Every month or so, I run into a situation where an AI air group is impervious to any manner of attack, and proceeds to walk right through my formation(s), wrecking havoc on everything in sight! This happens quite rarely, yet I've encountered it a number of times.

 

Typically, the "super group" will appear to be a normal AI group, say a pair of Flankers. Other pairs of Flankers will have attacked (or approached) my formation(s), and have engaged in dogfights or intercepts in a typical manner, being downed or fended off with the occasional loss inflicted on my defenders. But the one "invincible" group will run in, and will absorb everything that I can throw at it - including group after group of interceptors - and it will fly right through my AAW missiles and/or SAMs, fly directly over AAA platforms without flinching, and so forth. Meanwhile, it is shooting down every one of my aircraft that's along its path!

 

The odd thing is that I can throw all types of AA missiles (Phoenix, AMRAAMs, Sparrows, Sidewinders) at it, but volley after volley will simply "disappear" near the target, with no effect. Similarly, AAW and SAMs will simply "disappear" near the target, with no effect. Even realizing that AA missiles are way less than 100% effective, this just doesn't make sense - especially in comparison with the effects on other comparable AI air groups.

 

So, I'm wondering if this is some sort of quirk - or if the occasional invincible AI air group is a "feature". I mean, they're totally impossible to defend against, so it just seems really bizarre.

 

It also raises the question that I've always wondered about: It seems like if the AI's air groups have been relatively successful compared to my own air groups during the game, that they become even "tougher" later on; and conversely, if my air groups acheive even a slight dominence early, then subsequent AI air groups seem to be "weaker" or more susceptible to succumbing to my intercepts. This has led me to speculate that there is some sort of "morale factor" or "pilot experience factor" built in, that "weights" the probability of subsequent effectiveness. If so, that's kind of kool! On the other hand, I'm also wondering if the mechanism gets out of whack every so often, thus accounting for the "invicible" air group? Any thoughts?

Every month or so, I run into a situation where an AI air group is impervious to any manner of attack, and proceeds to walk right through my formation(s), wrecking havoc on everything in sight! This happens quite rarely, yet I've encountered it a number of times. Typically, the "super group" will appear to be a normal AI group, say a pair of Flankers. Other pairs of Flankers will have attacked (or approached) my formation(s), and have engaged in dogfights or intercepts in a typical manner, being downed or fended off with the occasional loss inflicted on my defenders. But the one "invincible" group will run in, and will absorb everything that I can throw at it - including group after group of interceptors - and it will fly right through my AAW missiles and/or SAMs, fly directly over AAA platforms without flinching, and so forth. Meanwhile, it is shooting down every one of my aircraft that's along its path! The odd thing is that I can throw all types of AA missiles (Phoenix, AMRAAMs, Sparrows, Sidewinders) at it, but volley after volley will simply "disappear" near the target, with no effect. Similarly, AAW and SAMs will simply "disappear" near the target, with no effect. Even realizing that AA missiles are way less than 100% effective, this just doesn't make sense - especially in comparison with the effects on other comparable AI air groups. So, I'm wondering if this is some sort of quirk - or if the occasional invincible AI air group is a "feature". I mean, they're totally impossible to defend against, so it just seems really bizarre. It also raises the question that I've always wondered about: It seems like if the AI's air groups have been relatively successful compared to my own air groups during the game, that they become even "tougher" later on; and conversely, if my air groups acheive even a slight dominence early, then subsequent AI air groups seem to be "weaker" or more susceptible to succumbing to my intercepts. This has led me to speculate that there is some sort of "morale factor" or "pilot experience factor" built in, that "weights" the probability of subsequent effectiveness. If so, that's kind of kool! On the other hand, I'm also wondering if the mechanism gets out of whack every so often, thus accounting for the "invicible" air group? Any thoughts?

 

I have never encountered such a beast ... ever.

OK, I just finished a replay of the Middleweights scenario in the WestPac battleset, under the 2009.042 version, and although it wasn't exactly the same situation of a single "invincible" AI air group, there was a rather bizarre - and consistent (and annoying) - situation where many of the AI's air groups were impervious to air-to-air attack by any of my air groups. Specifically, the AI was using four primary fighter types, the Golden Eagles, F-15K Slam Eagles, F-16 Block 52s, and Rafale C4s. Although the latter three of these types were all very difficult to engage successfully, even when using the F-15J Plus, the F-16 Block 52's were almost totally impervious to my AA missiles. Although both sides were armed with the same AIM-120A/B missiles, the kill rate of the AI's missiles were near 100%, while the the kill rate of my missiles against the F-16s was only approximately 7% (six planes hit out of shots at 93 F-16s), and actually less because I was firing more missiles than there were targets in each volley... so my hit rate was really more like maybe only 3-4%!! This was really annoying - not to mention catastrophic!

