pmaidhof

Played the scenario again using the interpretation that detection of AS radar against V/Low aircraft being 5% of the maximum range. Also, some greater understanding of the rules and more familiarity made for a better experience. I was not using the "Smarter Radar Rules" so radar detection in an engagement turn was 60%. How the interpretation of the AS - V/Low affected it was that the A-4's were not detected immediately by Coventry as the longer ranged British Radar (10nm vs V/Low) did not detect the inbound aircraft and the Type 22's radar was not effective as far. This did not stop one A-4 from crashing into the sea due to blowing his V/LOW-NOE Crash Probability roll while flying at 600kts. The reduced radar effectiveness allowed the three remaining A-4's to make it through the Type 42's Sea Dart effective range. In the end, the final Engagement Turn pitted three A-4's 2nm away from the British ships, with the two Sea Wolf missiles having been launched the previous 2nd Fire Phase, from Broadsword (Type 22), ready to move. I allowed the missiles to engage the aircraft first because the missiles, at 1,320kts, move 5.5nm per movement phase while the planes, at 600kts, move only 2.5nm per movement phase. The missile both hit their respective targets, taking out two of the three A-4's. The remaining A-4 attempted horizontal laybown bombing from V/Low (.05) and the three Mk83 stick plunged into the empty sea. British definitely got a scare while the Argentines did not celebrate their National Holiday as planned either. I am gaining a comfort level in the sequence of play and some of the other basics. I will run through this again once we have definitive word on the effectiveness of AS radar versus V/Low Pete

Either way they got it, something to which we should be ashamed - underestimating one's enemy.

Says F-117A downed with a locally improved SA-3 Goa. Critical of NATO OPSEC and Comm discipline. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SER...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

A formal question regarding 4.2.3.2 has been posed to the Trilogy staff. Will post answer when received.

Played the scenario again last night using the interpretation that detection of A/S radar against V/Low aircraft being 5% of the maximum range. Also, some greater understanding of the rules and more familiarity made for a better experience. I also was not using the "Smarter Radar Rules" so radar detection in an engagement turn was 60%. How the interpretation of the AS - V/Low affected it was that the A-4's were not detected immediately by Coventry as the longer ranged British Radar (10nm vs V/Low) did not detect the inbound aircraft and the Type 22's radar was not effective as far. This did not stop one A-4 from crashing into the sea due to blowing his V/LOW-NOE Crash Probability roll while flying at 600kts. The reduced radar effectiveness allowed the three remaining A-4's to make it through the Type 42's Sea Dart effective range. In the end, the final Engagement Turn pitted three A-4's 2nm away from the British ships, with the two Sea Wolf missiles having been launched the previous 2nd Fire Phase, from the Broadsword (Type 22), ready to move. I allowed the missiles to engage the aircraft first because the missiles, at 1,320kts, move 5.5nm per movement phase while the planes, at 600kts, move only 2.5nm fer movement phase. The missile both hit their respective targets, taking out two of the three A-4's. The remaining A-4 attempted horizontal laybown bombing from V/Low (.05) and the three Mk83 stick plunged into the empty sea. British definitely got a scare while the Argentines did not celebrate their National Holiday as planned either. I am gaining a comfort level in the sequence of play and some of the other basics. I will run through this again once we have definitive word on the effectiveness of AS radar versus V/Low Pete

I'm going to attempt this scenario again, maybe tonight based on the 10nm detection (opponents only start 12nm away with the A-4's closing at 2.5nm/movement phase of each Engagement Turn - 600kts/240) and hope to post a blow by blow account. The beauty of these South Atlantic War II scenarios are that they all seem to be on the small side, easily solitaire-able, and "instant action" - Good for learning.

Thwarted - while I still hold out hope for what we have dicussed above, one H4.1 old hand chimed in on the Admiralty Trilogy yahoo group yesterday with his opinion of max range x 5% (200nm in this radar's case). His rational was that at V/Low altitude, the A-4 would be detected after a stealthy a/c. If my proposed interpretation of the rule was applied to a stealthy a/c flying at V/Low, it would not be radar detected until close to 0.5nm. I'll loiter for a while or until I hopefully get an official response, but Paul's position seems pretty strong. I'll forward whatever I hear from Clash of Arms or higher.

