The red thing north of the carrier group is a November-class sub. Better not be ESM on that thing; it's underwater.

I presume the neutral units aren't feeding info to the Vietnamese, especially the whales.

I like to take one problem at a time and I think the screen-shot THB-1 and Joe's AAR at:

At 11:43:xx to-go, Red group ZER appears 138 nm SE of its base, cruising at Low (560 knots) with radar active and target of ADA.

are pretty hard to fathom.

Fact: the hawkeye heading NE (high altitude, radar silent?) has been detected by Red and the closest CAP (from one of the base formations) has been sent to intercept.

Questions:

1/ what type of detection. I'm baffled (unless Victor's idea about neutrals?)

 

Guess what , the Neutrals are working for the North Vietnamese in 2009.50-53 (and earlier). I'll post a 2009.054 in a bit (running the build right now). It may also be true that the AI fighters don't give up the chase after contact is lost. I'm not certain but it would be great if someone would make a test scenario.

 

Situation:

1. E-2 radiates and gets picked up by ESM.

2. AI vectors fighters to intercept.

3. E-2 turns off radar, continues on for more than 10 minutes (time for uncertainty zone to go away) but stays outside of radar detection range.

4. E-2 turns 180 degrees or otherwise severe course change.

5. AI fighters may follow the course change even though the E-2 should no longer be detected (this is what we're looking for and testing).

 

So if someone can set that up (I imagine 3-4 units, Red installation with ESM, red fighter, blue e-2 or larger plane, and a platform from which the blue plane can take off). If you are able to make the steps happen post up an Issue please in the Issue Tracker.

The red thing north of the carrier group is a November-class sub. Better not be ESM on that thing; it's underwater.

I presume the neutral units aren't feeding info to the Vietnamese, especially the whales.

I like to take one problem at a time and I think the screen-shot THB-1 and Joe's AAR at:

At 11:43:xx to-go, Red group ZER appears 138 nm SE of its base, cruising at Low (560 knots) with radar active and target of ADA.

are pretty hard to fathom.

Fact: the hawkeye heading NE (high altitude, radar silent?) has been detected by Red and the closest CAP (from one of the base formations) has been sent to intercept.

Questions:

1/ what type of detection. I'm baffled (unless Victor's idea about neutrals?)

 

Guess what , the Neutrals are working for the North Vietnamese in 2009.50-53 (and earlier). I'll post a 2009.054 in a bit (running the build right now). It may also be true that the AI fighters don't give up the chase after contact is lost. I'm not certain but it would be great if someone would make a test scenario.

 

..............

So how did you confirm that?

 

..and now we can look further into "Joe's report".

Don

My comments on Joe's screenshots (other than the above):

 

[sS1]

Why does the intercepting AI fighter have its radar on? Doesn't this require a specific reason? One, I know, is if it is itself detected by radar. The other might be that it is tracking down an uncertain contact.

I think that it came out of formation patrol (CAP) from one of the bases (sent to intercept the bogie) and would have had radar on as default while in CAP.

Don

Are the Vietnamese fighters ESM-capable? I believe we've already worked out that the Hawkeye, starting from the carrier and moving NE, is always outside ESM range from any Vietnamese ground unit.

I know I recently saw esm range stuff, but can't find it now Victor, it's 110% of radar line of sight, right? and for a high altitude plane to ground that is what? about 240nm giving esm range of about 265?

(I think it is in the manual so I'll loook it up anyway)

Don

I think in 2009.050 we prevented the whales from be blubber mouths but I wouldn't stake my life on it.

 

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

Which about says it all.

 

So, really, the answer to Joe's question, oh so long ago, really should have been, yes, the AI sees you in ways that you cannot see it.

 

Joe reported that his Hawkeyes did not turn on sensors until well away from the carrier. So the detection must have been visual. Even though the whales are working for the Vietnamese (I think this is certain because there just isn't any other way to detect that Hawkeye), they are still submerged, and can't see much. This leaves only the drug runners. Joe stated that his trial was during daylight, so the drug runner would have been able to see the Hawkeye. I bet that when Brad, who presumably lives in a different time zone, did his trial, it was night, so the Hawkeye was NOT spotted visually.

 

Corollary: if you're trying to test whether an interceptor can track a radar-silent plane, make sure it's beyond visual range, and keep the time of day in mind.

 

At this point, I would say that everything in Joe's SS1 is explained.

 

Now, when I played that scenario, I was deliberately exposing my Hawkeyes, and I was never surprised that they should be found. Joe was hiding his, so he was surprised that they were found.

 

Donald, the ESM data is in Brad's post 36, "scenario creation" thread and following.

Continuing into Joe's report:

 

(35 minutes in) "As of this point, NONE of the Red air groups have yet been detected by the Blue side, even though ZER (with its radar active) came within 75 nm of Hawkeye ADA, AND was within the radar range of ACA."

