H4 questions i always wanted answers to

[kcdusk]

With the range of modern radars and air to air missiles increasing, does that mean that the days of aerial dog fights is over? Aircraft can often be directed to fire on a target outside radar range by an obervation plane (AWACS?), the missile dissappears over the horizon and might reach its target some 30, 40 or 60+ miles away. Just thinking aloud this probably will have a couple of impacts (no pun intended).

 

1. Aircraft wont even see each other in fighter engagements.

2. No "furball" fights, or old fashioned fighter skills of manourvering an aircraft

3. I'd think aircraft would still need to be "nimble", because if one of those long range missiles ever reached you, then you might end up "in a dog fight" with a missile rather than another aircraft.

[CV32]

With the range of modern radars and air to air missiles increasing, does that mean that the days of aerial dog fights is over? Aircraft can often be directed to fire on a target outside radar range by an obervation plane (AWACS?), the missile dissappears over the horizon and might reach its target some 30, 40 or 60+ miles away. Just thinking aloud this probably will have a couple of impacts (no pun intended).

1. Aircraft wont even see each other in fighter engagements.

2. No "furball" fights, or old fashioned fighter skills of manourvering an aircraft

3. I'd think aircraft would still need to be "nimble", because if one of those long range missiles ever reached you, then you might end up "in a dog fight" with a missile rather than another aircraft.

 

You appear to have answered many of your own questions.

 

In any event, I do not think it is necessarily a matter of the 'aerial dogfight' being a thing of the past, but that rather future dogfights will be different.

 

Think about the ramifications of stealth (or low observability) and high off boresight short range air to air missiles, for example.

 

(Query: Is this a H4 issue?)

[kcdusk]

(Query: Is this a H4 issue?)

 

 

No, probably not. It just occurred to me while i was playing out some jet on jet action that the medium range sparrows meant one side could fire at long range, before the 5nm dogfight rules kick in, and not be in danger. Then i remembered reading as a kid about the F-14 having the Phoenic missile and the range that had (40nm). I bet theres more modern stuff out there now with even longer range.

 

Good point re stealth though. That could close the range in.

 

Or in a confused environment, needing "visual" before being able to fire.

[Silent Hunter UK]

There is some modern Russian stuff with longer ranges than the Phoenix.

[kcdusk]

Hey guys. I've been gaming out some surface action with frigates and patrol boats, and have some up with some questions.

 

1. Critical hit to a ship calls for sensor damage. 7.3.2.11 Sensors says an operational sensor has been knocked out and can include a periscope if occuring to a submarine.

Do sensors include all radars and sonars? (I'd say yes)

Do sensors include ECM, RWR, ACM? (I dont know? But am leaning towards yes - they're a sensor right?)

 

 

2. Page A-45 Data Annex lists Project 1234 Nanuckka as having P-120 Malakhit. Looking the stats up at chapter D it has "N200" in the remarks, what does this mean? And at the top of the same page in D it lists NATA Sea Sparrow as "SSC" in the remarks. What does SSC mean? SS means surface skimmer so is SSC used in the same context, ie its SS and C which is "each director ... 4 targets with 2 missiles"?

 

 

3. OH Perry (A-27) the first weapon listed is a mk13 w/40 //1 Mk92. I cannot find this weapon in Chapter D. Any ideas?

 

 

Any help appreciated.

[CV32]

1. Critical hit to a ship calls for sensor damage. 7.3.2.11 Sensors says an operational sensor has been knocked out and can include a periscope if occuring to a submarine. Do sensors include all radars and sonars? (I'd say yes) Do sensors include ECM, RWR, ACM? (I dont know? But am leaning towards yes - they're a sensor right?)

 

I'd have to say yes to all sensors, including ECM, RWR. I am not sure what ACM means here? context?

 

2. Page A-45 Data Annex lists Project 1234 Nanuckka as having P-120 Malakhit. Looking the stats up at chapter D it has "N200" in the remarks, what does this mean?

 

200 kiloton nuclear warhead option.

 

And at the top of the same page in D it lists NATA Sea Sparrow as "SSC" in the remarks. What does SSC mean? SS means surface skimmer so is SSC used in the same context, ie its SS and C which is "each director ... 4 targets with 2 missiles"?

 

SSC=sea skimmer capable, i.e. the missile can shoot down sea skimmers.

 

3. OH Perry (A-27) the first weapon listed is a mk13 w/40 //1 Mk92. I cannot find this weapon in Chapter D. Any ideas?

 

Mk 13 GMLS guided missile launcher system) (aka the Perry's single rail missile launcher up front) with a 40 round magazine and controlled by a single Mk 92 fire control director.

[Silent Hunter UK]

SSC=sea skimmer capable, i.e. the missile can shoot down sea skimmers.

 

Not quite; any VLow capable AA weapon or SAM can, but at a severe ATA penalty. SSC weapons don't have the penalty (they have a bonus I believe).

[CV32]

Not quite; any VLow capable AA weapon or SAM can, but at a severe ATA penalty. SSC weapons don't have the penalty (they have a bonus I believe).

