May 26, 200917 yr Correction: The Mirages, assuming that they are heading toward a known target area...an airfield, would have a 90% (tactical turns) or 60% (engagement turns)chance of detecting the Eagle's APG-63 (in search mode) at out to 155nm through its 1st (?) Generation RWR. A successful RWR (ESM) detection reveals the type of emitter, and its bearing from the detecting unit. RWR only alerts the pilots to attacks from radar guided weapons, not search radar. My bad.
June 1, 200917 yr Author 2x F-18 Hornets come up against 4x Mig-21 Fishbed J's. I didnt realise until later that these two types of aircraft are featured in the H4.1 example. Pregame The F-18, whoooa! ATA of 4.5. What a dog-fighter!!! Armed with 4xAIM-7M Sparrows which are 3rd Generation missles with an ATA of 6.5 all aspect missile. A deadly combination. Mig 21's are no slouch in the dog-fight respects, but after the Hornets ATA rating a 3.5 for the Mig seems .... pedestrian. The AA-2d Atoll are 2nd generation wide aspect missiles are rated at ATA of 2.5. Looking at the offensive capabilities here, the Migs better get the first shot against the F-18's or at best hope the F-18's dont get into a firing position because i think it might be "one shot, one kill" for the F-18's. Special conditions.This scenario assumes all aircraft are already at dog fight range. This negates the F-18's ability to fire at medium range and perhaps even up the odds before any dog fight begins. Also, at the start of each 30 second phase, a die roll of 1 on a D6 means the F-18's have hit "bingo" on their fuel and need to break off the engagement since this also potentially makes the F-18's at a disadvantage due to 6.3.3.3.3 (fleeing a dog fight). The engagement starts at high altitude. 30 seconds The Migs have a 30% chance of getting into a firing position, however none are able to. Both F-18s have a 70% chance to be in a firing position and make their rolls. The SARH (radar homing) missile of the F-18's kill chance is not affected by the Migs 2nd Generation Decoy (decoys dont work against radar homing, right?). Each F-18 fires a single missile (even though they could fire 2 missiles each, correct?) with a 60% chance of hitting. Inside the first 30 seconds and the F-18's have shot down one Mig each. And what perhaps started as an even fight has suddenly swung in the F-18s favour. 60 seconds The F-18s roll a 4 on their D6 so they have enough fuel to continue the fight. The remaining 2 Migs again fail to gain firing position. Both F-18s do gain firing position, with one shooting down a Mig with a single missile. And the fight has quickly become lop sided. 90 seconds The F-18s roll a 4 again against there fuel so are able to continue the engagement. For game purposes, the last remaining Mig chooses to run. 6.3.3.3.3 says only the "faster" aircraft can choose to run so comparing speeds and the Mig (1204kts at high altitude) is faster than the F-18s (1032kts at high altitude). So at high altitude the Mig is faster than the F-18 so it is able to flee. Interestingly i am about to roll for exit speeds and heights for the Mig based on the Mig being faster. However at Very Low altitudes the F-18 is faster than the Mig. So what altitude is "faster" based on? Where the dog fight started or ends up finishing after the random die rolls? The Mig departs at 1204 - 250 = 954kts and 5 miles from the center of the dogfight remaining at high altitude heading S. The first F-18 departs at 982kts, 8 miles from the centre of the dogfight heading NNE and the second F-18 is 832kts, 10 miles from the centre and heading North. A good result for the retreating Mig because the F-18's will need to turn around before firing. Its taken me an hour of real time to get this far which included noting down plane data, consulting rules, die rolls and writing this AAR. I am tempted to end the engagement here but decide to finish off the detail by determining if the F-18s can get a shot off on the retreating Mig. 120 seconds (I forgot to roll D6 to see if F-18's hit "bingo" on fuel this phase). The Mig continue to run and has moved an additional 4.0nm from the "centre", placing it 9 miles from the centre. Each F-18 is able to turn 180 degrees and chase the Mig, the first F-18 is 8 miles from the center but closes 4nm so is 4 miles on the other side of the centre, or 13nm from the Mig. The second F-18 finishes 6.5nm from the centre or 15.5nm from the Mig. 150 seconds F-18's roll 5 so still have fuel. Mig hits the afterburners and is able to accelerate up to 421kts from 954 to 1204kts (top speed). The first F-18 does the same and (.1x4.4x1032) accelerates up to 464kts to its top speed of 1032kts. The difference in speed (1204 - 1032) is 172kts which see's the Mig increasing the distance to the closest F-18 by 0.7nm each 15 seconds. So the range is opens up to 13.7nm with the Mig accelerating away. Seems like the fight is over, right? Well the F-18s Sparrow has a range of 31.0nm. The closest F-18 fires a single missle at a starting range of 13.7nm. The Sparrow has a speed of 2295kts and the speed differential means the Sparrow is closing at a rate of 9.0nm per 30 seconds. Range to Mig 31.0nm / rate of closer 9.0nm means it will take 3.5 x 30 second turns. Not long ... but in those 3.5 turns the Mig has travelled 17.5nm. Given the Mig started 13.7nm in front and is able to run a further 17.5nm before potential impact, it means impact takes place (13.7 + 17.5) 31.2nm from the initial firing point. And the Sparrow has a range of ONLY 31.0nm. So the Mig is able to (just) get out of range and escapes home. I didnt plan on it being that close, i had no idea where the maths would take me. After match report As good as the F-18 combo were, i didnt think it would be so one sided. Certainly the F-18s had a much higher chance of winning the encounter but they ended up with the much better die rolls also. And that killed it. It was only luck the final Mig was able to escape. I rounded some of my maths to the nearest 0.1nm thinking it didnt matter. In hindsight every inch came into play. Even though it didnt come into play, the "bingo" die roll was exciting and could have turned the tide at the start of any turn.
