Carrier escorts

[mike tango]

I have a question regarding the deployment of the escorts in a CVBG especially during the Cold War days of the mid eighties, just at the time the AEGIS system was becoming operational. The way I understand it a carrier would be escorted with a few air defence cruisers and destroyers as well as ASW orientated ships like the Spruance class and frigates. Now, when a carrier turned into the wind and for example had to steam at 30 knots to conduct flight operations, how did that impact the escorts especially the ASW ships? Did they run at that speed too to keep up with the carrier and to maintain station? My understanding is that it has a negative impact on their primary mission? And what about a SSN assigned as direct support to the CVBG?

 

My second question is based upon a scene from Red Storm Rising where a CVBG formed a Task Force with some amphibs. At one point the carrier turned into the wind to launch F-14's. Does that mean the rest of the Task Force was split off and the two groups maneuvered independently?

 

Anybody out there that can help? (BTW Red Storm Rising was the main factor that got me into naval gaming in the first place. Thanks TC.)

[pmaidhof]

Insightful questions Tango Mike. I hope some of the "squids" or other well read folks here can lend some of their experiences/knowledge.

 

Pete

[Silent Hunter UK]

I'm also interested in what the Soviets had with their CVG groups.

[CV32]

Now, when a carrier turned into the wind and for example had to steam at 30 knots to conduct flight operations, how did that impact the escorts especially the ASW ships? Did they run at that speed too to keep up with the carrier and to maintain station? My understanding is that it has a negative impact on their primary mission? And what about a SSN assigned as direct support to the CVBG?

 

Someone with first hand experience can probably answer this, but I would say that they do not strive to keep pace or absolutely maintain station with the carrier during such a high speed run. (Keeping in mind that some escorts, especially the nuclear powered ones, would be capable of doing a decent job of it).

 

Safety concerns and giving the carrier room to maneuver would be more important. And, all of that said, a carrier won't be heading into the wind at 30 knots for any longer than is necessary.

 

I would think the ASW escorts (especially the SSN) would definitely not be running at 30 knots during that period, but rather keeping ASW concerns in mind (because of the carrier's increased noise and vulnerability).

 

My second question is based upon a scene from Red Storm Rising where a CVBG formed a Task Force with some amphibs. At one point the carrier turned into the wind to launch F-14's. Does that mean the rest of the Task Force was split off and the two groups maneuvered independently?

 

I would think so, at least while flight operations were underway.

[CV32]

I'm also interested in what the Soviets had with their CVG groups.

 

With Soviet groups, the carrier was the escort.

[mike tango]

Thanks Brad, Pete.

 

I figured something like that but allow me to amplify my original question regarding the ASW escorts. Would there be some form of sanitising operation to confirm that no hostile subs are present on the carrier's projected course during flight operations? A sprinting carrier and close escorts seems like a juicy target...especially if the hostile does not need to try and play catch up.

[CV32]

A sprinting carrier and close escorts seems like a juicy target...especially if the hostile does not need to try and play catch up.

 

At first glance, I suppose it would. But I think it would be a difficult trap for a submarine to set up in practise.

 

For example, how would the submarine know which direction the wind was blowing and where exactly the carrier would be turning into the wind? Unless a sub was in pretty much exactly the right place at exactly the right moment, a 30 knot carrier is a rather difficult and fleeting target.

[Herman]

For example, how would the submarine know which direction the wind was blowing and where exactly the carrier would be turning into the wind? Unless a sub was in pretty much exactly the right place at exactly the right moment, a 30 knot carrier is a rather difficult and fleeting target.

He might be able to deduce the wind direction from tracking the path of the carrier during her sprints. Although he might not be able to take advantage of the data immediately, he could use it to plan a trap. As long as he doesn't reveal his presence, he could try and move to a position whereby the carrier would run over him. Even though wind directions are subject to change, I don't think that they would change that drastically over the span of a few hours.

