donaldseadog

In my untrained mind I see the E-2B as a kind of large mast for mounting my ships' radars, I put them within the groups CAPs and at medium altitude which (if I correctly interpret all the performance data) doesn't greatly , if any, reduce its use as the likely hood of high alt incomers is pretty low and it still has much the same performance against them, but better performance against the more likely low level incomers. Don Thomas

Have you got something else radiating nearby? Might the enemy be investigating that, and just tripping over your Hawkeye? If this is for something other than the Viet Nam Bridge scenario, might the hostile fighters be checking out a sonar detection of your CV, and again just running into the Hawkeye by accident? (And of course, this is probably another one of those cases where you'll be told that a saved game would be useful ... ) Nope, nothing else. Also, apparently not the case anyway, because examination of the targets of those intereceptors showed they were specifically going after the Hawkeyes. It does seem that the question of unexpected detection was caused by data transfer from the neutral drug runner, which was probably overflown by the hawkeye on its way out on patrol. I'd think that unless some one comes up with something to the contrary using latest betas the matter is put to bed. As I've said in another post, I've tested to my satisfaction using three HCE game versions but not the demo, out of curiosity I'd like to hear that the demo is now OK on this point.

The scenarios that come with battlesets aren't in separate files, but reside within the battleset files. A matter of choice where you put your custom scenarios, but if you become addicted (like many of us) you'll soon clutter up your HUCE folder, I use a separate folder "addons" (in which I have my custom scenarios [and custom battlesets] in folders named after their respective database, so I can remember which database I need to play the scenario). Have fun, and I invite you to try out some of my WWII scenarios in the Westpac section of Harpgamer downloads. Don Thomas

Good demo, something similar on the ocean with smallish boats if there is a bit of a swell too, amazing how close they get before you see them unless you know where to look - and that's in the day time with the sun behind you and high in the sky. I'd have to say I haven't noticed problems that I'd put down to visual IDs, but while we are on that tack it sounds like its worth investigating. I'd assume that like a lot of things in Harpoon its governed by the paper rules (that I know nothing about), so what do they say? and then we can test if we are getting that.

Scratch my earlier reply, I didn't notice this was in Harpoon 4 section.

I don't have the demo installed but I used 2009.53, 2009.54 (the bug fix) and the latest 'experimental' 2011.01 In 2009.53 I flew low to about 30 nm from drug runner, loitered for ten minutes, climbed to high and interceptor came out every time (did about 3 trys). Flew to a spot about 100 nm away, but closer to red base, did the same and no reaction. Did same in the other two versions, and no reaction... so I'd guess the bug had been fixed but in the putting together of the 2009.53 (my understanding is that is a fine tune of 'Ultimate', and not with all the beta changes since the previous patch [2009.42?]). ... Anyway I think a good team effort

YUm, YUm, this looks like being another of Brad's classics, and as I'm sitting with my old sick dog at the moment I'll be straight into it - yipee

In addition to what Brad has said; the commondb.rsr file you downloaded is needed to use divefreak's databases (the 'res' type files in the download, or update them at harpgamer). It includes all the standard harpoon stuff so you can put it in the base harpoon folder (to replace the standard after saving it somewhere). That way you don't have to do any swapping or selection (in Launcher) or the 'rsr file. The time line system is well set up for using the launcher, when you open it you'll see that you can select the battleset, the database and the scenario or saved game, as well as other stuff. The time line folder system just makes it all organised. Don Thomas

If we can blame it on visual spotting by the neutrals, then I'd like to know if Joe only experiences this phenomenon only when neutrals are involved and a chance of them spotting or detecting his units. Yep, a double check on that point seems a good idea, could consciously steer away from any green units but otherwise follow old scheme? Well done Joe

I played the opening minutes of the scenario a couple of times. The first time I had the same results Brad did, no vectoring of AI fighters towards the E-2. But I was curious so I ran it again with E-2 radar on and again confirmed Brad's findings. For no particular reason I ran it again with the E-2 radar off and saw the AI send fighters to me. The only units reasonably close that could have had a detect were the drug runners. Having something to work from I loaded up the game in the debugger and managed to catch the detection without too terribly much work (luckily there aren't many detections going on at that point in the game so the data wasn't overwhelming). I suppose that's how I did it. Thanks, I assume your debugger is a full line by line critter, rather handy. Don

I'll have a go at time : referring to screen shot THB-2.jpg "passes over center of carrier group", it would have been good to look at the unit window here to see how close YZR came to individual ships. I think these early hawkeyes don't have LDSD radar so if ACA is loitering at high alt and YZR is medium then I believe the effective air search radar is halved (now down to about 40 nm) - someone might confirm that-. That corresponds to the report. I guess that "Carrier group shows visibility of 21 nm" is taken from the weather report, any way if YZR is 24 nm from group centre and vis is 21 nm then placement of ships of the group will be important, but still a pair of mig-17 won't be seen at the max visibility range, see later on when similar visuals are made at 1 nm. Don