 

My hit rates on the F-15K Slam Eagles also were rather frustrating, yet at least better at a 40-50% hit rate (still consistently below the specified hit rate for the AIM-120A/B), while hit rates on other AI a/c types - even on the Rafales - were more in line with the specified hit rate percentages of the missiles.

 

So, although it was not really the same as the "invincible air group" scenario, the AI's F-16s here were almost indestructable, and even the AI's F-15Ks were suspiciously tough to kill. Meanwhile, literally the only way for my own planes to avoid being missile fodder was when the "turn and burn" tactic actually worked - because when the AI missiles were able to catch my planes, the kill rate was 100%. Is there any "explanation" for this seemingly lop-sided behavior?

 

Another thing that was rather annoying - because it also didn't seem to make sense - was that the AI groups were always able to immediately detect my AA missile launches (as evidenced by the AI groups immediately returning fire, and reversing their courses). By itself, this may not seem sigificant, but placed in the context where the AI groups quite often could launch their AA missiles totally unseen (even by my nearby AWACS and/or the target group's own radar), and often hit my groups without the AI missiles ever being detected, just seems to be totally inconsistent with the AI's ability to consistently detect and react to my AA missiles at maximum range. Is there any "explanation" for this seemingly lop-sided behavior?

 

And the "last straw" to the AI's "unfair advantage" was that the AI groups could out-run my missiles simply by turning (without "burning"), for example, quite frequently, a pair of my F-15J Pluses would engage an AI group of three or four F-16 Block 52s; I would allow the attack to proceed "automatically" to the point that the GE presented my missile allocation popup (usually at about 75-80% of the range of my AIM-120s). Immediately upon my firing my missiles, the AI group would launch its own AIM-120s, and reverse its course... but it would maintain its 533 knot cruising speed. Meanwhile, I'd manually reverse the course of my F-15J Plus group, and then set it to full afterburners (1338 knots). Yet, while my 1338 knot group could barely out-run the AI missiles (well, most of the time, anyway ), the AI groups could always out-run my missiles at only their 533 knot cruise speed... and even if the speed display of the AI group was incorrect for some reason, and the F-16s were actually flying at their maximum speed (of about 200 knots slower than the F-15s), they shouldn't have been able to consistently out-run my AIM-120's... should they??

 

So, I've come away from this scenario puzzled, frustrated, and annoyed... Is there any good explanation(s) to soothe my sense of unfairness about this?

