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Libya no-fly zone

Featured Replies

Hi,

a technical question to more expert forum members than me, about the possibility of a Libyan no-fly zone.

Is it possible for a AWACS plane to be aware of and to track even very low flying little planes, or helicopters?

If not, I suppose Gheddafi could continue to target rebels taking off from airstrips or cities and NATO/UE forces would be impotent.

 

Any opinion?

 

Francesco

Hi, a technical question to more expert forum members than me, about the possibility of a Libyan no-fly zone. Is it possible for a AWACS plane to be aware of and to track even very low flying little planes, or helicopters? If not, I suppose Gheddafi could continue to target rebels taking off from airstrips or cities and NATO/UE forces would be impotent. Any opinion?

Francesco

 

Yes, AWACS can detect and track small, low flying aircraft and helicopters, but they are among the toughest targets and there are a lot of variables at play (e.g. clutter, weather, terrain, etc, etc). The RSIP upgrade has tried to improve this capability (among other things).

Hi, a technical question to more expert forum members than me, about the possibility of a Libyan no-fly zone. Is it possible for a AWACS plane to be aware of and to track even very low flying little planes, or helicopters? If not, I suppose Gheddafi could continue to target rebels taking off from airstrips or cities and NATO/UE forces would be impotent. Any opinion?

Francesco

 

Yes, AWACS can detect and track small, low flying aircraft and helicopters, but they are among the toughest targets and there are a lot of variables at play (e.g. clutter, weather, terrain, etc, etc). The RSIP upgrade has tried to improve this capability (among other things).

 

And just to make it even more fun, a helo doing 50 knots over a road, at NOE, looks remarkably like a truck on radar. Guess that's why we have FLIR ... :P

And just to make it even more fun, a helo doing 50 knots over a road, at NOE, looks remarkably like a truck on radar. Guess that's why we have FLIR ... :P

 

Absolutely. Slow moving and hovering helicopters are notoriously difficult radar targets. (The bane of the ill fated Sgt York DIVADS comes to mind).

I remember in the 1980s reports about US and NATO AWACS and LDSD radars detuned to avoid false contacts in the German autobahns, perhaps when they were running faster than 200 Km/h

Forget the E-3 as the platform doing the real number crunching here. The E-8C JSTARS is the platform of choice for that kind of work. The Integrated Data Management system allows the AH-64 and OH-58 teams to deal with this type of tactic. Netcentric warfare.

  • Author
And just to make it even more fun, a helo doing 50 knots over a road, at NOE, looks remarkably like a truck on radar. Guess that's why we have FLIR ... :P

 

Absolutely. Slow moving and hovering helicopters are notoriously difficult radar targets. (The bane of the ill fated Sgt York DIVADS comes to mind).

 

That's what I was thinking - it seems to me that it would be almost impossible to counteract slow and low flying helos, especially those taking off close to the target and flying just a few minutes.

 

If ever this option would be undertaken.

 

Francesco

And just to make it even more fun, a helo doing 50 knots over a road, at NOE, looks remarkably like a truck on radar. Guess that's why we have FLIR ... :P

 

Absolutely. Slow moving and hovering helicopters are notoriously difficult radar targets. (The bane of the ill fated Sgt York DIVADS comes to mind).

 

That's what I was thinking - it seems to me that it would be almost impossible to counteract slow and low flying helos, especially those taking off close to the target and flying just a few minutes.

 

If ever this option would be undertaken.

 

Francesco

 

It shouldn't really be that bad. Flying low and slow doesn't make them invisible, it just makes it hard to decide that they are aircraft in the first place. Once they reveal themselves by making a strike, they may still be able to RTB before you can shoot them down, but there's nothing to stop you from bombing them on the ground afterwards. So they may get a strike or two in, but it's a losing game for them in the end, regardless.

There is significant interest in Europe for the creation of a No Fly Zone. When I last checked trends a few months ago, it reported that France gets about 10% of it's oil from Libya, Italy about 20 to 25%. It's also important to note that while aircraft can fly from Sicily, France currently has the only carrier operating in the region at the moment. Vinson is in the Arabian Gulf while Enterprise is in the Red Sea [although I'd guess that Egypt is letting them do their thing atm]. So there's more economic justification from a European standpoint for the creation of a zone. I read a news report today that said the UK would support strikes against Libya should Gadaffi use chemical weapons but from what I've been able to glean thus far he may not need to with rebel forces on the run like they are.

 

Later

D

From Aviation Week's Ares blog

 

[excerpt]

 

F-22s Readied for Libya -- Just In Case

Posted by David A. Fulghum at 3/11/2011 2:24 PM CST

 

The F-22s of the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley AFB, Va., are receiving the latest stealth, avionics and engine upgrades, according to veteran fighter pilots who live nearby.

From the DEW Line blog

 

[excerpt]

 

What about an Arab-led no-fly-zone over Libya?

By Stephen Trimble

on March 11, 2011 7:53 PM

 

While the US and European Union hem and haw over launching a no-fly zone over Libya, the Dubai-based Institute for Near East & Gulf Military Analysis (INEGMA) has proposed a possibly useful alternate solution: let the Arabs do it.

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