 

Heh, we've had this discussion before. Non-SSC (sea skimmer capable) missiles get a penalty of 4.0 added to the target's ATA. See rule 6.4.1.6. There is no bonus for SSC weaps, afaik. They simply get to employ their full capability against a sea skimming target.

[pmaidhof]

I'd have to say yes to all sensors, including ECM, RWR. I am not sure what ACM means here? context?

 

Active Counter Measures. As opposed to to Passive?

[pmaidhof]

I'd have to say yes to all sensors, including ECM, RWR. I am not sure what ACM means here? context?

 

Active Counter Measures. As opposed to to Passive?

 

Correction 6.7.7 Acoustic Countermeasures (ACM). H4.1 Page 6-35.

[kcdusk]

Question 1

4.3 ESM (electronic support measures) is a passive form of radar detection. I noticed some submarines have it listed as a sensor. Does this mean Submarines can use it to detect planes?

 

 

Question 2

ESM Detection appears on the Sonar Range Modifier page (4 - 11) with a +20% classification. Is this tied to the above question? Can submarines classify planes using ESM? I find it difficult to understand the +20% modifier if ESM is passive

 

 

Question 3

I'm having difficulty interpreting the 6.1.3 TMA lost contact table.

So if a contact is 2.0nm away and you loose contact for 1 turn, you start the TMA again? But if the target is at 18.0nm if you regain contact within 4 tactical turns you do not need to re-do TMA? This reads like the further away from a target you are the easier it is to re-establish the TMA without needing to start the process again which is the opposite to what i would have thought. Have i read it correctly? If not can anyone explain the logic?

[Silent Hunter UK]

Question 1

4.3 ESM (electronic support measures) is a passive form of radar detection. I noticed some submarines have it listed as a sensor. Does this mean Submarines can use it to detect planes?

 

 

Question 2

ESM Detection appears on the Sonar Range Modifier page (4 - 11) with a +20% classification. Is this tied to the above question? Can submarines classify planes using ESM? I find it difficult to understand the +20% modifier if ESM is passive

 

Yes, submarines can detect aircraft if at periscope depth and if said plane has active radar. You'll be able to get the type or emitter and should be able to narrow things down using that.

[HUD3]

Question 1

4.3 ESM (electronic support measures) is a passive form of radar detection. I noticed some submarines have it listed as a sensor. Does this mean Submarines can use it to detect planes?

 

Correct or anything with an emitting radar, even another submarine if within range.

 

Question 2

ESM Detection appears on the Sonar Range Modifier page (4 - 11) with a +20% classification. Is this tied to the above question? Can submarines classify planes using ESM? I find it difficult to understand the +20% modifier if ESM is passive

 

Yes it does as a "bonus" modifier. Both Passive Sonar and ESM provide bearing to target only. By having an extra set of bearing figures from an ESM contact as well as the bearing produced by the passive sonar fix, you receive an added 20% to your classification attempt. In short you know what it sounds like and what types of radar it's carrying.

 

Question 3

I'm having difficulty interpreting the 6.1.3 TMA lost contact table.

So if a contact is 2.0nm away and you loose contact for 1 turn, you start the TMA again? But if the target is at 18.0nm if you regain contact within 4 tactical turns you do not need to re-do TMA? This reads like the further away from a target you are the easier it is to re-establish the TMA without needing to start the process again which is the opposite to what i would have thought. Have i read it correctly? If not can anyone explain the logic?

 

Although it may not seem logical, it really is. At long ranges 20nm+ the bearing rate changes so slowly the contact can afford to be lost for a greater period of time before the TMA solution needs to be restarted. If a contact is at very short range, the bearing rate can change very quickly. The key factor is distance to target. The closer a target the faster the rate of bearing change relative to a more distant target is.

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[HUD3]

Here's an easier way of understanding the concept (I hope)

 

The Length of an Arc is equal to the degree change/360 x the circumference of the circle. (This is simplified for illustration).

 

A Circle's circumference is given by 2 x Pi x The square of the radius.

 

At 2nm the circle's circumference is equal to - 2 x 3.1415 x 4 or 25.13nm

 

At 20nm the circle's circumference is equal to - 2 x 3.1415 x 400 or 2513.27nm

 

Let's assume the sub contacts are both travelling at 5kts

 

The Arc Lengths for the contacts are given by:

 

2nm Contact: 5/360 x 25.13 = 0.3490nm

 

&

 

20nm Contact: 5/360 x 2513.27 = 34.91nm

 

The contacts have to individually travel a distance of either 0.3490nm/698yards (2nm Contact) or 34.91nm/69820yards (20nm contact) to cover the 5 degree bearing change.

 

At 5kts (10,000yards/hr) the subs cover 166.7yards/minute or 500yards per 3 minute turn.

 

Therefore the 2nm distant target takes, 1.396 Tactical turns (4.19 minutes) to cover 5 degrees of bearing change, while the 20nm distant target requires 139.64 tactical turns (almost 7 hours) to undergo a 5 degree bearing change.

 

In short the 2nm contact has a bearing rate change of 1.193 degrees a minute and the 20nm contact has a bearing change of 0.0119 degrees a minute. I hope that's a little clearer than mud?

 

Cheers

 

Darren

[VCDH]

You forgot Radians for mounts

 

Later

D