pmaidhof

Poking around here I found the answer for the effects of the Tornados VLow/NOE flight and Land Mass Effects on the Type 42's Radar 965M. Per Dave Schueler in Msg #588 on Consimworld's Harpoon 4 Folder and repeated here a number of years ago (2005). The Radar 965M's detection range of 174nm vs a large air target such as the Tornado GR.4 would be *10% or 17.4nm, then halved for the Land Mass Effects (GR.4 is coming out to the destroyer from landside) to 8.7nm. Would I be correct in assuming then Light Rain would bring on a 25% reduction in range and a 10% reduction in the chance of detection? So a final Radar 965M vs the VLow/NOE GR.4 coming out from land and in light rain would be 6.5nm? The GR.4 does not have any ESM other that RWR which will only detect targeting radar, not Air Search. The Type 42 has 2nd Generation ESM so it should be able to passively detect the Tornado Nose Radar out to 27nm, so it may know tonados are out there.

I worked up a Tornado GR.4 (from H4.1 Data Annex, Radar from Smarter Radar) and the Type 42 DDG ARA Hercules (from SAW2, Radar from Smarter Radar). GR.4 loaded out with 8x Mk83, 1x Sky Shadow ECM Pod (Defensive Jamming, no effect against AS Radar), and BOZ 107 Chaff and IR Flare Dispenser. The Radar Line of Sight for a small platform to an aircraft at VLow/NOE is 22nm. Still getting hung up on the cumulative effects of VLow/NOE Flight, Light Rain, and Land Mass Effects. In Smarter Radar, I see that the Type 42's Radar 965M (max air detection range 174nm) would be reduced to 10% of max air range, or 17.4nm. Smarter Radar shows no effect to the Tornado Nose Radar in Surface Search, vs the small Type 42; detection out to 51nm. In 4.2.5.4 Rain Effects, I see Light Rain reduces the pD by 10% and reduces the range by 25%. Does that reduce the Radar 965M to 4.35nm? Does it reduce the Tornado Nose Radar to 38.3nm? Since I still like to roll for detection it would be 80% for Tactical Turn Detection and 50% for Engagement Turn Detection. Would 4.2.5.2 Land Mass Effects then halve that to the Radar 965M to 2.2nm? I do not think the Land Mass Effects would effect the Tornado. Pete

I think is a representation of the "embedding" of the ship in the sea, radar must discriminate between the ship signal and the clutter effect of wawes and the continuos of the sea surface. The aircraft, on opposite, is a clear target flying, without entouring elements with clutter effect. Please see Page 1 of Smarter (and Simpler) Radar in Harpoon4, page one, column 1 bottom: "what we are changing" "First, we're changing the standard RCS sizes. We were overrating the signatures, and we're also (finally) recognizing that a large ship and a large aircraft do not have the same radar cross-section (Hint: ships are bigger - much bigger)....From now on, we'll calculate air search radar ranges using a standard air target. Surface search radar ranges will be calculated using the standard surface target." The previous RCS method was apparently too generic. Not any more. Fianlly the radar performance ratings in the High Tide Data Annex are the most up to date and are repeated in the Smarter Radar article for those not having High Tide...yet. I posted the link to the article on the clash of arms website in an earlier post to this thread.

Hi KC, Just a few answers/comments so far: First, are you using radar data from either High Tide Data Annex or the Smarter Radar article (data is one in the same). It is the most up to date compilation of radar and it takes into consideration the differing radar cross sections of, for example, both Large Ships and Large Aircraft. If you do not have High Tide, pull the smarter radar doc from here Smarter Radar Second: Which resource are you pulling the data for your Tornado and Hercules DD? I looked at the Tornado GR.4 from High Tide and its "Tornado Nose Radar". The "TNR" has both AI and SS/TF capabilities. In SS/TF it will detect a small surface platform at 51nm. 4.2.5.2 Land Mass Effect only effect, to my understanding of it, only surface radar that have a land mass on the radar "line of sight" of both the radar and the contact (i.e. radar -----> contact -----> land mass). Air Radar should not have that restriction. Rain would reduce the range by 25% and the pD by 10%. Tonado Nose Radar Range vs Small Surface Contact = 51nm *.75 = 38.25nm or just 38nm. You appear to correct with the max speed during NOE flight. More to follow tonight or over the next few days. Game On, Pete

4.5.6 Visibility Variations. An optional rule for giving some variety to the spotting distances. Looking forward to it. Pete

Correct!