June 1, 200917 yr The SARH (radar homing) missile of the F-18's kill chance is not affected by the Migs 2nd Generation Decoy (decoys dont work against radar homing, right?). Depends. Chaff is a decoy against radar guided weapons.
June 1, 200917 yr Author I hadnt considered chaff as a decoy ... and if i did, i thought it was more like flares. Thinking about it now though, is chaff like an explosion of small metallic particles designed to appear "large", bright and have a large radar cross section so that a missiles homes on it?
June 1, 200917 yr Thinking about it now though, is chaff like an explosion of small metallic particles designed to appear "large", bright and have a large radar cross section so that a missiles homes on it? More or less, yes.
June 3, 200917 yr I think later MiG-21s were R-60/AA-8 capable, but I'm not sure. Remember, also that the -21 is a 60s aircraft, while the Hornet is 80s.
June 3, 200917 yr I think later MiG-21s were R-60/AA-8 capable, but I'm not sure. Yes, from 1975, aboard the fourth generation MiG-21bis Fishbed L/N.
June 4, 200917 yr What about India's Bison (son of Bis - no I'm not making that up!): http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html Decoys scabbed on sides (call them 3rd Gen D) CL EL-8222 jammer pod (3rd gen Jammer) UW1 HP with R-77 UW2 HP with R-73 Aimed by HMS, Kopyo radar.
June 4, 200917 yr What about India's Bison (son of Bis - no I'm not making that up!) Yeah, at my prodding, Pete Maidhof pitted some IAF Bisons against some Pakistan AF F-16s here. Interesting results.
June 5, 200917 yr Threw 8 Soviet MiG-23M at 8 French Mirage F1C using the new air combat rules. Timeframe is 1976. At this time the MiG-23M have 2 R-23R and 4 R-60 and internal 23mm. Unfortunately the MiG-23M were suffering from quality control issues with the mid-body swing wing mechanisms (fixed from 1977). This limited Man Rating to 2.5 (vs Mirage F1C 4.0). Due to the limited agility the Soviet pilots had not had a chance to practice dogfight tactics - I rated the pilots as 50% recruit and 50% novices as a result. The Mirage F1C has 2 R530 msls (The Magic 1 did not enter service till 1978 and Super 530F after this) and internal 30mm cannon. The aircraft are head to head to, Low altitude (they both have long range SAMs to worry about - first error on my part) maximum detection range (21 nm Cyrano IV radar vs MiG-23M or Small tgt). The Detection phase sees the French detect the Soviets at 21 nm, the Soviets see the French (no they don't as Safir-23D vs Small is only 14 nm - second error). R-23R range is 12.8 nm, R530 is 10.2 nm (these should have been halved, see above), with everone heading in 650 kts (2.7 nm/move phase = 5.4 nm closure rate). First Turn First Move: 21 nm Detect Second Move: 15.6 nm Second Fire phase: Aircraft can fire in this phase (2.2.4). Although msl ranges are 12.8 and 10.2, the aircraft closure rate is 5.4 nm/phase (although if aircraft turn this throws things out). As I said this should have been French fire only. Everyone fires two msls at one tgt (One MiG-23M has two R-23R failures, one Mirage F1C remains free from fire) One of the things that still gets me is that aircraft fire missiles, but they don't move till the next phase. Mirage F1C moves 2.7 nm, the R530 at 6.4 nm/phase is only 3.7 nm ahead of the firing aircraft. Second Turn First Move: 10.2 nm between aircraft, missiles are heading in Detect: Everyones RWR is going off. Second Move: 4.8 nm. Both the R-23R and R530 arrive, everyone choses to maneuvre, which means they can no longer provide SARH guidance. Except one Mirage F1C is still providing SARH guidance. One MiG-23M is blotted out. No-one has any ECM fitted (no jammers or decoys). Third Turn Everyone is at dogfight range and a massive furball ensures. Basically during the next two turns all the MiG-23M are shot down. The fact the French pilots are better proficiency (by two to three levels), the Mirage F1C are much more agile (Man Rating: 4.0 vs Man Rating: 2.5), even though they are not fitted with short range AAM - the French splash all the MiG-23M using 30mm cannon. Two rules mistakes I made: 1) AAM range is halved at low altitude. 2) Range was 21 nm during first turns detection phase. French detect the Soviets, the Soviets cannot detect the French. The French should have got a free shot at the Soviets before they could have replied. A couple of scenario balance - should have removed the restrictions from the Soviets, a couple of years later the Soviets would be able to use full agility, pilot restrictions would have been lifted, R-60M would be available. However the French would also have ended up with Magic 1 and Super 530F. I was going to follow up with MIG-23M vs F-104G (RO radar, 4 AIM-9D, 20mm), and F-4E(4 AIM-7E, 4 AIM-9J, 20mm), but little point - the scenario remains unbalanced. I need to re-read all the air combat and missile movement rules (3.4.4)....