Hi Brad/Tony, good to see you all again. My thinking leans toward 4nm as well as it "levels" the playing field for the A-4's. I ran through the scenario twice and the Argies were decimated. I also discovered errors in my play, such as the really short range of the Sea Wolf (data annex is in the car) and the role of the director in limiting the number of missiles in the air at any given time. Hope to re-run this tonight with effects of V/Low flight and directors to see if the A-4's can get any steel on target.

In replayng SAW II #16 Protect theBuildup, I felt that the Argentinians were taking too many losses so I re-read the detection chapter and immediately came across 4.2.3.2 Shipboard Air Search Radars. 4.2.3.2 "...can detect air targets at very low altitude as well as surface contacts at 5% of their maximum range." The Type 42 carried a Radar 965. Its range versus a small target such as an A-4 Skyhawk is 80nm. If the incoming Skyhawk is flying VLow/NOE and passes the VLow/NOE Crah Table DR is it detected at 80nm*5%=4nm (the range to that specific target, in this case a "small" target) or is it 5% of the maximum range regardless of the specific target - In this case 200nm*5%=10nm? Thanks in advance, Pete

South Atlantic War II - #16 - Protecting the Buildup Started this puppy last night. It is 1400 Local. Clear. British ships are 10nm north of Peeble Island and headed on a course of 270 degrees at 12kts. Coventry (Type 42) is leading Broadsword (Type 22) by 1000 yards. At 1406 Brits receive air raid warning. At 1410 A-4's enter 2nm south of Peeble Island. They are flying at 600kts and VLow. Brits, in their 42-22 missile trap have detected the 4x A-4's, Broadsword (Type 22) virually immediatedly upon the Argentine aircraft entering the board, and is preparing SAM shots. A-4’s spot a Small nautical target at 14nm. The sigma is 4 and the d10 roll is 6, which equals a +1, so final spotting range is 15nm. Since initial distance is only 12nm, British ships are spotted. They will be Identified at 11.25nm and Classified at 7.50nm. 14:10.30 Broadsword fires the first Sea Wolf SAM (SAM #1) in the Second Fire Phase of the Engagement Turn. 14:10:45 SAM #1, travelling at 5.5nm per movement phase destroys an A-4. The ATA is 5.0, the DATA is 1.0 (each A-4 loaded with 3x 1,000lb bombs). No mods, no countermeasures apply. The Sea Wolf has a 70% ph. Broadsword continues to fire Sea Wolves as the Skyhawks continue to close at 600kts. Each Engagement turn, a D10 is rolled for the NOE/VLOW Crash Probability. 1411:00 1st Air Attack Resolution, SAM #2 hits, SAM #3 misses. Second A-4 is downed. 2nd Fire Phase SAM #5 launches. 2nd Air Attack Resolution, SAM #4 hits. By 14:11.30 Broadsword engages with the Laser Dazzler and misses on its D10 roll. This leaves a solitary A-4 at .75nm. The guns of Coventry and Broadsword have not yet opened up. Seems that while flying NOE/VLOW takes Coventry out of the fight, the Sea Wolfs are quite lethal. I even believe that both the Fore and Aft mounts can each effectively launch a missile per engagement Turn – I was only firing one per ET. The A-4 are without countermeasures and lost 3 of 4 aircraft in very little time. It seems like they would have been doomed if it were not for British errors with the Harrier CAP and Coventry getting in between Broadsword and the attackers. More to follow.

South Atlantic War II - #16 - Protecting the Buildup Started this puppy last night. It is 1400 Local. Clear. British ships are 10nm north of Peeble Island and headed on a course of 270 degrees at 12kts. Coventry (Type 42) is leading Broadsword (Type 22) by 1000 yards. At 1406 Brits receive air raid warning. At 1410 A-4's enter anm south of Peeble Island. They are flying at 600kts and VLow. Brits, in their 42-22 missile trap have detected the 4x A-4's, Broadsword (Type 22) virually immediatedly upon the Argentine aircraft entering the board, and is preparing SAM shots. More to follow,

Ahh...Leaves are turning color, break out H4.1! I'm getting that urge... nuff said

I'll be sure to send a postcard.

FLIP IT! Let's get it on!