OK, I just finished a replay of the Middleweights scenario in the WestPac battleset, under the 2009.042 version, and although it wasn't exactly the same situation of a single "invincible" AI air group, there was a rather bizarre - and consistent (and annoying) - situation where many of the AI's air groups were impervious to air-to-air attack by any of my air groups. Specifically, the AI was using four primary fighter types, the Golden Eagles, F-15K Slam Eagles, F-16 Block 52s, and Rafale C4s. Although the latter three of these types were all very difficult to engage successfully, even when using the F-15J Plus, the F-16 Block 52's were almost totally impervious to my AA missiles. Although both sides were armed with the same AIM-120A/B missiles, the kill rate of the AI's missiles were near 100%, while the the kill rate of my missiles against the F-16s was only approximately 7% (six planes hit out of shots at 93 F-16s), and actually less because I was firing more missiles than there were targets in each volley... so my hit rate was really more like maybe only 3-4%!! This was really annoying - not to mention catastrophic! My hit rates on the F-15K Slam Eagles also were rather frustrating, yet at least better at a 40-50% hit rate (still consistently below the specified hit rate for the AIM-120A/B), while hit rates on other AI a/c types - even on the Rafales - were more in line with the specified hit rate percentages of the missiles. So, although it was not really the same as the "invincible air group" scenario, the AI's F-16s here were almost indestructable, and even the AI's F-15Ks were suspiciously tough to kill. Meanwhile, literally the only way for my own planes to avoid being missile fodder was when the "turn and burn" tactic actually worked - because when the AI missiles were able to catch my planes, the kill rate was 100%. Is there any "explanation" for this seemingly lop-sided behavior? Another thing that was rather annoying - because it also didn't seem to make sense - was that the AI groups were always able to immediately detect my AA missile launches (as evidenced by the AI groups immediately returning fire, and reversing their courses). By itself, this may not seem sigificant, but placed in the context where the AI groups quite often could launch their AA missiles totally unseen (even by my nearby AWACS and/or the target group's own radar), and often hit my groups without the AI missiles ever being detected, just seems to be totally inconsistent with the AI's ability to consistently detect and react to my AA missiles at maximum range. Is there any "explanation" for this seemingly lop-sided behavior? And the "last straw" to the AI's "unfair advantage" was that the AI groups could out-run my missiles simply by turning (without "burning"), for example, quite frequently, a pair of my F-15J Pluses would engage an AI group of three or four F-16 Block 52s; I would allow the attack to proceed "automatically" to the point that the GE presented my missile allocation popup (usually at about 75-80% of the range of my AIM-120s). Immediately upon my firing my missiles, the AI group would launch its own AIM-120s, and reverse its course... but it would maintain its 533 knot cruising speed. Meanwhile, I'd manually reverse the course of my F-15J Plus group, and then set it to full afterburners (1338 knots). Yet, while my 1338 knot group could barely out-run the AI missiles (well, most of the time, anyway ), the AI groups could always out-run my missiles at only their 533 knot cruise speed... and even if the speed display of the AI group was incorrect for some reason, and the F-16s were actually flying at their maximum speed (of about 200 knots slower than the F-15s), they shouldn't have been able to consistently out-run my AIM-120's... should they?? So, I've come away from this scenario puzzled, frustrated, and annoyed... Is there any good explanation(s) to soothe my sense of unfairness about this?

 

Having never experienced anything like this, I'm afraid I cannot help.

 

I've been outnumbered, outranged, and outclassed by enemy aircraft in HCE, but I have never seen an 'invincible' or even a 'near invincible' enemy AI air group.

The closest thing I've come to this is trying to intercept Mig-25 Recon flying at the highest altitude band. Sometimes you just can't hit the damn things.

The closest thing I've come to this is trying to intercept Mig-25 Recon flying at the highest altitude band. Sometimes you just can't hit the damn things.

 

Check the engagement envelope of your AAM in the PE. Many older missiles will not engage at Vhi, and/or Vlo. The game WILL let you shoot it, however. Sparrow III is agood example od this.

Having never experienced anything like this, I'm afraid I cannot help.

 

Maybe it would be helpful if we could determine why your installation does not experience these behaviors, yet mine does - and fairly regularly.

 

FWIW, I should add that in an earlier game of the Middleweights scenario, I did not notice this sort of behavior - although it may have been because the AI declared its victory conditions after only about three or four game-hours into the game (and that's another puzzle, because I can't figure what victory criteria the AI achieved in that game - as it didn't appear that the AI had accomplished much of anything in that period of time ). Anyway, there does seem to be some variability in the likelihood of these sorts of odd behaviors from game to game - even under the same scenario - so I am wondering whether there is some "randomizing" issue going on, or if some occurances early in a game somehow "set the tone" for the rest of that game... although I have no idea what this might be, except as I've mentioned elsewhere, I have noticed that early air-to-air successes (or failures) by the AI do seem to "carry through" the rest of the game, in the tendency for continued successes (or failures) of the AI groups in AA combat. In other words, in a given game, the AI's air groups may be "tougher" (i.e. - more effectual) than in another game - even if it's the same scenario in each case. Maybe this is intentional?

Maybe it would be helpful if we could determine why your installation does not experience these behaviors, yet mine does - and fairly regularly.

 

Why don't you just provide a savegame of a scenario in progress where you are being walloped by invincible air groups?

Maybe it would be helpful if we could determine why your installation does not experience these behaviors, yet mine does - and fairly regularly.

 

Why don't you just provide a savegame of a scenario in progress where you are being walloped by invincible air groups?

 

OK, I'll re-play the scenario to get a save.