June 7, 200917 yr Since everyone else is doing it… I want to see if the infamous Yak-38 “Forger” is actually any good in combat, or for just for shooting down patrol aircraft. Note, I’m using an online dice-roller for this. Scenario The year is 1985. Four A-7Es (ATA 1.0 due to being fully loaded), launched from a US carrier, are attempting to conduct an airstrike on Kiev. They are all carrying: - 1 20mm Vulcan (ATA 4.0) - 2 AIM-9M (ATA 6.5) - 4 Mk 84, which only serve to reduce their base ATA to 1.0. I want to see if keeping their bombs on makes any real difference. Four Yak-38Ms (ATA 3.0) are launched to intercept and destroy them. These carry: - 4 R-60M [AA-8 Aphid] (ATA 4.5) I am assuming that, since all the relevant weapons are short-range, everyone starts in a dogfight. The Yak-38Ms are vectored in by GCI and so start with advantage. The A-7Es are disadvantaged. Therefore, the Yaks have ((6 + 3 – 1)* 10) + 10) = a 90% chance of getting into position. The AA-8s have a 55% chance (taking the 2nd gen decoys into account) of hitting. The A-7s, in counterpart have (6 + 1 – 3 * 10)- 10 = 50% chance of getting into position for an AIM-9 shot and no chance of a cannon shot. The AIM-9s have a 60% chance of hitting. Target assignments: A-7 1 -> Yak 1 A-7 2 -> Yak 2 A-7 3 -> Yak 3 A- 7 4 -> Yak 4 Yak 1 -> A-7 4 Yak 2 -> A-7 1 Yak 4 -> A-7 2 Yak 3 -> A-7 3 So here we go! 0:00-0:30 A-7 1: 98, not in position A-7 2: 18, in AIM-9 position A-7 3: 28, in AIM-9 position A-7 4: 48, in AIM-9 position Yak 1: 16, in R-60 position Yak 2: 84, in R-60 position Yak 3: 25, in position Yak 4: 29, in position In order of firing: Yak 2 on A-7 3: 99- misses A-7 4 on Yak 4: 90- misses Yak 4 on A-7 2: 28- Hits! A-7 3 on Yak 3: 23, Hits! Yak 3 can’t shoot as it’s going down A-7 2 is also going down Yak 1 on A-7 4: 7, Hits! After 30 seconds, it’s 2-1 to the Forgers. 00:30-01:00 Yak 1 goes for A-7 1, while Yak 3 goes for A-7 3 A-7 1: 60, not in position A-7 3: 10, in position Yak 1: 54, in position Yak 2: 52, in position Yak 4: 19, in position Yak 1 on A-7 1: 29, hits! Yak 2 on A-7 3: 33, hits! Yak 4 doesn’t need to fire. No A-7s are left in the game. For sake of seeing what happened to our pilots per rule 8.1.3 (Aircrew Survival): A-7 1: Ejects, needs 7 cycles to recover A-7 2: Dies A-7 3: Ejects, needs 7 months to recover A-7 4: Ejects, needs 6 days to recover Yak 3: Dies Conclusions A bit of a miss-match, possibly. However, I thought that the superior AIM-9M would have given the A-7s a better chance in this fight. Clearly the Yak-38s had the advantage in terms of agility, they are after all VTOL aircraft (was thrust vectoring something Forger pilots were encouraged to). Clearly the Forger isn’t all that bad. Then again, this was against attack aircraft with plenty of advantages.
June 8, 200917 yr I'd have to check the Annexes, but an A-7E at full military power is faster than the Yak-38. If the A-7Es, drop their bombs and engage the Yak-38, the Soviet side has 'won' as the airstrike is effectively aborted.
June 8, 200917 yr Author PG_H4 Hahaaha. Good to see others making errors, in the first phase no less. Still, i have made some earlier than that ... I wonder if aircraft have ever flown towards each other and loosened off a mass of ATA missiles at long range before a fur ball begins? It sounds more like something out of Buck Rogers. Good write up. I dont have the new combat rules (i'm just saying). Silent Hunter Comments to come.
June 8, 200917 yr A bit of a miss-match, possibly. However, I thought that the superior AIM-9M would have given the A-7s a better chance in this fight. Clearly the Yak-38s had the advantage in terms of agility, they are after all VTOL aircraft (was thrust vectoring something Forger pilots were encouraged to). Clearly the Forger isn’t all that bad. Then again, this was against attack aircraft with plenty of advantages. If I can use my Yaks to conduct 'spoiling attacks' against incoming strikers or otherwise drive them off (or cause them to abandon their strike) and splash the occasional snooping MPA, I'm pretty happy.
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