donaldseadog

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES. I think you are right but I think the translation into Harpoon reality is that you can't refuel tankers in general, at least I've never been able to using normal refuelling procedures. There might be a trick to do it, any ideas?? Don That reminds me of a situation that happened recently, where I had four F-14A's configured with tanker loadouts, and due to a SNAFU, they were heading off towards a base in Timbuktu, instead of to their originating base. Thus, they were running out of fuel. Fortunately - or so I thought - a KC-10 was nearby, so I introduced them and tried to re-fuel. It seemed to be working, but the range circle on the F-14s kept on getting smaller, and eventually they dropped out of the sky. Now, this was close enough that I'm not sure if it was just a case that there was not enough time to do the refueling, but it certainly gave the impression that the F-14's were not IFR capable (like the similar situation with that KA-6, which actually happened in the same incident, BTW). Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that F-14As were IFR-capable... or does having them in the Tanker loadout remove that capability? Test it and see. Hint, in the message log window you will see the time at which the tanker gets ready to refuel and the time(s) that it refuels each unit (might be more than one receiving unit). You should see the unit's range circle grow and % bingo jump simultaneously with respective units 'starting' refuel. Don

I meant to comment on this earlier. The USNI scenarios are challenging, I'd agree, but "insanely hard" or impossible to the point that anyone should refuse to play them? Nah, can't agree with that. I would be interested in hearing about others' experience with them. Are you getting your butt handed to you regularly in USNI? Maybe it depends on your definition of insanity. I don't have access to the USNI scenarios right now, but looking at my old AAR, I recall that there was a huge variation in the starting airpower. Playing as the Russians, I remember that I got the maximum number of Fencers, without which the USSR probably has zero chance of winning. In general, if you get a poor OB and the AI gets a good one, you won't have a chance. Besides, Brad, what's challenging for you may well be be impossible for a non-expert. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1997503 Hasn't Joe been talking about being swarmed with 700-800 heavy bombers almost before he gets anything in the air in one scenario? He hasn't provided screenshots ... yet. So here is dumb question of the year (glad it is early in the year, I might get beaten before it ends).. I know i've seen USNI scenarios, but I can't find them. I'm sure they were 'resident' in the game battlesets but not now. I seem to have something funny with HDSM.res and HDSM.rsr files, should they be the USNI battleset?? (If so I need to reload I guess), otherwise where should they be?? I just have to have a go in there, nothing like an insane flogging DonThomas

Nope, proper English mate, them birds in the garden that lay eggs and go boook boook boook, don't you have em? All local birds died due to radiactive fallout. Won't be good for your goats either I guess (I'm assuming everyone has chooks and goats) Don

He ain't kidding. Sonar checks every 5 minutes. Kinda throws the statistics outta whack, huh? Moral of this story: Torpedoes are really mean. So in real life there is no doubt torpedoes are mean, how close to real life do these stats look, any one know? I'd assume a lot of work goes into making a torpedo as quiet as possible, ditto the subs of course, and while the torpedo is going fast it is pretty small and I assume running at its most advantageous depth. Interesting the 5 minute sonar checks (I assume we're talking passive?) is that some historical harpoon thing? In RL is listening done 360 deg, directional, combination? DonT

Nope, proper English mate, them birds in the garden that lay eggs and go boook boook boook, don't you have em?

Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget. If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling. Hope this helps, Don (and your post # 6) I learn something new every day. Don't we all

My comment to this is that, imo, the game/sim really isn't *designed* to be played without external knowledge. i.e. you're severely handicapped if you don't know what's a radar homer, what's an EO guided weapon, which missiles are heat-seekers, and which a/c have a high dogfight value. (Don't dogfight with F4s vs a Flanker OR a MiG-17, for example.) There are many other things it's good to know that could be classified as 'external knowledge', such as the fact that fighters are generally radar-blind in the rear, sort of like a submarine without a tail. What's helpful about coming here is that you can find out that particular *implementations* of those are a bit strange, like ARMs, for example. ................................... I totally agree, I've learned a huge amount from Harpoon and this site. If all this stuff was built in I think Harpoon would perhaps degrade to just another 'game'. As it is you need certain knowledge (which you can obtain here) and you need to do lots of thinking. Don Thomas

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES. I think you are right but I think the translation into Harpoon reality is that you can't refuel tankers in general, at least I've never been able to using normal refuelling procedures. There might be a trick to do it, any ideas?? Don