The General Attack Table on Page 6-20 lists many if not all of the ground targets that one would find on or around an airfield. Lets take a crotale "platoon". Global Security states "A typical platoon consists of one Acquisition and Co-ordination Unit (ACU) and two to three firing units, with a battery having two platoons. The system cannot operate on the move, but takes less than 5 minutes to become operational once it has stopped." global security crotale. So that would be a 3-4 vehicles. I'd venture that per the General Attack Table each vehicle of this platoon would be APC/Mobile SAM Launcher; 5 Damage Points, Light Armor, Small Size, and Destroyed on a Critical Hit result. A High Tide F-15E is Medium/Medium and has among its sensors FLIR, LANTIRN Nav and Targeting Pod which provide terrain following radar and LRMTS, and up up 6x AGM-65 Maverick missiles. Lets say a pair of F-15E's are at 660kts (FMP) and Low Altitude. The Crotale has a 9.7nm detection range against a Large Target. That calculates to 6.1nm versus the medium size/signatured Strike Eagle. The AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN Navigational and Targeting Pod found in Annex G2 Electronic Air Ornance, see globalsecurity - LANTIRN. I'd venture a guess that it would be a 3rd Generation pod, much like the AAQ-13. FLIR (4.6), it can search for targets in a 12 degree field of view and track/classify in a 3 degree FOV. It has been explained to me that the sensor itself can slew around independent of the aircraft up to 270 degrees. As a 3rd Generation sensor it has an 80% chance to detect a small (Crotale) target at out to 8nm per Tactical Turn, a 50% chance per engagement turn. There can be some degradation due to rain/fog. You may want to take a look at one aircraft act as the spotter/designator and the other conduct the attack since the there is not much of an envelope between when the Crotale can detect versus when the F-15E's can detect. Another option to explore would be for the F-15's to fly above the Max Altitude (Medium) See here for some more discussion on taking down an air defense site and use of a bow-tie pattern for the designator.

4.5.2 Sighting From Aircraft to the Surface: Takes a little tweaking to pigeon hole ground units or installations 4.5.3 Seeing Aircraft form the Surface or Air 4.5.5 Effects of Weather and Light 4.5.6 Visiaiblity Variations 4.5.8 Identifying Visual Contacts 4.6 Infrared Sensors 4.6.2 Airborne Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) 4.8 Laser Sensors Then 6.3.5 Air Attacks on Land Targets 6.3.5.3 Attacks on Airfields 6.3.5.3.3 General Attacks (and the General Attack Table on Page 6-20) 6.4.1.2 Surface-to-Air Missiles

I'm still a 4.1 kinda guy.

While thinking through using the F-4 in place of the F-15C, I came across the West German F-4F. The next decision was use the pre or post Peace Rhine configuration. Peace Rhine enhancements provided for AIM-9L in place of AIM-9B, RWR and 2nd Generation Decoys. As the F-4F's APQ-120(v)5 still outclasses the Mirage IIIAE's Cyrano II Bis. AIM-9L's would probably replay the earlier mission, so I went with the pre-Peace Rhine upgrade. As it was, the Mirage IIIAE successfully used its RWR to detect the F-4F's active radar ((APQ-120(v)5) in its search mode. The Phantom's did not detect the intruding Mirages. At that point it increase its speed to FMP and increased its altitude into the Medium Altitude Band. The way the turns unfolded, the aircraft almost zipped past each other, entering into a dogfight and having each Mirage down a Phantom with a successful R.550 Magic AAM.