[noxious]

For example, how would the submarine know which direction the wind was blowing and where exactly the carrier would be turning into the wind? Unless a sub was in pretty much exactly the right place at exactly the right moment, a 30 knot carrier is a rather difficult and fleeting target.

He might be able to deduce the wind direction from tracking the path of the carrier during her sprints. Although he might not be able to take advantage of the data immediately, he could use it to plan a trap. As long as he doesn't reveal his presence, he could try and move to a position whereby the carrier would run over him. Even though wind directions are subject to change, I don't think that they would change that drastically over the span of a few hours.

 

As far as flight ops are concerned (or small sailing vessels on the high seas), actually the wind is nearly always changing

There are dedicated crewmen tasked with that : it still relies on visual observation more than weather reports, as it's a very local wind situation, not necessarily the prevailing wind direction

The carrier sails along the wind's direction (forget the right english terms) not only to add airspeed to the launching a/c, but also to reduce the effects of swell on the relative horizon of the flight deck (up down when going along the wind, instead of port/starboard)

Very dynamic environment : landing helos or, much nuttier, planes on a carrier is literally a controlled crash, as you surely know.

The carrier/landing platform may have to correct course between each launch or trap.

Hence the need for the carrier to maneuver : if the situation didn't change fast enough, it wouldn't enter into tactical considerations, now would it Herman ?

[CV32]

He might be able to deduce the wind direction from tracking the path of the carrier during her sprints. Although he might not be able to take advantage of the data immediately, he could use it to plan a trap. As long as he doesn't reveal his presence, he could try and move to a position whereby the carrier would run over him. Even though wind directions are subject to change, I don't think that they would change that drastically over the span of a few hours. (CV32: Emphasis mine)

 

Okay, let's assume for the moment that your submarine is able to detect what you think is maybe a carrier during a sprint. At what distance do you think you can do that? If you're not in a position to attack at that very moment, he's probably 25 nautical miles away or more. I'm thinking, for example, half the maximum range of the Soviet Type 65-76 wake homer, which it can only achieve at 30 knots. No sub captain shooting a 30 knot torpedo at a 30 knot target from 25 nm away is betting on a kill, right?. (Much closer than that and the submarine is already inside the carrier formation, so a chance at the big prize is more luck of the draw than anything, I suppose. The carrier may sprint in your direction if you're real lucky.)

 

But lets assume that at 25 nm distance your sub is gathering enough passive sonar info to build a TMA solution of the identity, speed, and most importantly, for our purposes, the general course of the carrier when she is sprinting. That's pretty good info, but we'll run with it.

 

Now your assumption that you can use that contact info to lay a trap (or that he can put himself to hear or intercept the next sprint without detection) is a pretty big leap.

 

We've assumed you were in a position to detect the first sprint (the first you can hear, anyway), but when the sprint ends and the contact fades, where is the carrier heading now? Are you going to even be in a position to hear the next sprint? The carrier's course may take her directly away from your sub. It would be major stroke of luck to be in a position to guess the carrier's intended course (her destination) from observing a number of her wind sprints. If she is heading away, or even anywhere but in your general direction, your submarine will need to be sprinting itself just to stay in a position where it can get a sonar contact, let alone put itself ahead of the carrier and in a position to take a shot.

 

As for wind directions and their ability to change rapidly, I think perhaps you've never spent much time living next to an ocean.

[mike tango]

I think you all made valid points here and I appreciate the response. Seeing that I see this as a Cold War possible WW3 scenario in the mid eighties, that lurking sub might be a Charlie...

[Herman]

Wind direction does change. I would bet that it might change 5-10 degrees to either side of the projected course during a launch/landing evolution. But it is illogical to suggest that the wind direction might change as much as 180 degrees within an hour-long cycle. If so, there could have been no Age of Sail since ships would have been idle in the whirling tornado/waterspout-like wind tunnels. There would be no point in the exercise of 'turning into the wind' at all. According to that logic, carrier captains may as well sail wherever they please since any headwind might just as easily reverse direction on them.