I did a radar log (now I know how to) with a E-2B against mig-21 and got: 100691 search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=E-2B Hawkeye Target=MiG-21MF Fishbed J, TargetRange=173, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 100691 search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 271nm = (271nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=73569/256 100691 search.c:867 - A RCS=137 TName=MiG-21MF Fishbed J AName=E-2B Hawkeye Range=173 Die=36 aPD=60 100691 search.c:940 - B RCS=137 ARng=87 Arng=238 SRng=87 Srng=238 100691 search.c:1017 - Not Detected MiG-21MF Fishbed J IE max effective radar range (in this case) 87 nm and prob of detection (if in range) of 60% each case is different though, different conditions that influence the effectiveness of the radar but if the planes did come to within 75 nm and stayed there for any amount of time then I guess you are going border line and depending on luck. and for the Mig 100691 search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=MiG-21MF Fishbed J Target=E-2B Hawkeye, TargetRange=212, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 100691 search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 271nm = (271nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=73569/256 100691 search.c:867 - A RCS=157 TName=E-2B Hawkeye AName=MiG-21MF Fishbed J Range=212 Die=99 aPD=40 100691 search.c:940 - B RCS=157 ARng=23 Arng=29 SRng=0 Srng=0 100691 search.c:1017 - Not Detected E-2B Hawkeye effective air search range just 23 nm, as you say you can see a hawkeye before then (if he's infront of you )

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: Which about says it all. So, really, the answer to Joe's question, oh so long ago, really should have been, yes, the AI sees you in ways that you cannot see it. ......................... I think that getting something concrete that we could look at instead of just a large amount of comments made a big difference. thanks, got it now. Don Thomas

Ah, good. Since radar range due to LoS (Earth's curvature effect) from high to ground is about 250 nm, we can now say that ESM could pick up the plane at about 275 nm. Add 25 nm for the attached ground units. Therefore, if the radiating Hawkeye at high altitude is within 300 nm of either Vietnamese base proper, then it will be detected by ESM. Further away, it is below the horizon. So, what's the deal when I park the Hawkeyes out there 300 nm or more, with their radars left OFF? I dunno, it seems a bit much to me, but I guess I wouldn't feel so bad if my side could also use blind ESM to do similarly effective intercepts at similar distances. Not the issue I know, but why are you putting a hawkeye right out there with no escort and are you using it as a pure esm platform (as you have the radar off)? E-2Bs don't have esm I think?

I know I recently saw esm range stuff, but can't find it now Victor, it's 110% of radar line of sight, right? and for a high altitude plane to ground that is what? about 240nm giving esm range of about 265? (I think it is in the manual so I'll loook it up anyway) Don

I think that it came out of formation patrol (CAP) from one of the bases (sent to intercept the bogie) and would have had radar on as default while in CAP. Don

I like to take one problem at a time and I think the screen-shot THB-1 and Joe's AAR at: are pretty hard to fathom. Fact: the hawkeye heading NE (high altitude, radar silent?) has been detected by Red and the closest CAP (from one of the base formations) has been sent to intercept. Questions: 1/ what type of detection. I'm baffled (unless Victor's idea about neutrals?) Guess what , the Neutrals are working for the North Vietnamese in 2009.50-53 (and earlier). I'll post a 2009.054 in a bit (running the build right now). It may also be true that the AI fighters don't give up the chase after contact is lost. I'm not certain but it would be great if someone would make a test scenario. .............. So how did you confirm that? ..and now we can look further into "Joe's report". Don

Yes, I've had time to play with this and see that now. I'm guessing the database for the demo is based on HCDB-something, if so none of the red planes are ESM capable, (some are missile warning capable). I like to take one problem at a time and I think the screen-shot THB-1 and Joe's AAR at: are pretty hard to fathom. Fact: the hawkeye heading NE (high altitude, radar silent?) has been detected by Red and the closest CAP (from one of the base formations) has been sent to intercept. Questions: 1/ what type of detection. I'm baffled (unless Victor's idea about neutrals?) 2/ what platform detected. I'm baffled (ditto) 3/ is it reproducible? I've tried in my HCE versions and can't get it to happen. 4/ is it a fluke (e.g. a dice roll of 0 deciding some probability of 1%) or is it something in the demo version? 5/ has anyone set up the plot in the demo game, taken an early game save and done lots of auto play (ctrl-alt-z) high time compression runs to see how often it occurs. Even in Brad's post I'm thinking Red was lucky to get an esm from one of the land platforms, that's assuming the migs in the demo have no esm (and the green drug runners aren't on the take), and I didn't reproduce that (hawkeye with radar on going to station) over a half dozen attempts in various HCE game versions.

OOps, slow me, I was using 2009.42, could I run the 2009.53 without the latest HCE patch while waiting for 'ultimate'? Don.