4.6.2 Airborne FLIR states …allows classifcation by type and class. It has a narrow field of view of 12 degrees for search, and 3 degrees for track and classification. 4.8.2 Laser Designators, Second Paragraph states …A designator can lase one target each 30 second Engagement Turn, and must have a visual line of sight to the target Situation: It is 1230, Visibility is 75%. An AV-8B II is on its attack run against an SA-6B launcher, at FMP of 580kts, at 500 feet. It is using a LITENING pod to lase the target. To determine visibility/sighting, I determine that a mobile SAM launcher is consider SMALL on the General Attack Table. 4.5.2 Sighting from Aircraft to the Surface indicates 14nm. I’m assuming a Sight Modifier of at least .5 for the target being stationary/camouflaged, and applying the visibility of 75% (14nm*.5*0.75) = 5.25nm. With a Sigma of 2, sighting would take place between 3.25nm and 7.25nm. How is the actual point of spotting occur? Do other players apply a Sight Modifier such as this? Per 4.8.2 the Laser Designation will only take place at a range of between 3.25 and 7.25nm? Thanks, Pete

Update on status? Here is my offer to assist.

Per Mr. Bond: "there are a lot of abstractions built into the GCS rules, designed to simplify play and keep the players' attention on the big picture, not down in the weeds. That being said, we obviously got a little too global when we said "SAMs," instead of something like "dedicated AA weapons." That better covers AAA and SAMs. Vehicle-mounted MGs and individual weapons do not count. If there are more than 10 AA weapons in the box, I'd give the player one automatic attack and roll D10 for the remainder. For example, of there are 13 weapons, the ground commander gets one shot and rolls for 3 on a D10 for a second shot. Roll randomly to see what type of weapon gets to shoot. Of course, this is a gross oversimplification, but I like gross oversimplification. It assumes that the ground commander has competently sited the weapons for maximum coverage and that the attacking pilot uses optimum tactics to avoid the weapons. Both of these decisions are implemented far below the players' level of command. You can get fancy, if you like. Inexperienced pilots subtract one from the die, novice pilots subtract two. If there's no friendly air search radar coverage of the box, add one. For every plane the attacker dedicated to AA suppression, subtract three. And so on. Their exact position is not important. They're in the box. Part of the D10 roll includes whether or not they're in engagement range. If a player is involved in a ground combat, and has committed his AAA to the ground fight, then they should be considered ground weapons. They will not be properly sited for AA defense, and their crews will be looking for targets on the ground, not the horizon. Even a system like a ZSU-23-4 needs a few moments for the crew to react, and if they're not in position, o, well. They may even be actively engaged when hostile aircraft attack (which is certainly what the opposing player will try to do). At the beginning of a ground combat turn, a player can change the mode of his AAA from air to ground or vice versa. They are in that mode for the entire 30-minute turn." -Pete

The accompanying audio clip of PM Thatcher in the House of Commons is priceless. I had to keep reminding myself it was a debate over warfare and the inherent loss of life, against the backdrop of world events of that time, while continuing to hear voices similar to that of a monty python skit.