 

Incidentally, last evening, I tried to re-play the scenario - just to see if my theory about different behaviors from game to game could be confirmed. Initially (over the first game-hour or so), it appeared that not only was I unable to kill any F-16s, but also wasn't able to kill any F-15Ks, either! Then, all of a sudden, I was able to get "reasonable" kill rates on both types, and this situation persisted... er, well, until I dumped the game in frustration because I lost a large group of F-2Xs due to running out of fuel on their return-to-base dash (Man! that is annoying! You'd think that the pilots and/or their flight directors would keep tabs on fuel consumption! )

Maybe it would be helpful if we could determine why your installation does not experience these behaviors, yet mine does - and fairly regularly.

 

Why don't you just provide a savegame of a scenario in progress where you are being walloped by invincible air groups?

 

OK, I'll re-play the scenario to get a save.

 

Incidentally, last evening, I tried to re-play the scenario - just to see if my theory about different behaviors from game to game could be confirmed. Initially (over the first game-hour or so), it appeared that not only was I unable to kill any F-16s, but also wasn't able to kill any F-15Ks, either! Then, all of a sudden, I was able to get "reasonable" kill rates on both types, and this situation persisted... er, well, until I dumped the game in frustration because I lost a large group of F-2Xs due to running out of fuel on their return-to-base dash (Man! that is annoying! You'd think that the pilots and/or their flight directors would keep tabs on fuel consumption! )

 

Surely you are playing with range circles on, aren't you?

Immediately upon my firing my missiles, the AI group would launch its own AIM-120s, and reverse its course... but it would maintain its 533 knot cruising speed. Meanwhile, I'd manually reverse the course of my F-15J Plus group, and then set it to full afterburners (1338 knots). Yet, while my 1338 knot group could barely out-run the AI missiles (well, most of the time, anyway ), the AI groups could always out-run my missiles at only their 533 knot cruise speed... and even if the speed display of the AI group was incorrect for some reason, and the F-16s were actually flying at their maximum speed (of about 200 knots slower than the F-15s), they shouldn't have been able to consistently out-run my AIM-120's... should they??

Yes, if you fire your missiles at maximum range (it's easy if you're playing without range circles), the enemy planes can reverse its course and evade your missiles, flying at cruise speed. Your missiles simply going out of fuel/range. And I suppose the enemy planes are near bingo, if not, they reverse with afterburner to evade your missiles. I've observer this action when the enemy planes are at limit of range.

The invincible air groups ? I can observe similar conducts, but only when playing with my personal databases, with very enhanced countermeasures, not in the standard databases.

Another posibility is, in relation with the first item: You almost EVER fire your missiles at extreme range, and the enemy planes outrun the missiles with a simple reverse, or without it. They're situations when you fire missiles at extreme range, the missiles simply never can reach the target because mere range issues.

And in all the aforementionated issues, we can find some perception issues, as example, sometimes, because the imperfection and excentricities of range circles and formation editors, we can do bad interpretation/perception of maximum ranges.

Maybe it would be helpful if we could determine why your installation does not experience these behaviors, yet mine does - and fairly regularly.

 

Why don't you just provide a savegame of a scenario in progress where you are being walloped by invincible air groups?

 

OK, I'll re-play the scenario to get a save.

 

Incidentally, last evening, I tried to re-play the scenario - just to see if my theory about different behaviors from game to game could be confirmed. Initially (over the first game-hour or so), it appeared that not only was I unable to kill any F-16s, but also wasn't able to kill any F-15Ks, either! Then, all of a sudden, I was able to get "reasonable" kill rates on both types, and this situation persisted... er, well, until I dumped the game in frustration because I lost a large group of F-2Xs due to running out of fuel on their return-to-base dash (Man! that is annoying! You'd think that the pilots and/or their flight directors would keep tabs on fuel consumption! )

 

Surely you are playing with range circles on, aren't you?

 

Most certainly! Range circles give lots of clues and in particular help me to quickly discern various group types - just by seeing their missile and/or radar ranges.

 

However, in the case of air groups running themselves out of fuel on the return-to-base dash, you still need to keep constant tabs on the fuel range circle - something which often tends to be out-of-sight/out-of-mind when you're distracted by several other engagements that come up during the particular group's return flight.

Immediately upon my firing my missiles, the AI group would launch its own AIM-120s, and reverse its course... but it would maintain its 533 knot cruising speed. Meanwhile, I'd manually reverse the course of my F-15J Plus group, and then set it to full afterburners (1338 knots). Yet, while my 1338 knot group could barely out-run the AI missiles (well, most of the time, anyway ), the AI groups could always out-run my missiles at only their 533 knot cruise speed... and even if the speed display of the AI group was incorrect for some reason, and the F-16s were actually flying at their maximum speed (of about 200 knots slower than the F-15s), they shouldn't have been able to consistently out-run my AIM-120's... should they??

