February 16, 201016 yr Ive had alot of trouble detecting sams, and if i cant detect them i cant use SEAD strikes on them. Also i rarely see a plane avoid a missile, is there some tactics for using some ECM equipment? Or maybe the sams are inside bases or something?
February 16, 201016 yr Ive had alot of trouble detecting sams, and if i cant detect them i cant use SEAD strikes on them. Also i rarely see a plane avoid a missile, is there some tactics for using some ECM equipment? Or maybe the sams are inside bases or something? SAMs could be just about anywhere. They might be 'attached' or associated with an installation, like an airbase or port; or they might be entirely separate and operating mobile and alone; or they might be part of a formation of other units (such as other SAM launchers or armored vehicles). If they aren't actively emitting (that is, their radar is working), then it will be quite difficult to detect and locate them. You will need a very good surface search radar or infrared (IR) sensor, or rely on visual detection. (The latter can be quite a dangerous method of detection, however). Moreover, even if they are emitting, you will need some means of detecting those emissions. Typically this means an aircraft with ESM capability. Many modern aircraft have this, but without knowing what scenarios you are playing or what platforms you have at your disposal, I cannot tell for sure. ESM will give you a bearing to the enemy radar, and with time and the help of other tools (i.e. other ESM capable units and/or surface search radars), you should be able to find and fix the locations of the enemy SAM sites. Some SAMs do not use radar. Many manportable air defense missiles (MANPADS), for example, are IR guided and won't need a radar to detect you or attack you. Fortunately, these are usually quite short ranged, and you will need to nearly stumble upon them to come within their engagement envelope. As for hit probabilities (pH), many modern SAMs are quite deadly (in H4 terms), with pH exceeding 60%. Your aircraft's defensive ECM (if it has any capability in that regard), will typically only reduce the pH by 5-15%. Offensive ECM (like standoff jamming) will only degrade the SAM system's radar performance.
February 16, 201016 yr Ive had alot of trouble detecting sams, and if i cant detect them i cant use SEAD strikes on them. Also i rarely see a plane avoid a missile, is there some tactics for using some ECM equipment? Or maybe the sams are inside bases or something? The only aircraft that I've run across that seems to have much luck detecting/fixing air defense units is the RA-5C. (This is not counting the suicidal method of flying right over them and "seeing" them only as the pilot takes his last breath). Even AWACs aircraft types are lucky if they even detect the units and seldom seem to be able to "fix" them - even when using triangulation. (This is assuming the air defense units are not emitting). One technique that seems to help a little in some cases is for the less-capable invading aircraft to go in at high altitude. For some reason, this seems to allow them to detect the air defense units sooner, and sometimes even allows a "fix". As far as evading the SAMs, the only thing I know of is the "turn and burn" tactic - usable only by fast aircraft types who haven't ventured far into the missiles' range. Otherwise, the SAMs have pretty much 100% hit rate. The only other available tactics the the player can control (that is, manipulating the altitude, speed, course, or emissions of the invading aircraft) are largely irrelevent - that is, they don't help. SEAD weapons can be used, but are ineffective without a "fix" - which is a Catch-22 because in order to get a fix, the invaders generally have to get close enough to use iron bombs anyway, so the SEAD loads don't help matters all that much. Bottom line is that the air defense units on the computer side should be viewed as "meat grinders"... conversely, the AD units on the players side generally do not engage the computer side's aircraft - an aspect that has always thoroughly frustrated me.
February 16, 201016 yr The only aircraft that I've run across that seems to have much luck detecting/fixing air defense units is the RA-5C. (This is not counting the suicidal method of flying right over them and "seeing" them only as the pilot takes his last breath). Even AWACs aircraft types are lucky if they even detect the units and seldom seem to be able to "fix" them - even when using triangulation. (This is assuming the air defense units are not emitting). One technique that seems to help a little in some cases is for the less-capable invading aircraft to go in at high altitude. For some reason, this seems to allow them to detect the air defense units sooner, and sometimes even allows a "fix". As far as evading the SAMs, the only thing I know of is the "turn and burn" tactic - usable only by fast aircraft types who haven't ventured far into the missiles' range. Otherwise, the SAMs have pretty much 100% hit rate. The only other available tactics the the player can control (that is, manipulating the altitude, speed, course, or emissions of the invading aircraft) are largely irrelevent - that is, they don't help. SEAD weapons can be used, but are ineffective without a "fix" - which is a Catch-22 because in order to get a fix, the invaders generally have to get close enough to use iron bombs anyway, so the SEAD loads don't help matters all that much. Bottom line is that the air defense units on the computer side should be viewed as "meat grinders"... conversely, the AD units on the players side generally do not engage the computer side's aircraft - an aspect that has always thoroughly frustrated me. To deadmeat1471 and others: JoeK has had (and apparently continues to have) a number of issues that we have been unable to decipher, replicate, work through, or otherwise solve to his satisfaction or ours, despite our best efforts. His experiences do not generally appear to be shared by anyone else, which makes it all the more difficult to figure out exactly what is going on in his game. To JoeK: I'm going to ask you to step clear of this thread while we attempt to help out deadmeat1471. Your issues are well known, albeit not well understood.
