Can someone please tell me why these 2 reports have different sonar stats?

 

After selecting the sub in the unit window, one report is obtained with the "full" button, the other with the "display" button.

 

 

 

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P.S. I just found a way to force an immediate post. Normally, you create a post and hit the "post" button. Then the message goes to a moderator, who views it, approves it , and posts it (or not). But in this case, I first previewed the post, and when I hit "post", the message was posted immediately.

 

The same thing works when you edit existing posts. The revised post does not go to the moderator, but is posted immediately.

Can someone please tell me why these 2 reports have different sonar stats? After selecting the sub in the unit window, one report is obtained with the "full" button, the other with the "display" button.

 

Tony can fill in the code background here, or correct me if I'm off the mark.

 

The first, "active" unit display shows the best sonar performance you can expect given the conditions right now.

 

The second display shows the database values for your sonars, i.e. their "textbook" performance.

 

I just found a way to force an immediate post. Normally, you create a post and hit the "post" button. Then the message goes to a moderator, who views it, approves it , and posts it (or not). But in this case, I first previewed the post, and when I hit "post", the message was posted immediately.

 

Thanks, VitP. That might explain some weirdness that we were seeing with posts immediately appearing. Of course, I should add that we are not moderating the HCE beta forum here.

 

The same thing works when you edit existing posts. The revised post does not go to the moderator, but is posted immediately.

 

Yes, we were already aware of that.

 

In either case, rest assured that if a post contains something we feel is inappropriate, it will not stay posted for very long. Thankfully, most folks around here are mature enough to know the difference for themselves.

my 2 additional cents

 

The different displays are not purely due to sonar in actual conditions vs db values but also due to the tweaking of the sonar model during HC Gold development. It is a combination of both that results in the different display (pure DB vs model+environment).

 

As Brad said, there is no moderation queue here in the beta area like there is in the other areas of HarpGamer. The Preview is not making the difference, moderation just isn't required here.

Another I noticed looking at the screenshots. The top submarine is running at max speed, and that will seriously degrade the sonar ability, hence the reason your sonars have lost their CZ abilities.

Another I noticed looking at the screenshots. The top submarine is running at max speed, and that will seriously degrade the sonar ability, hence the reason your sonars have lost their CZ abilities.

 

Actually, I believe the display of 32/32 under Max Speed in the first report indicates that the full 32 knots is currently available to the platform (IE, not reduced due to any damage), and not the speed the platform is currently using. This is similar to the 107/107 immediately above for Damage Points.

 

Buddha

Another I noticed looking at the screenshots. The top submarine is running at max speed, and that will seriously degrade the sonar ability, hence the reason your sonars have lost their CZ abilities.

 

Actually, I didn't say it at the time, but the scenario was from the demo, WestPac battleset. It's the last scenario on the list, where there's a lot of ground units about to slug it out. The U.S. has one sub (the LA), which is actually stationary. That is the unit I was using to make the screenshots.

I would like to understand this matter in somewhat greater depth.

 

Here are 3 more examples:

 

 

 

 

Now the 2 main points I want to raise are that the information on the first 25 nm is essentially uncorrelated for the 2 types of displays, and the information for the CZs is only weakly correlated. If we go by the "Unit Display" information, then all 4 subs except the Oberon have excellent sonars, while the Oberon is pretty good. If we go by the information in the "Active Unit Display", then the Improv(is)ed LA has excellent sonar, the LA and Trafalgar are pretty good, but the Oberon really should be hiding somewhere, because its sonar is pretty poor. Also note that the "Active Unit Display" shows much better sonar performance in the direct path region.

 

Because the displays give such different information, actually incompatible information, I think that we have to conclude that they cannot both be correct.

 

Subsidiary Points:

 

1) The widths of all the convergence zones appear to be about 1/3 of 25 nm, i.e. 8.3 nm.

 

2) The data for the LA was obtained from a WestPac scenario. The sub was located just west of the Philippines. The data for subs 2-4 was taken from a GIUK scenario. The subs were in various locations near Iceland. If you compare the convergence zones, you see that they are slightly different for different scenarios (eg. one goes out to 105 nm while a corresponding one goes out to 99 nm), but identical within one scenario. This is a common effect in Harpoon, and in light of the foregoing discussion, I would say that this is one aspect of the local and temporary actual conditions.

 

3) I hope I understand this correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but in those cases where an active sonar has convergence zones, I would understand that to mean that that unit can pump a signal out that far, and it will still be strong enough after reflection and the return trip to be distinguishable from background.

 

4) The detection probability is given as 50% for all the passive sonars. Most likely this is just a base value, and there will be negative modifiers for a variety of reasons. But that's 50% every 30s.

Actually, I believe the display of 32/32 under Max Speed in the first report indicates that the full 32 knots is currently available to the platform (IE, not reduced due to any damage), and not the speed the platform is currently using. This is similar to the 107/107 immediately above for Damage Points.

Buddha

 

This is correct.

Because the displays give such different information, actually incompatible information, I think that we have to conclude that they cannot both be correct.

 

The significant factor not shown in the display (and therefore not considered) is the self-noise of the platform, which has an effect on own sonar performance. This is the BSL value in the database.

 

I hope I understand this correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but in those cases where an active sonar has convergence zones, I would understand that to mean that that unit can pump a signal out that far, and it will still be strong enough after reflection and the return trip to be distinguishable from background.

 

Active sonar CZ detections are not modeled by the HCE code. But, theoretically, yes, the active sonar has to be strong enough as you've described. Background is not usually a huge factor because the water needs to be deep for CZ's to be possible in the first place.

 

The detection probability is given as 50% for all the passive sonars.

 

This sonar range shown is the 50 percent probability range as drawn from H4 paper rules annexes.

Another I noticed looking at the screenshots. The top submarine is running at max speed, and that will seriously degrade the sonar ability, hence the reason your sonars have lost their CZ abilities.

 

Actually, I believe the display of 32/32 under Max Speed in the first report indicates that the full 32 knots is currently available to the platform (IE, not reduced due to any damage), and not the speed the platform is currently using. This is similar to the 107/107 immediately above for Damage Points.

 

Buddha

 

 

Oops, hehe. That just goes to show that I don't know it all after all.