 

Sure, wind direction can change 180 degrees. However, if it changed as drastically as suggested, planes would probably be falling into the sea much more often if their 20kt headwind over the bows suddenly turned into a 20kt tail wind resulting in a net loss of 40kts of airflow.

[CV32]

Wind direction does change. I would bet that it might change 5-10 degrees to either side of the projected course during a launch/landing evolution. But it is illogical to suggest that the wind direction might change as much as 180 degrees within an hour-long cycle. If so, there could have been no Age of Sail since ships would have been idle in the whirling tornado/waterspout-like wind tunnels. There would be no point in the exercise of 'turning into the wind' at all. According to that logic, carrier captains may as well sail wherever they please since any headwind might just as easily reverse direction on them. Sure, wind direction can change 180 degrees. However, if it changed as drastically as suggested, planes would probably be falling into the sea much more often if their 20kt headwind over the bows suddenly turned into a 20kt tail wind resulting in a net loss of 40kts of airflow.

 

Hehe, a little dramatic, don't you think? I don't think anyone was suggesting that wind changes happen instantly and are typified by "whirling tornado/waterspout-like wind tunnels".

 

Rather, the point is that they are probably not predictable enough to provide a rock solid foundation for predicting exactly where the carrier will be at the end of that hour long launch and recovery cycle.

 

Even, with a 5 to 10 degree bearing change, as you've stated, just consider where the carrier will be at the end of its 30 knot sprint. Teleportation might be a useful tool for that sub commander.

[Fulton Pollywog]

Wind does change. yes. But it depends where you are, and what speed the wind is at.

If you are in the IO in Monsoon season, once pointed into the wind you can plod along at 5 - 10 knots and the carrier gets the needed 30 knots of wind across the deck, and the changes are insignificant. Th BG commander will have the TF in sectors/screen assigned just like our game, so the OOD has some libery on his course and speed, not tied to a particular point. Yes heading into the wind and swells minized the vessel pitching. Now the CV typically turning around at meal times typically made the FF/DD crew real angry over experiencing that turn during meal hours.

 

Now, if you have NO natural wind, year the wind shifts. I have heard an seen a plot on a near dead wind day, and desire for the wind 10 degrees off head (down the angle deck) the CV, over X hours they made a massive (like 320 mile diameter) circle track. That neat for CV probably stayed within its BG mod lock requirement. In opposite case above dictated heading opposite direction when NOT not at flight OPs. In this case, I have NO idea what the screen setup was like for rest of BG- If locked in relation to the CV or to a mod lock point and wider- out of the carriers path area.

[noxious]

Wind direction does change. I would bet that it might change 5-10 degrees to either side of the projected course during a launch/landing evolution. But it is illogical to suggest that the wind direction might change as much as 180 degrees within an hour-long cycle. If so, there could have been no Age of Sail since ships would have been idle in the whirling tornado/waterspout-like wind tunnels. There would be no point in the exercise of 'turning into the wind' at all. According to that logic, carrier captains may as well sail wherever they please since any headwind might just as easily reverse direction on them.

 

Sure, wind direction can change 180 degrees. However, if it changed as drastically as suggested, planes would probably be falling into the sea much more often if their 20kt headwind over the bows suddenly turned into a 20kt tail wind resulting in a net loss of 40kts of airflow.

 

A 5-10 sudden change is enough to transform a trap into a real crash.

Most of the age of sails fighting and manoeuvres were done in what we would call a brown/green environment nowadays.

Not blue water fighting, for obvious reasons (armadas sailing the ocean tended to arrive in little groups, if at all)

 

I don't live by the ocean, but live on an island in the middle of a gigantic river : I tell you the winds in the Old Port or along Notre Dame street along the Port change like crazy, sometimes instantly.

 

I've done both my share of sailing on water and in the air (gliders), as well as small prop planes, and you're really underestimating wind