Hello

For passive detection, as one does know only the direction, how to fix the enable point? If it is fixed too quickly or too far, the torpedo can turn in round, too far from its target.

Hello

For passive detection, as one does know only the direction, how to fix the enable point? If it is fixed too quickly or too far, the torpedo can turn in round, too far from its target.

 

Hi David,

 

Good question. I'd like to hear the answer for someone a little more familiar with information on torpedoes. Especially since it seems to be the preferred method of operation of a modern sub attack. I think you may be experiencing one of the drawbacks of a passive-only detection. Maybe launching it as a "straight runner" would be best/only chance, as you mention you only have a direction. There's got to be a better way. Have you already established a satisfactory Target Motion Analysis?

 

I hope someone chimes in on your "setting the enabling point question".

 

Pete

Hello

For passive detection, as one does know only the direction, how to fix the enable point? If it is fixed too quickly or too far, the torpedo can turn in round, too far from its target.

 

Hi David,

 

Good question. I'd like to hear the answer for someone a little more familiar with information on torpedoes. Especially since it seems to be the preferred method of operation of a modern sub attack. I think you may be experiencing one of the drawbacks of a passive-only detection. Maybe launching it as a "straight runner" would be best/only chance, as you mention you only have a direction. There's got to be a better way. Have you already established a satisfactory Target Motion Analysis?

 

I hope someone chimes in on your "setting the enabling point question".

 

Pete

 

 

Target Motion Analysis gives a modifier to hit but it does not give the position of the target, nor its speed or its course. Does one have to pass to engagement turn to determine the direction of the target each time and thus to reorientate the guided torpedo ?

Target Motion Analysis gives a modifier to hit but it does not give the position of the target, nor its speed or its course. Does one have to pass to engagement turn to determine the direction of the target each time and thus to reorientate the guided torpedo ?

 

Hi David, I posted a modified form of your question over on AdmiraltyTrilogy Yahoo group and received a response from Dave Schueler on how he handles your described situation - I sure that he would not mind sharing it for the good of the community.

 

"I've placed my answers after your questions below:

 

> Assuming that the target has been tracked long and successfully enough for the shooter to have a good/fair TMA Solution,

> and a submarine commander deciding to attack the target with "modern" guided torpedoes. Is the player required to

> declare an enabling point, basically a SWAG, or can he fire the "guided" torpedoes in a spread as "straight runners"?

 

For good solutions I usually let the player just plot 'Intercept' and move the torpedoes toward the target. You could extend that to fair solutions too. But for poor and BOL shots, I usually make the player give the torpedo a specific course.

 

I do ask for an enabling point, since the player should have an idea of how far away the target is and the target may move inside the enable range.

 

You could fire a spread of guided torpedoes to give a better chance of hitting the target and I think that a lot of players do that, putting some overlap between the torpedo shots.

 

> Is there such a thing as a Torpedo BOL? It seems like quite a crap shoot, although wasn't this type of passive detection

> and engagement not unheard of in previous conflicts involving submarine attacks?

 

You can fire a torpedo BOL, as is shown by the modifier on the TMA solution chart. This is often what is done as a 'snapshot' down the bearing of an incoming torpedo by submarines and surface ships.

 

With a straight-running torpedo spread, I would use a plotting mechanism similar to what I described in the previous question, where the player would plot 'intercept' for the spread for good/fair solutions and have them plot a course for poor/BOL shots.

 

I hope that helps out."

Hello

Thank you for your step.

I have a suggestion. I think that passive detection nevertheless makes it possible to have more information than the simple direction. Thus why not have more information on the contact according to Passive Sonar Classification and Target Motion Analysis. For example, that could give the following table.

 

TMA NA: Target Motion Analysis Not Allowed then no shoot

 

It will be easier, according to data's, to fix the enable point. What do you think about it?

Classeur1.xls

Hi David,

 

There is already the Passive Sonar Classification process. See 4.4.8. Depending upon your classification roll, and in addition to the target bearing, it is possible through classification to narrow down your target to whether the target is Ship/Sub, Ship/Sub/Propulsion type/Nationality, Ship/Sub/Torpedo, or No Data.

Hi David,

 

There is already the Passive Sonar Classification process. See 4.4.8. Depending upon your classification roll, and in addition to the target bearing, it is possible through classification to narrow down your target to whether the target is Ship/Sub, Ship/Sub/Propulsion type/Nationality, Ship/Sub/Torpedo, or No Data.

