In scrolling through the DB, and after reading the Yugoslav AAR, my interest has piked again over HCCE's employment of ground units. I believe that I have seen indiviual tanks through brigades and divisions.

 

Since the maps are road and other specific terrain-less, do they simply move as "land-ships" that are prohibited from moving into the sea?

 

How about how they "fight" other ground units. Do they have an extremely short effective range, or must they be "in contact" with the opposing force?

 

How were the unit's damage points determined?

 

I'm sure that I'll have more questions and will post them later.

 

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Brad - please see below from tonight's chat. Comments?

 

21:59 <TonyE> T-72 is 5DP in HCDB

22:00 <pmaidhof> And a tank division would be 50x or so?

22:02 <TonyE> looks like Brad is making infantry divisions 3000-5000DP

22:04 *Brains returns after ingesting a HeartStopper Special from Subway.

22:05 <pmaidhof> 3-5000? When the USMC had M60A1's (roughly equivelent to a T-72 IMHO) there were 58 tanks in a tank battalion, that would be about 290 per Bn

22:05 <pmaidhof> Hey brains

22:07 *Brains waves.

22:08 <Brains> Why would single vehicles throw off the scale? I mean, a tomahawk wouldn't kill more than a couple tanks even if it was lucky while still delivering enough power to kill several tanks' worth of DP...

22:08 *Brains can see the number of tanks throwing off the simulation by sheer numbers though.

22:10 <pmaidhof> Brigade would = 3-5 battalions, lets say three tank and two mech. If a tank bn = 300, I'd argue that a mech bn be 225-250, so ~1,650 per brigade, so about 5,000 per tank division.

22:11 <TonyE> sorry, kinda walked away on phone there (work ya know).

22:11 <pmaidhof> Throw off scale in a way that a tank would only occupy a tiny, tiny, minute, point on a map. Guess that happens with just about all of the installations as well.

22:12 <pmaidhof> Guess 5,000 DP would be quite the infantry division.

22:12 <Brains> Aside from collision and display, shouldn't be any real issue with location, I think.

22:12 <TonyE> wish Brad could be here to comment, perhaps a post on the forum?

In scrolling through the DB, and after reading the Yugoslav AAR, my interest has piked again over HCCE's employment of ground units.  I believe that I have seen indiviual tanks through brigades and divisions. Since the maps are road and other specific terrain-less, do they simply move as "land-ships" that are prohibited from moving into the sea?

 

Yes, that's pretty much how they work. All mobile land units (MLU's) are found in the Ships Annex of the PE. You set courses for them just as you would with a ship. Tony can be more technical about the model.

 

How about how they "fight" other ground units.  Do they have an extremely short effective range, or must they be "in contact" with the opposing force?

Both, I suppose. The vehicles, for example, have the appropriate cannon and machine gun armament.

 

How were the unit's damage points determined?

 

By reference to both the H4/4.1 rules, which contain some limited DP data (I forget the exact page), and by comparison with the DP values assigned to typical anti-armor weapons like Hellfire.

Brad - please see below from tonight's chat.  Comments?

 

21:59 <TonyE> T-72 is 5DP in HCDB

22:00 <pmaidhof> And a tank division would be 50x or so?

22:02 <TonyE> looks like Brad is making infantry divisions 3000-5000DP

...

22:05 <pmaidhof> 3-5000?  When the USMC had M60A1's (roughly equivelent to a T-72 IMHO) there were 58 tanks in a tank battalion, that would be about 290 per Bn

...

22:08 <Brains> Why would single vehicles throw off the scale?  I mean, a tomahawk wouldn't kill more than a couple tanks even if it was lucky while still delivering enough power to kill several tanks' worth of DP...

22:08 *Brains can see the number of tanks throwing off the simulation by sheer numbers though.

22:10 <pmaidhof> Brigade would = 3-5 battalions, lets say three tank and two mech.  If a tank bn = 300, I'd argue that a mech bn be 225-250, so ~1,650 per brigade, so about 5,000 per tank division.

...

22:11 <pmaidhof> Throw off scale in a way that a tank would only occupy a tiny, tiny, minute, point on a map.  Guess that happens with just about all of the installations as well.

22:12 <pmaidhof> Guess 5,000 DP would be quite the infantry division.

22:12 <Brains> Aside from collision and display, shouldn't be any real issue with location, I think.

22:12 <TonyE> wish Brad could be here to comment, perhaps a post on the forum?

 

As I am sure you can imagine, its plenty difficult to model exactly the DP value of a typical ground forces formation, say a division. I'm not sure where the 3000-5000 DP value came from, but IIRC, it was Fred and I who decided where to start when we first had the opportunity to create them in an editable database. As always, I'm open to modifying the values, but there's much more to it than just adding up the number of tanks and getting a total value.

 

Consider, for example, the composition of the Soviet 79th Guards Tank Division, circa 1988, when it was based in the GDR with the GSFG:

 

3 x Tank Regiments, each with:

 

94 x T-80

43 x BMP-2

4 x 2S6

4 x SA-13

18 x 2S1

 

That's 282 tanks, 129 IFVs, 24 AA vehicles, and 54 self-propelled artillery pieces. Then add the following, from a component motor rifle regiment:

 

142 x BMP-2

40 x T-80

4 x 2S6

4 x SA-13

18 x 2S1

9 x BRDM-3

 

And the artillery regiment and SSM battalion:

 

48 x 2S3

18 x BM-21

4 x SS-21

 

And the air defense regiment:

 

20 x SA-15

21 x SA-7/-14/-16

 

And the reconnaissance and engineer elements:

 

6 x T-80

13 x BRDM-2

12 x BMP-2

3 x BRM

8 x TMM

6 x GSP

18 x PMP

12 x K-61

4 x BTM

2 x MTK

3 x GMZ

 

And a helicopter squadron:

 

6 x Mi-24 Hind

6 x Mi-8 Hip

6 x Mi-2 Hoplite

 

That's NOT counting a multitude of trucks and other support vehicles, and the soldiers themselves.