 

Explanation:

 

Hawkeye does not have ESM, so does not pick up radiating fighter ZER. Hawkeye does not see ZER visually, because it's small, and if there was a chance, Hawkeye failed. Hawkeye, on the other hand is big (easier to see), and besides, it is being tracked after a previous contact. Hawkeye ACA can see the fighter at best at 80 nm via its own radar (not its radar range of 240 nm.

 

"At 11:12:xx to go, ...

ZCR is 81 nm from Hawkeye ADA; both have their radars on, but so far, NONE of the Red air groups have been detected by Blue."

 

Explanation:

 

ZCR is low, Hawkeye is high (vertically challenged radar, no ESM), so Hawkeye doesn't see ZCR.

 

BTW, speeds are pretty reliable, no real need to investigate them.

 

"At approximately 11:00:xx to-go, ZDR passes nearly over the center of the carrier group, with both now approximately 100 nm from stationary Hawkeye ACA."

 

Explanation:

 

I think this plane is safe until the carrier group turns its radars on, unless it gets within gun range. It may or may not be visually detected, low-ship range = ?. This does not bother me. The SE Hawkeye had a good chance to detect it at 38 nm, but well below 100%.

 

Hawkeye ACA IS detected by the green/red drug runners, and therefore gets hunted.

 

"At 10:03:15 to-go, YZR, still at cruise/Med, passes over the center of the carrier group, and is 59 nm from ACA at that point. Carrier group shows visibility of 21 nm."

 

Explanation:

 

This is an exaggeration. See SS 2. The fighters are about 25 nm from the group icon. We don't actually know where the ships are, because the unit window is hidden. Again, the plane is small, so I am guessing that visual detection ranges are reduced.

 

"At 09:55:55 to-go, YZR is the first Red air group detected by Blue in the entire game, and is detected by ACA only. YZR is still cruise/Med at that time, and is located 40 nm from the ACA Hawkeye, and 24 nm from the carrier group center."

 

Explanation:

 

So far, so bad. Maybe you got some bad luck, but there are no unexplained phenomena yet.

 

"At 09:13:xx to-go, Red air group YXR ... appears near base ZVa ...with target of Hawkeye ACA, and is detected via ESM from the RA-5C,

but no group for it shows on the Group Window in normal mode.

 

At 09:06:xx to-go, Red air group YWR ... appears near base ZVa ... with target of RA-5C AEA, and is detected via ESM from the RA-5C, but no group for it shows on the Group Window in normal mode."

 

They should show up. Look at the icon name - these are not base formation patrols. Also, interceptors get separate icons. Maybe we are dealing with a screen refresh issue here. I have observed a small delay in some situations.

 

Then the visual detection results are just plain bad, but I think this is normal in Harpoon.

 

more later

I think in 2009.050 we prevented the whales from be blubber mouths but I wouldn't stake my life on it.

 

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

Which about says it all.

 

So, really, the answer to Joe's question, oh so long ago, really should have been, yes, the AI sees you in ways that you cannot see it.

.........................

I think that getting something concrete that we could look at instead of just a large amount of comments made a big difference.

Donald, the ESM data is in Brad's post 36, "scenario creation" thread and following.

thanks, got it now.

Don Thomas

Continuing into Joe's report:

 

(35 minutes in) "As of this point, NONE of the Red air groups have yet been detected by the Blue side, even though ZER (with its radar active) came within 75 nm of Hawkeye ADA, AND was within the radar range of ACA."

 

Explanation:

 

Hawkeye does not have ESM, so does not pick up radiating fighter ZER. Hawkeye does not see ZER visually, because it's small, and if there was a chance, Hawkeye failed. Hawkeye, on the other hand is big (easier to see), and besides, it is being tracked after a previous contact. Hawkeye ACA can see the fighter at best at 80 nm via its own radar (not its radar range of 240 nm.

 

"At 11:12:xx to go, ...

ZCR is 81 nm from Hawkeye ADA; both have their radars on, but so far, NONE of the Red air groups have been detected by Blue."

 

Explanation:

 

ZCR is low, Hawkeye is high (vertically challenged radar, no ESM), so Hawkeye doesn't see ZCR.

 

BTW, speeds are pretty reliable, no real need to investigate them.