That's why I lobby for some more "automatic" features for re-fueling - such as automatic vectoring of tankers to groups, a la fighter intercepts. I often suffer more losses from re-fueling SNAFUs than from enemy action - simply due to all the micro-managing that it demands at times when my attention is diverted to other pressing matters, such as air engagements and/or other battles. It would be nice, but I think other priorities do exist. Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget. If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling. Hope this helps, Don

That is the term I use. Sometimes I call the others far misses though I doubt very much that is a standard term, clear miss is also used on occasion. I'd say "near miss" and "clear miss" respectively. I'd hope that with the near miss the torpedo has made a sonar fix on you but was unlucky and didn't get a hit, and that with the clear miss it never made contact. Hmm, I might try a test with logging and see what comes of it Don Thomas

If i'm desperate for an early kill and have plenty of torpedoes, I'll launch them in twos or threes, (particularly if the sub has got into range of my standoff weapons, which makes me very nervous as I'm probably in range of all of his weapons). Sometimes the first torpedo goes close (you see it glide past the target in the hit animation) but the second or third slams in for damage points. Even without a kill, the damage may significantly slow the sub or damage it sensors (I assume) and make your escape to safer waters easier, from where you launch attacks at your leisure. If you are lucky (i've seen it maybe twice in three years of play) you sink the attacking sub, definitely worth while Don Thomas

If I'm lucky enough to pick up a Rafale by esm, I turn and run, (but usually I just get shot down)....that's how I deal with them. Don Thomas Not helpful, Donald. Not helpful at all! At least you could have suggested something like "small animals that eat the eggs". That way I would have something to work with. Sorry, Rafales make me feel very temporary. What I do is pretty much standard I guess? I get two of my smallest stealthiest fgt that can flow vlow, I get say four big ugly (and fast) fighters. I fly the stealthy (Hmm, here I think some F16s?, I'd have to check-but that would be too helpful ) fellows down as low as they go (radar off) towards my ESM contact of the Rafales about 20 nm in front of the big fellows flying medium altitude with radar on. I cross my fingures that 1/ The rafales get completely absorbed by the big target and, 2/ I get a red fix on 'em before they fire at either of my guys. I then order my low flying 'killers' to attack the Rafales (if they are already in range of my killers I make sure I am close enough that they won't do the skidaddle). I fire every thing I have and get the killers out high altitude reheat, , if the decoys are in range of the Rafales, ditto, get out on reheat. So actually I do still turn and run (like a choook) Don

Hmmm... Well, is there any reasonable way to accomplish the command of re-fueling a group before it would happen automatically (by virtue of fuel remaining, I guess)? I have situations where I wish to re-fuel a group before their tanks are dry - for any of several reasons. I've been using ALT-R to do this... so perhaps I have been wasting fuel or otherwise fouling things up without realizing it. First, re your case with the tanker running low on fuel. I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon). Second, re the Alt R. If you have a group with a tanker with available fuel and units that can receive fuel inflight, then the Alt R will start the normal refuel early. If you have no 'receptive' units the fuel will get dumped. Third, re the order of fuelling, (if I remember correctly), say you have one tanker unit (any number of tankers) and two units (any number of individual planes) of a type that can IFR, the recipient unit with the lowest number (say group = AAA, units=AA00, AA01, AA02 and tankers are unit AA02, then AA00) will get fuel until either all fuel is exhausted or the unit is full, if then fuel remains the next unit will get fuel. If the tanker has more fuel than is needed to fill all planes in the group then that fuel is 'dumped'. So when making up your group you might add last the units that need the most fuel otherwise you might fill the guys that don't really need it and leave the thirsty ones dry. See the posts VictorInThePacific quoted for details on how much fuel you get from a tanker. One interesting tweak for long distance runs, if you have tankers of different types add longest fuel range ones first, you can get multiple refuels in the group if you have two or more tanker units (not two or more tanker aircraft, they must be in different units). The lowest unit number tankers will refuel first and if they don't exhaust their fuel they'll go home without the second tanker unit fuelling the group until you get to the next call for fuel. You need to know how much the group will take each refuel and how much the various tankers supply - it can become very complicated. Remember you can't refuel tankers and they don't seem to want to go home until they have emptied (I think that depends on the game version, it might have been altered at some stage) so make sure you don't take a tanker beyond range of home. Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy Don Thomas