 

The 57th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, also in East Germany, comprised:

 

3 x motor rifle regiments, each with:

 

142 x BMP-2 (or 156 x BTR-80, for two of the three regiments)

40 x T-80

4 x 2S6 (or 4 x ZSU-23, for two of the three regiments)

4 x SA-13

18 x 2S1 (or 18 x D-30, for two of the three regiments)

9 x BRDM-3

 

Add a tank regiment, with:

 

94 x T-80

43 x BMP-2

4 x 2S6

4 x SA-13

18 x 2S1

 

And another tank battalion, with 51 x T-80, and an anti-tank battalion, with 12 x AT guns and 9 x BRDM-3. That's 265 tanks, nearly as many as the tank division above, plus from 497 IFVs or APCs (depending on type), nearly four times as many as that contained in the tank division. Then add:

 

An artillery regiment and SSM battalion, with:

 

72 x 2S3

18 x BM-21

4 x SS-21

 

And an air defense regiment:

 

20 x SA-15

21 x SA-7/-14/-16

 

And the reconnaissance and engineer elements:

 

6 x T-80

12 x BMP-2

13 x BRDM-2

3 x BRM

8 x TMM

6 x GSP

18 x PMP

12 x K-61

4 x BTM

2 x MTK

3 x GMZ

 

And the helicopter squadron, with:

 

6 x Mi-24 Hind

6 x Mi-8 Hip

6 x Mi-2 Hoplite

 

Again, that NOT counting the trucks, other vehicles, or soldiers.

 

The sheer scale of trying to model a division, whether tank or infantry, is huge. For argument's sake, let's assume it takes a single 500 lb GBU-12 (with 17 DP) to take out each individual vehicle represented here (not including trucks and such). Our example tank division contains 922 such targets, thus requiring 15,674 DP ! The infantry division has even more. That's not considering that the various elements of the division might be dug in, on the move, camouflaged, spread out, etc, etc. You see my problem ?

I can only begin appreciate the difficulties in developing a viable ground unit within the HCCE environment. I was only trying to get a better understanding of the methodology used. At first glance it seemed that an infantry division, which most if not all include tanks, was quite strong. In seeing that you have taken into account many of the items that you listed in the your example, my question is answered for the most part.

 

Thanks again.

How about how they "fight" other ground units.  Do they have an extremely short effective range, or must they be "in contact" with the opposing force?

 

Both, I suppose. The vehicles, for example, have the appropriate cannon and machine gun armament.

I do remember an early encounter between some ground units. I was trying to run them down and trying to engage with my tanks. Unfortunately, both the truck convoy that I was chasing and the Tank force that I was driving were capable of 30 knots. I chased them all over the Korean Peninsula and never caught them.

 

I think that this 'avoidance' behaviour has been changed since I played that scenario, but I cannot be certain.

Is there a way to restrict ground units movement by way of speed or waypoints?

 

Are units such as SEAL Teams and MEU's still considered ordnance or can the landing force actually be landed?

 

Thanks,

I do remember an early encounter between some ground units. I was trying to run them down and trying to engage with my tanks. Unfortunately, both the truck convoy that I was chasing and the Tank force that I was driving were capable of 30 knots. I chased them all over the Korean Peninsula and never caught them.

 

I think that this 'avoidance' behaviour has been changed since I played that scenario, but I cannot be certain.

True, they won't run quite like that anymore. Still it brings a chuckle to my mouth when I see a convoy doing 40mph over the Alps

Is there a way to restrict ground unit movement by speed or waypoints?

 

For example, I would like to keep company-battalion sized forces restricted on or close to an obviously imaginary roadway. Imaginary in the sense that no roads are depicted in HCCE maps. Setting a course, by waypoints would be an answer.

 

How about speed, can speed now be "governed" based upon the scenario designers "plan"?

 

The wheels are turning.

 

Pete

Yes, you can set ground units' waypoints and speed, just as you would with ships. Be advised, however, that AI behavior can vary depending on what the AI perceives as a threat, and it can be somewhat unpredictable.

Thanks Brad,

 

To confirm an earlier Land Unit discussion, there is no ability to transition a unit, such as a BLT/MEU from ship to shore,m thus introducing them as a Land Unit mid scenario?

 

Thanks again,

 

Pete

That's correct, and I expect there are no prospects of that particular shortcoming being resolved any time in future when it comes to HCCE.

"True, they won't run quite like that anymore."

 

The previous game engine had the AI's land units using the Sir Robin doctrine of "run away" (even T-72's running away from a truck convoy). I am going to run a test to see if b09 has that eliminated.

I just ran a test scenario. Red side was a T-72, Blue side was an LAV-25, plus an E-8 flying out of Valkenburgh for observation. Played the blue side. T-72 was programmed in the SE to proceed in the direction of the LAV-25. Once the T-72 apparently detected the LAV-25, it retreated. Sir Robin the Chicken Hearted still sets doctrine for AI land warfare.