In anticipation of running Dave Schueler's "Send In The Marines" from HNR2003, I am trying to get up to speed on LHA/VSTOL Flight Operations. I am using the AV-8B II data found in the HNR2003 and I would truely appreciate it if someone took a look at my numbers and planning process. Here it goes: Conditions: It is 1200 Local; Sea State 2; Winds 5kts 100 degrees True; Visibility 75%; Two layers of clouds - Intermittent @ 1,000m, 2,000m thick, and Scattered @ 12,000m, 1,000 thick. Intent: From USS TARAWA a section of AV-8B II will take off on a strike mission on a non-descript target 300nm away. The AV-8B II has a cruise range of 965nm and a maximum payload of 6,000kg. I will fly the first 200nm at High Altitude, the next 100nm at Low Alititude (attack run), and return back 300nm to Tarawa at High Altitude. Form 5 1. AV-8B 2. Turbo Fan Engine Type 3. 6,000kg Max Payload 4. 964nm Basic Range (600nm for mission) 5. Strike 6. UnderWing1 3xMk82 500lb GP Bombs @ 241kg each (6x 241= 1,446kg); UnderWing2 1x 300USG Drop Tank (+265nm each); UnderWing3 1x AIM-9L/M @ 85kg each (2x85=170kg). Centerline hardpoint - empty 7. 2,196kg Loadout Weight = LOAD1 Speeds Cruise Full Military Afterburner V/Low 460 (1.9) 580 (2.4) - Med 460 (1.9) 550 (2.3) - High 460 (1.9) 520 (2.2) - Ceiling 15,240m Leg1: Turbo Fan 200nm @ High Alt with LOAD1 = 200/0.8 = 250nm Leg2: Turbo Fan 100nm @ Low Alt with LOAD1 = 100/0.4 = 250nm Leg3: Turbo Fan 300nm @ High Alt CLEAN = 300/1.0 = 300nm Real Range = 800nm 10 minutes of Low Altitude Combat = ((10/60)x460)x3.5 = 273.7nm 800nm + 273.7nm = 1,073.7nm 965nm +265nm+265nm = 1,495nm which is greater than 1,073.7nm by 412.3nm 412nm is 24.8% of 1,495nm so 15% customary reserve is met. Launching Aircraft: Per 3.3.5.4.3 Pad Launch - One Aircraft per Spot, per Three Minute Tactical Turn. If using Engagement Turns, at end of Second Movement Phase, Aircraft is moving into the wind, at 25% max speed, at 100m. Question, if using Tactical Turns are the Harriers moving from a hover/roll to 460kts within that first three minutes and is it abstracted to the point that the Aircraft has travelled the full movement of 23nm (460/20=23nm) from Tarawa on the heading to the target within that first three minutes since liftoff? Thanks, Pete

Has anyone played this scenario? What were your thoughts as far as the Air-Naval-Ground interaction. I've been slowly getting up to speed on with H4.1 and the GCS, and this scenario is of great interest to me. Once I play it, I'll be sure to post an AAR. Thanks, Pete

In accounting for all the data for Send In The Marines, Harpoon Naval Review 2003, lists the LHA, LPD, LSD, CG, DDG, SSN, AH-1W, AV-8B II. I located the CH-53E on page B24 of the H4.1 Data Annex and the B-52G on page B21 of the H4 Data Annex. After reviewing those two annexes, and HNR 2003, 2000, and 1997, I have not been able to find the data on a CH-46E or UH-1N. Can anyone refer me to the appropriate annex, perhaps I even missed it in one of the pubs that I have looked. Also, would there be a problem with using 4.0 data on an aircraft not found in the 4.1 data annex? Thanks, Pete

If one of a ground unit's inherent air defense assets fires on an enemy aircraft which is attacking a point target within the ground unit's combat box, is that air defense asset's GCS subtracted from the overall unit's GCS if that overall unit takes part in combat that Ground Cobat Turn? A Special Rule in SAW2, page 58 states; "If a plane overflies a combat box and there is a hostile unit equipped with shoulder-fired SAMs, the chance of a plane being attacked by a SAM (being spottedby a soldier with his launcher ready and being within the launchers envelope)is equal to the number of SAMs in the combat box on a D10." What about a plane flying overflying a combat box and there is an Air Defense Artilley piece within that hostile unit's T/O? A ZSU-23 in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Infantry Brigade in Send In The Marines (HNR2003), ZSU-23-4 and SA-9 Gaskins of the Soviet Naval Infantry Battalions in Red Beach & The Russians Are Coming (Hide Tide). Instead of these assets just being at a generic location within a combat box, would a player have to give a specific, point, location within the box? I can see an exception being the ZSU-23's due to their very small size and relatively limited effective range, but what about the ZSU-23-4 and actual vehicle mounted SAMs? Thanks,

Will CPX be HC or 4.1? I believe I was told but....

Voted Hormuz, but Gibratar (US-EU) would be equally interesting.

Please disregard the previous post as it contains some honest, but erronious remarks. The Mk13 is a single "rail" launcher, hence the (1) in the Weapons Data Line. Rate of Fire is per engagement turn. I came about this after doing a number of searches on the three yahoo groups and consimworld. Finally came across message #246 on CSW Harpoon4 folder in which Dave Schueler states on 11 July 2003 that the ROF being per engagement turn. This was later confirmed a few messages later in the same folder by Charlie Spiegel as well. Good enough for me.