I did a radar log (now I know how to) with a E-2B against mig-21 and got:

100691 search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=E-2B Hawkeye Target=MiG-21MF Fishbed J, TargetRange=173, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256

100691 search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 271nm = (271nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=73569/256

100691 search.c:867 - A RCS=137 TName=MiG-21MF Fishbed J AName=E-2B Hawkeye Range=173 Die=36 aPD=60

100691 search.c:940 - B RCS=137 ARng=87 Arng=238 SRng=87 Srng=238

100691 search.c:1017 - Not Detected MiG-21MF Fishbed J

IE max effective radar range (in this case) 87 nm and prob of detection (if in range) of 60%

each case is different though, different conditions that influence the effectiveness of the radar but if the planes did come to within 75 nm and stayed there for any amount of time then I guess you are going border line and depending on luck.

and for the Mig

100691 search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=MiG-21MF Fishbed J Target=E-2B Hawkeye, TargetRange=212, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256

100691 search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 271nm = (271nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=73569/256

100691 search.c:867 - A RCS=157 TName=E-2B Hawkeye AName=MiG-21MF Fishbed J Range=212 Die=99 aPD=40

100691 search.c:940 - B RCS=157 ARng=23 Arng=29 SRng=0 Srng=0

100691 search.c:1017 - Not Detected E-2B Hawkeye

effective air search range just 23 nm, as you say you can see a hawkeye before then (if he's infront of you )

effective air search range just 23 nm, as you say you can see a hawkeye before then (if he's infront of you )

Nice work Don, I think you've got the hang of it

I'll have a go at time :

At 10:03:15 to-go, YZR, still at cruise/Med, passes over the center of the carrier group, and is 59 nm from ACA at that point. Carrier group shows visibility of 21 nm.

 

At 09:55:55 to-go, YZR is the first Red air group detected by Blue in the entire game, and is detected by ACA only. YZR is still cruise/Med at that time, and is located

40 nm from the ACA Hawkeye, and 24 nm from the carrier group center.

referring to screen shot THB-2.jpg

"passes over center of carrier group", it would have been good to look at the unit window here to see how close YZR came to individual ships. I think these early hawkeyes don't have LDSD radar so if ACA is loitering at high alt and YZR is medium then I believe the effective air search radar is halved (now down to about 40 nm) - someone might confirm that-. That corresponds to the report.

I guess that "Carrier group shows visibility of 21 nm" is taken from the weather report, any way if YZR is 24 nm from group centre and vis is 21 nm then placement of ships of the group will be important, but still a pair of mig-17 won't be seen at the max visibility range, see later on when similar visuals are made at 1 nm.

Don

Joe stated that his trial was during daylight, so the drug runner would have been able to see the Hawkeye. I bet that when Brad, who presumably lives in a different time zone, did his trial, it was night, so the Hawkeye was NOT spotted visually.

 

Yep, mine was run at night, around 02:30. Good catch.

 

At this point, I would say that everything in Joe's SS1 is explained. Now, when I played that scenario, I was deliberately exposing my Hawkeyes, and I was never surprised that they should be found. Joe was hiding his, so he was surprised that they were found.

 

If we can blame it on visual spotting by the neutrals, then I'd like to know if Joe only experiences this phenomenon only when neutrals are involved and a chance of them spotting or detecting his units.

 

If so, then Joe gets some vindication, finally! And we get to squash (I hope) a bug that I had thought we had dealt with quite awhile ago.

I think these early hawkeyes don't have LDSD radar so if ACA is loitering at high alt and YZR is medium then I believe the effective air search radar is halved (now down to about 40 nm) - someone might confirm that-. That corresponds to the report.

 

see my post 22, "scenario creation" thread

So how did you confirm that?

Don

 

I played the opening minutes of the scenario a couple of times. The first time I had the same results Brad did, no vectoring of AI fighters towards the E-2. But I was curious so I ran it again with E-2 radar on and again confirmed Brad's findings. For no particular reason I ran it again with the E-2 radar off and saw the AI send fighters to me. The only units reasonably close that could have had a detect were the drug runners. Having something to work from I loaded up the game in the debugger and managed to catch the detection without too terribly much work (luckily there aren't many detections going on at that point in the game so the data wasn't overwhelming).

 

I suppose that's how I did it.

So how did you confirm that?

Don

 

I played the opening minutes of the scenario a couple of times. The first time I had the same results Brad did, no vectoring of AI fighters towards the E-2. But I was curious so I ran it again with E-2 radar on and again confirmed Brad's findings. For no particular reason I ran it again with the E-2 radar off and saw the AI send fighters to me. The only units reasonably close that could have had a detect were the drug runners. Having something to work from I loaded up the game in the debugger and managed to catch the detection without too terribly much work (luckily there aren't many detections going on at that point in the game so the data wasn't overwhelming).

 

I suppose that's how I did it.

Thanks, I assume your debugger is a full line by line critter, rather handy.

Don

At this point, I would say that everything in Joe's SS1 is explained. Now, when I played that scenario, I was deliberately exposing my Hawkeyes, and I was never surprised that they should be found. Joe was hiding his, so he was surprised that they were found.

 

If we can blame it on visual spotting by the neutrals, then I'd like to know if Joe only experiences this phenomenon only when neutrals are involved and a chance of them spotting or detecting his units.

 

Yep, a double check on that point seems a good idea, could consciously steer away from any green units but otherwise follow old scheme?

 

If so, then Joe gets some vindication, finally! And we get to squash (I hope) a bug that I had thought we had dealt with quite awhile ago.

 

Well done Joe