So considering the ROE element, since a Large aircraft at medium altitude or below is spotted, by another aircraft, at 5nm, small aircraft at 3nm, and vsmall at 1.5nm. I guess extrapolation leads us to 4nm for a medium sized aircraft at medium alititude or below. Let's say it is a clear day with unlimited visibility, a simple odd-even die roll gives me Air 100% Visibility and Sigma 4. The Sigma die roll is 6 so today the Mirages can spot the Eagles at 5nm and the Eagle spots the Mirages at 4nm. Disregarding Clouds (4.5.7) for now, the Eagles will have to still visually identify (4.5.8) the intruding Mirages. 4.5.8 says that in daylight, ...aircraft must be at Low Altitude, which the Mirages are. The identification range is 75% of the spotting range or 3nm. The Mirages, assuming that they are heading toward a known target area...an airfield, would have a 90% (tactical turns) or 60% (engagement turns)chance of detecting the Eagle's APG-63 (in search mode) at out to 155nm through its 1st (?) Generation RWR. A successful RWR (ESM) detection reveals the type of emitter, and its bearing from the detecting unit. Starting with 50nm separation, the first turn was a Tactical Turn, RWR rolls successfully detected both the APG-63 and Cyrano II bis. The turn ends with the Mirages just over 18nm from the CAP. The max range of their single R.530 is 10nm. 1306.0 The F-15C's go to FMP of 713kts (2.97nm per ET) on the bearing toward the bogies. Mirages go to FMP as well but remain at 625kts (2.6nm) due to altitude restraints while ordering an altitude climb into the Medium Altitude Band. Mirages do not want to lock-on to the F-15's given that their own R.530 SARH missiles are outranged by the F-15's AIM-7M SARH missiles. 31nm to their own 10nm. 1307.0 the aircraft are just over 2nm apart. The F-15's visually identify the Mirages as such, thus hostile. Assuming theat the Mirages are now in the Medium Altitude Band a Dogfight is declared (less than 5nm). Both aircraft are now at afterburner; Mirages @ 750kts, Eagles @ 810. Rolling for Attack Position(s) 1307.5. Narrow Shot (cannon fire) for both forces, Wide-Angle for the Mirages (R.550 Magic), and All-Apect for the F-15's (AIM-9L) Needing 30% for the cannons and 85% for the AIM-9L F-15 #1 rolls 44 (success), F-15 #2 rolls 10 (success), both Mirages, needing 35% for the R.550 fail their rolls with 53 and 79. Both missiles pass the missile failure roll and secure one hit. Mirage #1 shot down. 1308.0. Both F-15's again gain position while the Mirage does not (77, 27, 38 respectively). Both missiles pass the missile failure roll and secure one hit downing the surviving Mirage. I think that the Mirage IIIAE is completely outclassed by the F-15C. I'd like to try the same situation but swap out the F-15C for an F-4. Pete

Upon further review, since RLOS for a Medium platform to Low and VLow platform is 135 and 108nm respectively. The F-15C's APG-63 is a Look Down/Shoot Down capable AI radar and will detect the Small Mirages at 45nm, at either altitude band. To give the Mirages any relative chance in this scenario would be to impose some ROE on the F-15C's such as having to visually identify the intruding Mirages.

