kneecaps

It's probably worth me pointing out I don't actually have Harpoon 4 (don't want anybody thinking I couldn't be bothered to lookup the rule) . Looks like fun though. I'll certainly get it if I can find it at a reasonable price.

It is 4.4.2.4 Bearing Ambiguity and Towed Array Stabilization (Optional Rule) Also of note, the Akula being at Intermediate II depth puts it below the Layer/Thermocline. See 4.4.4.1, but essentially if the layer is between the sonar and the target, whether active or passive, the sonar range is halved. There is an exception when the scenario sea state is 5 or higher, the roughness of the seas prevent the layer from forming. Bearing Ambiguity only requires a turn (of the array) to eliminate...once the false bearing will develop a very high line of sight rate. I don't know how the rules deal with it.

GIUK 5.0 is all about the "surge" of Soviet submarines through the Greenland-Iceland-UK (GIUK) Gap. Your Orions and Nimrods are great tools for nipping that surge in the bud. Keflavik is already fairly well placed to put some Orions on formation patrols that will cover large parts of the Gap. You will probably only a need a few more aircraft - including Orions from Keflavik and Nimrods from the UK - operating outside the formation in order to achieve very good coverage. Set courses for these "independent" aircraft that will pass back and forth over a certain piece of real estate in the Gap. You can tap the 'drop sonobuoy' key to manually lay sonobuoy fields, and if nothing else, you're getting MAD and radar coverage. You can also expand the zone sizes at Kinloss (UK) so that you can use formation patrols to get better coverage of the gap between the Faeroes and the Shetlands. Thanks! Great advice, I'll get started tomorrow.

Thanks, I guess thats the only way. It's a waste really, the Orion and Nimrod are great search platforms of the own, I think automated search/patrol patterns are top of my wishlist now

Awww....GIUK 5.0. I have nearly 30 long range ASW aircraft at my disposal.... Somewhat difficult to micromanage! Any suggestions?

I think a Perry at a greater distance than this would be able to classify an Akula, Perry's have great towed arrays! Also, you don't NEED to classify it. Intel would tell you if you had friendly sub in the water. Shoot a fish down his bearing, watch him turn and run. ) I really enjoy these paper rules AARs.

Happens with a very large area of uncertainty. The default activation range is set to a shorter distance than is wise. You can say that again! It's especially amusing as the Sunburn was heading towards a Norweigian patrol boat, the sunburn wasn't even worth wasting on the patrol boat, the net effect was killing the Kirvak AND saving the patrol boat Additionally (slightly of this particular topic), I was able to take out the whole group (Sovremenny, Udaloy, Kresta, Kashin, 2 x Nanchukas) with harpoons launched from a OHP, Knox and Spruance + 2 x Orions. This didn't quite do it so I had a flight of 5 F-16s loitering nearby, they swooped in and rained fire with their Mavericks. I don't know if it was the earlier harpoon attacks (damaging radars and mounts?) or the jammers on the Falcons but the Sovremenny and Udaloy didn't muster any kind of effective AA response.

If I hadn't just sent the rest of the group down to Davy Jones locker, that skipper would have had some explaining to do However, surely it's a total rookie mistake to set to activation range to within your formation ))

I'm currently playing GIUK 4.0. So Trondheim detects a number of missiles in the air from a Russian surface group (I know where it is rougly due to air recon). I also know there is a Kirvak pretty far ahead of the main body. Next thing I see the Kirvaks point defences shooting down a Sunburn. The next Sunburn hits the Kirvak sinking it. Presumably it works a little like the Harpoon? It's activated too soon and guided in on ther first ship its found! Very amusing!

Glad you like it. I hadn't really intended to introduce a scenario for this discussion, as it really just focuses on the functional aspects of the formation editor in the SE/GE and why it is set up that way. We'll start introducing scenarios with the discussion on ASW, the first part of which has been posted here. Thanks, for the reply, i'll move onto the ASW one in that case! Great stuff.

Long range patrol missions do not currently have the ability to conduct their own independent ASW searches. So you have to set up a search yourself and micro manage it. If you look at the Wish Lists sub forum, you'll notice that this issue is at the top of just about everyone's wish list. Thanks for pointing this out! I did put one of the PC3s in a patrol formation with it's airbase and it does a helicopter like random bouy drop.

I launch an Orion and tell it where to patrol. It's sitting loitering, rather than patrolling. Shouldn't it be dropping bouys? Am I going to have to put it in formation with the airbase to get it to do that?

This is EXCELLENT!!!! It really is Tactics 101! Is there a scenario file for this so we can play about with what your describing? Thanks! Pete

Additionally you wouldn't want to set your fish to enable at 0.1 NM through to 7NM...for starters the active head on the fish is not likely to even see the target should it be 7NM out (14,000 yards!) Also i beleive that most types execute a snake or circle pattern once they enable, this is going to reduce the endurance of the torpedo if it starts snaking shortly after it leaves the tube. Other reasons for setting a good run to enable is to protect other targets in the area, although I beleive floors and ceilings are also good for protecting surface shipping. You don't want your fish going active too soon and potentially acquiring the wrong target...also you can predict that the target contact is going to turn tail, drop a few counter measures and run, RUN RUN.....if you enable too soon there's a good chance your going to acquire those countermeasures, if you don't enable until after where the countermeasures will be deployed then it's going to elminate any chance of being fooled by them.