February 16, 201016 yr Author (This is not counting the suicidal method of flying right over them and "seeing" them only as the pilot takes his last breath) Too often have i resorted to this method Thanks for the detailed answers, I will have to try these new ideas out and see if i can bag me some SAM's Also i wasn't referring to any particular scenario, rather my general incompetence when it comes to SAM dodging/killing While im here, does anyone have any useful sources on modern fleet compositions? specifically which class and type of ships in carrier groups, ive had a little look but i feel the information is embedded inside a more comprehensive document somewhere. Specifically im interested in the British ones, as i am British myself and patriotism is required. Thanks for your time people
February 16, 201016 yr Thanks for the detailed answers, I will have to try these new ideas out and see if i can bag me some SAM's Take note, as well, that you need precise locations on enemy SAMs to hit them with anti-radar missiles. This is a shortcoming of the current SEAD model (because you should be able to shoot on bearing only in most cases), something that we may be able to eventually remedy. While im here, does anyone have any useful sources on modern fleet compositions? specifically which class and type of ships in carrier groups, ive had a little look but i feel the information is embedded inside a more comprehensive document somewhere. Specifically im interested in the British ones, as i am British myself and patriotism is required. Thanks for your time people Although not an example of a purely British Royal Navy deployment, the carrier HMS Illustrious deployed for Operation Orion 08 (back in January 2008) with the following British ships: Type 42 destroyer HMS Edinburgh Type 23 frigate HMS Westminster Trafalgar attack submarine HMS Trafalgar Royal Fleet Auxiliaries Wave Knight, Fort Austin, Diligence, and Bayleaf Hunt MCMVs HMS Chiddingfold and Atherstone They were joined by the following ships to form a multinational group: US Navy Arleigh Burke destroyer USS Cole Spanish Navy F100 destroyer SNS Mendez Nunez French Navy Cassard destroyer FS Jean Bart
February 16, 201016 yr Author Thanks for the detailed answers, I will have to try these new ideas out and see if i can bag me some SAM's Take note, as well, that you need precise locations on enemy SAMs to hit them with anti-radar missiles. This is a shortcoming of the current SEAD model (because you should be able to shoot on bearing only in most cases), something that we may be able to eventually remedy. While im here, does anyone have any useful sources on modern fleet compositions? specifically which class and type of ships in carrier groups, ive had a little look but i feel the information is embedded inside a more comprehensive document somewhere. Specifically im interested in the British ones, as i am British myself and patriotism is required. Thanks for your time people Although not an example of a purely British Royal Navy deployment, the carrier HMS Illustrious deployed for Operation Orion 08 (back in January 2008) with the following British ships: Type 42 destroyer HMS Edinburgh Type 23 frigate HMS Westminster Trafalgar attack submarine HMS Trafalgar Royal Fleet Auxiliaries Wave Knight, Fort Austin, Diligence, and Bayleaf Hunt MCMVs HMS Chiddingfold and Atherstone They were joined by the following ships to form a multinational group: US Navy Arleigh Burke destroyer USS Cole Spanish Navy F100 destroyer SNS Mendez Nunez French Navy Cassard destroyer FS Jean Bart Perfect! thanks.
February 16, 201016 yr From my notes, I suppose have read it in an Air Forces Monthly issue (2009), the Naval Strike Wing for HMS Ark Royal in strike mission is: 16 x Harrier GR7/9 4 x Sea King ASaC7 2 x EH-101
February 17, 201016 yr Ive had alot of trouble detecting sams, and if i cant detect them i cant use SEAD strikes on them. Also i rarely see a plane avoid a missile, is there some tactics for using some ECM equipment? Or maybe the sams are inside bases or something? Getting back to the original question, I like hunting SAMs 'cause it challenging. As CV32 said, most modern combat aircraft will detect certain SAM presence, if you know what it is (even without an exact fix, you can work out a strategy that suits your current units. 4-8 mile range precion bombs with IR detectors (maybe F/A-18s) work well against short range manpads that might not be radiating and therefore not targetable with ARM units - some sead loadouts have both precision bomvbs and ARM weapons and I guess for this reason. Longer range SAM batteries need ARM (IMHO) and often prlenty of them, still the closer you're game to come the less missiles you need. I sometimes find coming in very low (especially if I have IR sensors), as soon as I get a fix on one unit (note the unit in the unit window) let fly with ARM, and if in range precision bombs that can't be defended against), turn and burn out of range before coming back again, one bite at a time. Don't waste ammo unless you have an exact fix (the unit shows up red with its unit number in the unit window) If you want use the 'minus' key to bring time compression right back to '0' (effective pause) while you nut it out. Long range SAMS amongst other enemy sensors are a real pain, I still try the stealth method (my aircraft willing) and hope to dodge around enemy sensing units before they 'see' me coming. Perhaps try try sending in decoy payload planes (very low and stealth cruise) with sead payouts coming back behind and high with ECW 'protection' for good locating of the SAMS, or for very long range SAMS leave your good sensors at the fringe of their range up high and loitering (watch for their fighters intercepting so leave a fighter CAP too) As for defeating a SAM, it helps to be religous 'cause then you can pray. If I know I'm still well within the range of the SAM and it's very close I'll go very low till either the SAM disappears or I get clobbered - I don't know if this is best but as CV32 says they have a high probability of hit so just running whenits right up your claker don't work. Any way keep trying differnet stuff, and think about what results you get. Lots of fun!!! Don Thomas
February 17, 201016 yr Getting back to the original question, I like hunting SAMs 'cause it challenging. Absolutely. Hunting SAMs is not easy. The HCE model is simplified, of course. For example, you don't have mobile SAM systems hiding in the 'weeds' (basically impervious to all but the keenest EO/IR eyes) and keeping their radars off until an enemy aircraft strays within lethal range, and then shutting down as soon as the engagement is over to avoid getting nailed by anti-radar missiles. But HCE does a decent job, imho, of modeling just how difficult it can be to find, fix and hit enemy SAMs without getting hit yourself.
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