All I can advise is to keep watch of what happens and think about why. Get to know how your various bits of equipment work and think about how you can use them to better effect. Try different approaches and find out which work. Don

No genuine question is stupid so no need to forgive. I think you should be able to see the other four parts that make up the sequence ending in FIGHT! as they appear in the westpac section of the downloads below FIGHT!, in date order one below the other They are: Pushing Back(4of5) , a cry for help(3of5),when shove comes to push (2of5), local bully (1of5). Starting from part one they make up a series of scenarios, each leading on from where the previous might well have finished (but not necessarily). Have fun Don Thomas

If I'm lucky enough to pick up a Rafale by esm, I turn and run, (but usually I just get shot down)....that's how I deal with them. Don Thomas

My thought is that a zig zag course should help especially with closing subs but that I can never be bothered to do it unless I know for sure that they're about. Interested to read what others do. DonThomas

File Name: Helicopter SEAD exercise File Submitter: donaldseadog File Submitted: 13 Mar 2011 File Category: WestPac DB Used: HCDB-110225 Authors: Don Thomas Battleset-WPac: .scq - WPac - WestPac A final of three small scale scenarios concentrating on SEAD operations and EW. Here Blue (play blue only) has no fixed wing planes but relies on helicopters for attack and SAM for defence. Uses Westpac battleset and standard database (HCDB-110225). Ever wanted to use helos as your front line interceptors?? Now's your chance (but don't waste them, hey). Don Thomas Click here to download this file

Yes, most definitely! But, n.b. that it is not the general case, and only happens every so often, intermingled with "normal" detection behaviors... and it often seems to afflict certain scenarios more than others. To me this hints that things are working correctly because every happening is modified by probability. Maybe keep a paper and pen handy with a little table for these 'happenings' and just put in a tick or cross to indicate one of these happenings being either as expected or not. As the numbers start to acculutlate you'll get a correct idea of how things are going, its very hard to make an accurate gauge form just seat of the pants feel. DonThomas

Yep, I'm not one to say that following intuition is always best, I wonder if Custer was following intuition? DonT PS, Also, when you get one of these contacts, I like to study the new contact information before dismissing the window. Check how many new contacts, how many of your platforms detect each contact, take a rough bearing from each of your detecting platforms (and where there are more than one get an approximate position) , think about the risk of the contact present and future, think about repositioning your groups or formation patrol units to provide better detection, maybe send in some recce unit (with EW cover if available), if you have some very stealthy fighters perhaps an intercept..... there's lots to think about for just one new contact.

Sounds about right, but I would like to add: 1) Actually locating those units in the unit window could be non-trivial. 2) If those base-formation planes decide to intercept you, they get their own group window icon, which you may or may not see, because they probably go low and silent and do their damnedest to bushwhack you. I would concur that I often see what has been initially described and that the event is the launch of aiarcraft as formation patrols and that actually getting them on the screen is hard work. I'd wonder how one determines that the launched aircraft aren't launched as part of a formation if one never sees them on the screen. I believe the way to test is: when you get the staff assistant message you get some options including "show" and "select", pick one of these ("select" is best) then go to 1:1 time (another option in the staff message) and see what has been selected. If it is a base or surface ship then the launch was a formation patrol (and as said it may quicly go to intercept but you might not know this), otherwise your selection is a aircraft group and if you quickly loose contact entirely then a 'blank' unit report. The other thing is to a very quick switch to 'see all' mode and work out what it was - you will have gotten clues regarding diection from the detecting platform. Remember that there is some degree of intuition needed, you don't just get all the info handed to you on a plate. DonThomas

A very comprehensive test indeed. If there's any thought that some people aren't getting the same sort of results, could you (Brad) post the scenario(S) and a few of us can run the same test and see how consistent are the results. My 'feeling' is that your figures don't surprise me relative to what I see on my machine. Don Thmas

Yes, I use a percentage of the maximum payload (as determined by the particular loadout) to calculate range. Just another reason why Harpoon is the ultimate simulation and not merely a 'game' Don

Yep, and still the case. I understand that somewhere around 60% fuel is fairly typical. Not represented in HCE, as fuel is expressed more as a function of 'range' than actual kg or liters of fuel. Which I guess is partially replicated by the multiple loadouts that have short and long range versions with more and less weapon load?? Or is this usually done on weapon pylon basis?? Don