Yes. You need the "AS (360 degree)" flag to avoid that. Thanks,

Well, let's see ... I ran the Thanh Hoa Bridge scenario myself, using the HCE Demo and trying to replicate Joe's observations. Here is a screenshot of my E-2B taking off and heading off to the northeast, just as Joe's did, staying radar silent and outside the range of North Vietnamese radars. You can see a frenzy of North Vietnamese formation patrols in the Unit Map, including a pair of MiG-17s and a pair of MiG-21s in the Gulf of Tonkin (inside the blue circle). There is also a long range patrol by a pair of MiG-21s just off the southwest coast of Hainan, which is visible on both the Unit and Group Maps (inside the blue square). I also see what looks like a Red surface vessel lurking behind a green to the north of the carrier group at about what looks like AAM range red circle ESM platform? A win for screen shots, yes? Don Thomas

Can some one confirm or otherwise my assumption that an aircraft radar with LDSD flag, but no other air search flag, has a blind spot through the tail? TIA Don

That all helped heaps Tony, (I think it is starting to be useful to me) Now: another string of log- 105641 Search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=F-111C Aardvark Target=Amberley, TargetRange=178, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 105641 Search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 246nm = (246nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=60644/256 105641 Search.c:867 - A RCS=199 TName=Amberley AName=F-111C Aardvark Range=178 Die=38 aPD=0 105641 Search.c:940 - B RCS=199 ARng=0 Arng=0 SRng=364 Srng=160 105641 Search.c:958 - Detected Amberley with Surface Radar of range 364 with PD 65, Roll=38 105641 Search.c:1024 - Type of target known I see a test for F 111C detecting Amberley base at a physical range of 178 nm. Line of sight emitter to target is 246, check OK. F 111C has no air search so ARng & Arng = 0, check OK Database gives range of SS radar for Ardvark as 160 nm (= Srng as I expect from looking at other logs items) BUT here the (I'll call it final surface range) SRng is more than double at 364 nm - this takes the case from one where the target is out of range to where it is in range. QUESTION: how does that final ss range more than double? QUESTION: what is difference between "A RCS" & "B RCS"? I see a air detection prob ( aPD) = 0, check ok, but in the same area there is no print out of the sPD (see next log string), here I only know the sPD from the 'detected Amberley' line. QUESTION: is than an omission from the logging printout? next string: 105611 Search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=F-111C Aardvark Target=Amberley, TargetRange=178, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 105611 Search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 246nm = (246nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=60644/256 105611 Search.c:867 - A RCS=199 TName=Amberley AName=F-111C Aardvark Range=178 Die=77 aPD=0 105611 Search.c:940 - B RCS=199 ARng=0 Arng=0 SRng=364 Srng=160 105611 Search.c:1017 - Not Detected Amberley I see from the numbers in the left columns this is 30 secs prior to the first string I showed (last previous radar detection tests). Here Amberley isn't detected but it doesn't tell me why not, if I look at the other string I learn the sPD is probably 65 so the die throw was too big. MY CONCLUSION, the printout omits to list the sPD value in the ' A RCS...' line but it should. Don Thomas

Here is a small piece form a ge.log, with radar logging operating. 104351 Search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=AF-18A/B Hornet Target=E-737 Wedgetail, TargetRange=124, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 104351 Search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 327nm = (327nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=107057/256 104351 Search.c:867 - A RCS=157 TName=E-737 Wedgetail AName=AF-18A/B Hornet Range=124 Die=31 aPD=65 104351 Search.c:940 - B RCS=157 ARng=130 Arng=160 SRng=130 Srng=160 104351 Search.c:944 - Target was previously tracked. 104351 Search.c:987 - Detected E-737 Wedgetail with Air-to-Air Radar of range 130 with PD 65, Roll=31 104351 Search.c:1024 - Type of target known 104351 Search.c:860 - Radar Emitter=E-737 Wedgetail Target=AF-18A/B Hornet, TargetRange=124, Radar LOS = (BaseLOS x weather_mod + 128)/256 104351 Search.c:861 - Radar LOS of 327nm = (327nm x 256 + 128)/256 --> Radar LOS=107057/256 104351 Search.c:867 - A RCS=136 TName=AF-18A/B Hornet AName=E-737 Wedgetail Range=124 Die=44 aPD=80 104351 Search.c:940 - B RCS=136 ARng=113 Arng=317 SRng=113 Srng=317 104351 Search.c:1017 - Not Detected AF-18A/B Hornet I assume: Radar LOS = radar line of sight distance, ie from emitter to horizon, can't 'see' any further due to earth curvature, BUT, if so, is it taking into account height of emitter and target and if so is that shown? Somewhere I expect a little bit stating a final probability of the emitter detecting the target and a dice throw to determine, ie throw less than prob and get a detection other wise not...something like "Die=31 aPD=65" and bingo that works for one detection but in the second we have die=44 aPD=80 so my theory is bad, so what is this part? I guess RCS is radar cross section from the DB (I should check shouldn't I), my question though where is this put into the calculation of final detection prob? ARng, Arng, SRng & Srng; these must be significant as they seem to be the biggest difference between the two data/calculations, but what are they, where do they go into the maths? I'd like to get the hang of these logs (ECM is next) but I find I have a lot to learn. One more question, I haven't found a logging that helps me (this does ?) with esm, where do I go? Don Thomas

..and I thought my first 286, with one whole meg of RAM (and whopping 20 meg HD) was hot stuff. That's what using old XTs to do remote database searching does to you I guess. Don Thomas