March 13, 201115 yr I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway?
March 13, 201115 yr I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway? If I'm lucky enough to pick up a Rafale by esm, I turn and run, (but usually I just get shot down)....that's how I deal with them. Don Thomas
March 13, 201115 yr And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway? France has a long tradition of selling advanced weapons to rogue states, as Iraq or Libya. Also in the History Channel episode about future air combat, the opossition forces has Su-37, MiG-29 ... and Rafales ...
March 13, 201115 yr Author I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway? If I'm lucky enough to pick up a Rafale by esm, I turn and run, (but usually I just get shot down)....that's how I deal with them. Don Thomas Not helpful, Donald. Not helpful at all! At least you could have suggested something like "small animals that eat the eggs". That way I would have something to work with.
March 13, 201115 yr And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway? Rafale was in competition for the South Korean F-X requirement at one point. One of the great thing about writing hypothetical scenarios is that I get to choose the OOB, like I did for Middleweights.
March 13, 201115 yr I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? ... Now, this is going to sound wierd in light of all the problems that I've had with other a/c types in Middleweights (and considering that was one scenario where I found a lot of anomalies, this might just be another one), but: I had no particular problem with the Rafales as compared to the other types. The longer-ranged missiles were the biggest issue, but I regularly got ample detection of them via AEW, so I was able to avoid them... at least, none ever "snuck up" on me, so I assume that my side detected them all. I usually just avoided them when possible, or snuck up on them enough to lob some missiles at them and get them to back off, while bugging out right after missile launch. However, I was worried enough about those long-range missiles that I mounted attacks on their base, in an attempt to shut them down a bit... and with some success, although the trade-off in losses of attack planes might not have been much more than a wash.
March 15, 201115 yr I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? ... While testing my game-saves for Middleweights, I encountered a group of Rafales, so I played along - even though they were not part of the test in question. Anyway, it made me recall a tactic that I had used successfully against them before: I'd bring two or more pairs of F-15s w/AIM-120s to engage the Rafales. The first group in would run in at Low altitude with ABs on, launch a volley ASAP (to draw return fire), turn away, and go to max AB to escape the Rafales' missiles, and maybe even fire a second volley in order to draw more return fire. If this didn't exhaust the Rafales' long-range missiles, I'd either bring in another pair of F-15s for a similar maneuver, or if I didn't have a third pair of F-15s around, then I'd "buzz" the Rafales with the first group, and burn out, in hopes of getting them to use more of their long-range missiles. Once they'd burned thier long-range stingers, I could bring in the other (still armed) pair of F-15s and nail the Rafales, because the AIM-120s slightly out-range the Rafale's secondary missiles... and the Rafales did not seem to have much in the way of counter-measures against the AIM-120s (unlike the impervious F-16s seemed to).
March 15, 201115 yr I'd bring two or more pairs of F-15s w/AIM-120s to engage the Rafales. The first group in would run in at Low altitude with ABs on, launch a volley ASAP (to draw return fire), turn away, and go to max AB to escape the Rafales' missiles, and maybe even fire a second volley in order to draw more return fire. If this didn't exhaust the Rafales' long-range missiles, I'd either bring in another pair of F-15s for a similar maneuver, or if I didn't have a third pair of F-15s around, then I'd "buzz" the Rafales with the first group, and burn out, in hopes of getting them to use more of their long-range missiles. Once they'd burned thier long-range stingers, I could bring in the other (still armed) pair of F-15s and nail the Rafales, because the AIM-120s slightly out-range the Rafale's secondary missiles... and the Rafales did not seem to have much in the way of counter-measures against the AIM-120s (unlike the impervious F-16s seemed to). Sounds like a useful way of dealing with Rafales. The F-16s aren't "impervious", btw, and in general are inferior to the Rafales when it comes to both detection and in defeating missile attacks on them. The Block 50/52+ with ECM pod is the only F-16 version that can match Rafale.
March 15, 201115 yr The F-16s aren't "impervious", btw, ... You should try playing that scenario on my machine... the blasted things are darned near impervious here. Can't kill 'em... half the time, can't even see 'em! Interestingly enough, the other types of AI a/c (F-15K, Rafale, Golden Dragon?) in that scenario aren't nearly as tough to shoot here. But the F-16s? I might as well knock ping-pong balls at them... at least I can out-run 'em (well, most of the time)!
March 15, 201115 yr You should try playing that scenario on my machine... the blasted things are darned near impervious here. Can't kill 'em... half the time, can't even see 'em! Interestingly enough, the other types of AI a/c (F-15K, Rafale, Golden Dragon?) in that scenario aren't nearly as tough to shoot here. But the F-16s? I might as well knock ping-pong balls at them... at least I can out-run 'em (well, most of the time)! Maybe you should get in the habit of saying that's what happens on your machine, then? Oh, one other F-16 version that might be superior to Rafale in defeating attacks, the Block 60.
March 15, 201115 yr Maybe you should get in the habit of saying that's what happens on your machine, then? Gee, I thought that had become a foregone conclusion... that goes without saying. Seriously, I don't want to add fuel to the notion that it only happens on my machine.
March 15, 201115 yr Seriously, I don't want to add fuel to the notion that it only happens on my machine. And, likewise, not having any proof of it, I am resistant to the notion that it happens anywhere else.
March 15, 201115 yr Seriously, I don't want to add fuel to the notion that it only happens on my machine. And, likewise, not having any proof of it, I am resistant to the notion that it happens anywhere else. Which is why I'm trying to develop that proof. Meanwhile, I don't want further stack the deck against that possibility.
March 16, 201115 yr I have been looking at the WestPac Middleweights scenario. I can't say for sure, but I think the computer (N or S Korea) gets Rafales. We have lots of good AEW planes, and lots of planes with 40 nm AMRAAMs, but the Rafale is hard to detect AND it has 54 nm AA missiles. Any suggestions on how to deal with this menace? And how in the heck did either Korea get Rafales anyway? If I'm lucky enough to pick up a Rafale by esm, I turn and run, (but usually I just get shot down)....that's how I deal with them. Don Thomas Not helpful, Donald. Not helpful at all! At least you could have suggested something like "small animals that eat the eggs". That way I would have something to work with. Sorry, Rafales make me feel very temporary. What I do is pretty much standard I guess? I get two of my smallest stealthiest fgt that can flow vlow, I get say four big ugly (and fast) fighters. I fly the stealthy (Hmm, here I think some F16s?, I'd have to check-but that would be too helpful ) fellows down as low as they go (radar off) towards my ESM contact of the Rafales about 20 nm in front of the big fellows flying medium altitude with radar on. I cross my fingures that 1/ The rafales get completely absorbed by the big target and, 2/ I get a red fix on 'em before they fire at either of my guys. I then order my low flying 'killers' to attack the Rafales (if they are already in range of my killers I make sure I am close enough that they won't do the skidaddle). I fire every thing I have and get the killers out high altitude reheat, , if the decoys are in range of the Rafales, ditto, get out on reheat. So actually I do still turn and run (like a choook) Don
March 16, 201115 yr Author Joe (post 7) & Donald (post 14): Thanks; those tactics sound useful. I guess it's pretty important to have superior numbers available. Maybe doing a surround as well will help. Maybe I will work out the "no-escape" distance of the Meteor vs. various AB speeds. Chook, what's that, Oz slang?
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