Yes, if you fire your missiles at maximum range (it's easy if you're playing without range circles), the enemy planes can reverse its course and evade your missiles, flying at cruise speed. Your missiles simply going out of fuel/range. And I suppose the enemy planes are near bingo, if not, they reverse with afterburner to evade your missiles. I've observer this action when the enemy planes are at limit of range.

The invincible air groups ? I can observe similar conducts, but only when playing with my personal databases, with very enhanced countermeasures, not in the standard databases.

Another posibility is, in relation with the first item: You almost EVER fire your missiles at extreme range, and the enemy planes outrun the missiles with a simple reverse, or without it. They're situations when you fire missiles at extreme range, the missiles simply never can reach the target because mere range issues.

And in all the aforementionated issues, we can find some perception issues, as example, sometimes, because the imperfection and excentricities of range circles and formation editors, we can do bad interpretation/perception of maximum ranges.

 

Yes, all of this is understandable - which is why this particular situation is so puzzling: Specifically, we have two aircraft types (F-16s and F-15s) which happen to carry the same missile type (AIM-120A/B) often going in head-on engagements; according to the missile range circles, the two groups fire their missiles at essentially the same time, when they are at about 70%-80% of the maximum range, then both reverse course at roughly the same time... and that's where things start getting strange: Although I immediately set my F-15s to full afterburner (giving their max speed of 1338 knots), in every case where I've checked, the F-16s are still going at only their cruise speed of 533 knots (and even if they went to their max speed, it is only 1174 knots - compared to the F-15's 1338 knots).

 

However, the F-15s' missiles almost always fail to reach the slower F-16s, yet about 15%-20% of the time, the F-16s' missiles kill the F-15s... so, unless my geometry is faulty, my F-15s should be more likely to to be able to outrun the F-16s' missiles, rather than the other way around... and this should be especially true if the F-16s really are going only 533 knots.

 

So it's confounding:

First, it doesn't make much sense that the F-16s don't go to full afterburners (as you said, most aircraft do appear to "turn and burn") - so perhaps the speed display just isn't being updated, or whatever. (The F-16's do appear to travel the about same distance away from the engagement point as do the F-15s in the same amount of time - which itself doesn't seem quite right).

Second, since the F-15s should be more likely to out-run the missiles, yet they don't, it makes me wonder if there is some countermeasures issue going on - where the F-16s can "spoof" the missiles 98% of the time, while the F-15's don't have that capability - rather than this being a matter of just running the missiles out of fuel.

And lastly is the question of whether the missiles on the two types of planes actually differ somehow - even though they are listed as the same thing. I have never checked the speeds of the missile groups themselves, partly due to lack of time, and mostly due to my assumption that they are identical missiles.

 

Yet, if no such 'special factors' apply here, then the end results seem to be quite bogus... leaving me to wonder why - and whether there is any way to overcome them (i.e. - to successfully attack those near-impervious F-16s).

I'd like to see a savegame that shows this.

I'd like to see a savegame that shows this.

 

 

I started a re-play of MiddleWeights (from WestPac) last Monday because that is the scenario where the "impervious F-16s" occurred. From the git-go, it was apparent that this session was not going to "cooperate" - at least not to the extent that I had seen in that one horrendous session. However, early on, I did get a save of one measley instance that resembles the situation.

 

I then continued to play the scenario over the past few days, in hopes that the behavior would change over time (as it sometimes does), and give additional/better examples. Well, tonight, things were a bit more cooperative, and I have two more saves of other instances of the situation... and also a save of one which appears to be a case of the "invincible AI air group" situation! Unexpected jackpot!

 

And, as an added bonus, there are even a couple saves of instances of the "invisible AI missiles".

 

I've written up the "play by play" in a text file, to help you see what to look for, and how I actually conducted the play from the savepoints. Hopefully, all this will provide what you want to know... but I'm continuing to play the samre session in hopes of capturing more instances, as well as getting some saves of another behavior that doesn't seem just right to me.

 

Ugh! I was able to attach the text descriptions file, but it is rejecting all my game save files... so I'll have to go figure out how to submit them... stand by...

 

Hopefully, that worked....

Middleweights_scenario_anomaly_descriptions.zip