With basic TMA it isn't difficult (assuming the contact isn't changing course and speed) to establish a pretty accurate idea of the targets distance. It's also often possibly to quickly determine a targets speed from the sounds generated by the screw.

Thanks once more!

Well I'll help if I can! I'm certainly no expert on the Naval side of things, my personal experience is infantry (British Army). My PC simulating over the years has centred around land operations at various levels (from small unit level ie Close Combat , SPMBT , Airborne Assault, through to the Operational Art of War). So I'm no stranger to military thinking and the 'way of doing things' but specfically how things are done at the Naval theatre level are new to me. I've played Sub Command and Dangerous Waters for a few years also. So if you think I can help I'm willing to contribute.

Sounds as though you'd like to see a mixture of fundamentals discussion/tutorials and scenarios based on those lessons? I'm not opposed to that approach because I think there's value in having a source or guide to fundamentals that one can keep referring to (such as that attempted with the Tactics 101 posts). The scenario would then build on that. I'm assuming that you've read or at least perused the HCE manual in this regard? Yes I've read the manual front to back, however it covers almost nothing with regards to tactics. It does a fine job of explaining all the options of the game but it's not even a introduction to tactics. The intro walkthrough scenario really serves to show you which buttons to press and how to do things...not why, when and how you should be doing them. The Tactics 101 posts are along the lines I'd like to see. Fundamentals illustrated with scenarios, then these fundamentals can be built on and more advanced concepts brough into play.

I've tended to have as many helos up as possible to give the best sonobouy coverage. I wasn't able to detect any subs at 5kts with the towed arrays on the OHP or Type 22 despite creeping for the entire scenario. Once I detected a sub contact I vectored whatever helos were up towards them. I tracked them by manually dropping bouys until further helos had a chance to re-arm, then I finished the contact off. Any recommendation to how better utilise the helos? Is one helo able to effectively cover the area?

This is a great idea. As a newcomer I'd personally opt for something which teaches fundamentals which can then be applied to training scenarios. The problem is the scope of what to cover is so large, some initial areas of focus would probably have to be settled on. Maybe the first thing that should be covered is the basic composition of various taskforces/SAG etc etc and how to utilise the platforms in those groups. Then on to how to ensure some basic security for your task force. I think the most challenging aspect to completing objectives is protecting your own assets.

Wow...Harpoon 4 paper rules sounds really fun! (do you need a board, or hex paper or something like that?) Wouldn't an F-15 have been visually sighted/heard by the Tarantul? If I see an F-15 coming i'm reaching straight for the nearest MANPAD to at least take a pot-shot! I imagine an LGB to be a decent option against a large ship, but Mavericks are certainly the way to go for a small mobile target.

Success! I patrolled both surface groups emphasis on keeping the OHP and Type 22 well ahead of the main body. Crept at 5 knots. Detected a Victor III fairly quickly via Sonobuoy. Launched two fish from the detecting Seahawk, 1 hit. I spend the next hour or so tracking him by dropping sonobouys along his path, while waiting for 2 helos to re arm. As soon as they did I dispatched them and dropped 4 more fish right on top of him. Game over for him. Detected a Sierra class some hours later and hunted him down in the same fashion. Again a chance sonobouy hit. All quiet for around 10 hours then I got a SOSUS hit on a Kilo, the British taskforce was around 60 NM away at the time so I vectored a pair of Lynxs' to intercept. The started dropping bouys across the contact area (although both helos dropped bouys very near eachother..hopefully in the future you could select a box or a line type search pattern...personally I would have lay a line of bouys ahead of where the sub was observed to be heading..no matter). In the course of this a bouy picked up a Foxtrot, the dropping Lynx dropped two Stingrays and got him! Minimum conditions met, kept seaching until the end of the scenario with no further contacts. I think the key was creeping...I was making a lot of noise at 18kts and attracting a lot of attention from Type 65s'! I didn't once detect a contact with the towed arrays on the OHP or Type 22...however observing that the subs were usually going 5kts when detected by sonobouy i'm not surprised. I don't think a 30 - 60 NM contact on a SSN is realistic via towed array when he's creeping. Thanks for the help!

Actually, I've named the topic half wrong. The Mission is GIUK 3.0 Small NATO ASW Sortie, sorry for any confusion. In 3.0 I have to sink at least three subs and damage others. All the advice so far is certainly applicable though!

Don't give up! Staying under 20 kt means you get "some" passive sonar performance. But its far from optimum at that speed. Are you creeping (5 kt or less) at all? Ah! This is where I'm falling down. It's obvious to me that in reality towed perfomance is not going to be much good at 18 kts....however since the OPORD said stay under 20 I'm thinking thats it...under 20 full performance..over 20...no perfomance. I think I should assume everything functions like it would in reality! I'm going to try this scenario in the morning and creep along the patrol routes. I suppose patrolling at 18 kts is rendering my arrays deaf but providing a nice noisy target for the Akula, Sierra and Kilos...doh! Thanks for the tips...I'm going to stick with this mission until I beat it!

I'm going to move on from this one. I'm now consistently getting greeted by a torpedo in the water. It seems the Type 22 passive array isn't helping me too much! How on earth are subs getting into torpedo range without me detecting? I'm only getting chance sonobouy hits every now and then, never anything on the OHP or type 22 passive. I'm staying around 18 knots (under 20 knots per scenario instructions).