 

Hello

I was badly explained. Could the cross result of classification 4.4.8 with the result of the TMA give information (other that direction) like speed, the course or even the position ?

Could the cross result of classification 4.4.8 with the result of the TMA give information (other that direction) like speed, the course or even the position ?

Hi David,

Rules are always open to interpretation. The classifications that I listed yesterday are what I believe to be the extent that the rules allow for. On the other side of the coin, I could see where careful analysis of the provide more information. I suppose that if crew could match the sounds to a particular type of ship, they could extrapolate the speed and a relative distance. I have no idea if it would be enough for a fire control solution.

 

I'd play it your way and see if the results are believable? Are you playing again someone or solo? I game mostly solo, so if I can agree with a result as believable, I go with it. There's no harm.

Are you playing again someone or solo?

 

Currently solo but I hope later to play by email when I control the rules well.

With passive sonar, you know a contacts direction but not distance. Also with passive, you can attempt to classify the target. So now you have a known direction and type of contact.

 

The original question was along hte lines of "how do you fix the enable point of a torpedo?". Good question, one i didnt know the answer to when i did my first sub v sub write up. But maybe now i can add something.

 

If we know direction but not distance, we can fire a torpedo (using whatever our TMA is). You'd have a rough estimate of distance to target because passive detection ranges are pretty short. So we know the distance is between "0.1nm and maybe 7nm" for example. Why wouldnt you fix the enable point at say 1.0nm, which in my mind means the trop switches from passive to "active" and starts looking for a target. SO as long as the contact is more than 1.0nm away, the torp goes active and tracks it down.

 

I'd have to get my books out to quote rules that might apply, but is my thinking correct? The only way this doenst work is if the contact is closer than 1.0 nm. And if you register a miss, you dont know if the torpedo missed or the contact was closer than 1.0 nm and the torp went active too late.

 

thoughts?

I believe that the riddle within this situation is that as soon as the seeker goes active, it can be detected by the target who can in turn take evasive action and/or counter measures. It goes back to having a well developed TMA solution and setting the EP so tha tit gives minimal chance of the target to take any action with the time for it to be effective.

 

Just my thoughts, but hey, I was infantry.

I believe that the riddle within this situation is that as soon as the seeker goes active, it can be detected by the target who can in turn take evasive action and/or counter measures. It goes back to having a well developed TMA solution and setting the EP so tha tit gives minimal chance of the target to take any action with the time for it to be effective.

 

Right on Pete. Some torpedoes are also going to be limited in available search patterns once they go active. If you say go active at 1nm activation may be soon followed by a descending circular pattern so the torp would never reach the target. You certainly mention the danger of the target detecting the torpedo's active sensor. I wonder how important that is if chances are good that he hears the torp's high speed propulsion anyway. In the end I expect activation point comes down to how confident you are in your TMA and balancing all of the other risks and rewards of each activation point.

 

I also think we could really use one of the Real Life ASW people to speak up and set us straight.

I also think we could really use one of the Real Life ASW people to speak up and set us straight.

 

Here, Here.

With passive sonar, you know a contacts direction but not distance. Also with passive, you can attempt to classify the target. So now you have a known direction and type of contact.

 

With basic TMA it isn't difficult (assuming the contact isn't changing course and speed) to establish a pretty accurate idea of the targets distance. It's also often possibly to quickly determine a targets speed from the sounds generated by the screw.

Additionally you wouldn't want to set your fish to enable at 0.1 NM through to 7NM...for starters the active head on the fish is not likely to even see the target should it be 7NM out (14,000 yards!)

 

Also i beleive that most types execute a snake or circle pattern once they enable, this is going to reduce the endurance of the torpedo if it starts snaking shortly after it leaves the tube.

 

Other reasons for setting a good run to enable is to protect other targets in the area, although I beleive floors and ceilings are also good for protecting surface shipping.

 

You don't want your fish going active too soon and potentially acquiring the wrong target...also you can predict that the target contact is going to turn tail, drop a few counter measures and run, RUN RUN.....if you enable too soon there's a good chance your going to acquire those countermeasures, if you don't enable until after where the countermeasures will be deployed then it's going to elminate any chance of being fooled by them.