Set-Up: 2x F-15C (data from High Tide) are on CAP, at Medium Altitude and cruising at 493kts. 2x Mirage IIIEA (Data from SAW2) are at Low Altitude and cruising at 625kts. I would have to presume that the Mirages are being sent to a known point such as an airfield – reason for the CAP – so no huge need for AEW or GCE support although it would be nice. While Radar Line of Sight is 135nm for an observer at Low and a “target” at Medium, and vice-versa, the Mirage IIIEA’s CyranoIIbis radar (data from Smarter Radar article) will only detect a medium-sized F-15C at 16nm. Things get worse for the Mirages when you look at the performance of the F-15C’s APG-63’s performance against the small Mirages – detection at 45nm. With platforms at VLOW and Medium altitudes the RLOS is now 108nm, neither aircraft has ESM. So at about 50nm from the target area, the Mirages drop down to Very Low Altitude. Still traveling at 625nm calculates to 2.6nm per Engagement Turn Movement Phase, the Mirages must roll on the NOE Crash Table, an 8% chance of crash (Optional Pilot Quality 6.3.7 could modify that chance). 29.2nm from the target area Mirage #1 crashes into the ground, the pilot suffering “rapid decoration syndrome”. At 13.6nm Mirage #2 crashes into the ground. Any other suggested tactics? Time to re-set and try again. More to Follow.

KC, for what it's worth, I agree with you in that the final paragraph in 6.7 "...exact employment tactics are not necessary as it is assumed the countermeasures are used correctly." Also, on a tangent, what may be of interest to this discussion is 6.3.3.2.1 Evading Attack. May apply more to your ground attack scenario.

FD/FH Phantom. Ah the venerable FD/FH Phantom Note the open cockpit and dangling arrestor hook.

Sorry Ron...wrong coast.

A-7 Corsair II namesake of F-4U Corsair A-10 Thunderbolt II namesake of P-47 Thunderbolt Phantom II namesake of...

Iconic

Probably not, but since it already was the F-4 Phantom II, and the F-35 is the Lightning II, why not a Phantom III

Harpoon 3 paper rules arrived yesterday complete, unpunched, even a copy of the first "pilot" Naval Sitrep. It is amazing the variances in prices on ebay, after being outbid when I stopped at $51 last week, I got my complete game for under $20 including the shipping. Definitely looks like a somewhat simpler game to play/implement. I look forward to chiming in.

hehe, yeah, its hard to believe that 3rd Fleet, being the last in the series was published in 1990! Almost twenty years ago. Gulf Strike (first ed 1983) is set up in my cellar right now, stuck at turn 2 as I have not been able to get downstairs for any length of time in over a week now. As for Fleet, I have 6th, 2nd, and 5th. One of the guys at the club has 3rd and we have left it set up for some more Fleet-goodness two weeks from last night...wedding anniversary next Wednesday so I ought not (I am not) going to Game Night. The guys were gracious enough to not play until I get back there.

With my once weekly merry band of wargamers we started VG 3rd Fleet's World War III in the North Pacific...or something like that. Day 1 (three distinct turns), weather rolled as heavy storms right through, horizontally, the center of the map. Worse yet, that encompassed 95% of our collective surface and air assets. Surface ships limited to one hex movement in the wx zone, no planes can launch from airbases or carrier in wx zone, subs uneffected (planes launched elsewehre could fly over wx effected zones. Turn 2, weather clears but random event rolled caused a soviet (us) command failure. Zones randlomly effected encompass all of our coastal areas, thus again our airfields. CAP was permitted although restricted from reating to anything other than to attacks on the base they were launched from. In the meantime American B-52 and F-15E's destroyed on Soviet airbase way up north, and a carrier alpha strike damaged one of our island (can't remember the spelling although I could not even pronounce it last night) airbases after forcing our CAP down in exchange for three separate unsuccessful soviet sub launched SSM attacks on the american carrier, USS America IIRC. Uggh!

Break out your note-taking materials and make that pen change. Thanks Brad.

hehe, yeah 6.2.4, despite the heading of Resolving Antiship Missile Attacks, best answers the question: "For IR homing weapons, use the decoy column only." I think that it should be more of a Harpoon General Combat type of statement, there it is. 6.7.1 ...yeah...sort of. I'll dig out Sitrep 30 from my stash. As always, Thank you

Well an "ad-hoc council of war" (me and Brad on IRC and PG) has agreed that the F-15C, being fired at by an IRH missile, should not benefit from the additional 1.5 for its 3rd Generation Jammers. The differential should be 0.0 or 30%. A much fairer fight now, but who likes fair fights.