as a last resort, Warhorse brings up a very valid point of the situation a diesel boat can and most likely will find themselves in. What is their alternative to virtually certain destruction? I say arm them.

I could see a certain amount of value as a deterrent; simply knowing that the threat exists would force a certain amount of discretion upon the hunters.

 

I dunno. Helos still have to hunt submarines more or less the same way they always did, and until the FishHawk HAAWC and similar standoff systems come online, so will the MPAs.

 

I dunno, seems to me that as a sub driver, you'd be more concerned about staying alive, dodging actively pinging sonobuoys and/or dipping sonars, launching countermeasures, ducking and weaving, rather than coming to periscope depth to take a chance at shooting a SAM.

 

Hmmm ... are you looking at the situation with a nuclear bias? SSNs have the mobility to play that game well, SSKs not so much, especially the ones that don't have AIP.

 

Actually, not at all. In fact, I think if the sub SAM system has any real utility, its with the SSKs. They have to perform the same evasion as SSNs, only not as fast or deep. The very fact that SSNs can go fast and deep suggests to me that they need sub SAMs the least of any submarines.

 

I'm by no means convinced that you are wrong, but at the same time, I can't help but think that whoever is paying for this program must have done enough simming to think that it was worth trying. It will be interesting to see how this one progresses

 

Hehe, it certainly looks like they're getting some funding from the German government, but we are otherwise talking about arms manufacturers (a German/Norwegian consortium). They don't need an excuse to build a weapon system that nobody really needs. As suggested by some of the bloggers at ARES, the foundation for the IDAS program was probably laid in large part by Polyphem and related programs.

I've only ever seen a sub do that in an episode of Airwolf... (they also used Polaris stock footage...)

I've only ever seen a sub do that in an episode of Airwolf... (they also used Polaris stock footage...)

 

Now *that* would be a SAM!