Thanks, Brad, for doing that. I do understand that setting up that situation takes far more than just a couple of mouse clicks.

 

Obviously I asked you to do it because that's the effect I recall.

 

It looks like it gets more complicated the further you dig.

 

My experience has been that airplanes never get to launch their weapons at ships at maximum range. I always assumed that it had something to do with target motion; that it would depend on which way (and how fast) the target was moving. That is, the GE would simply not let you fire if the target would, at its present course and speed (velocity), run the missile out of fuel. Now it appears that this assumption is incorrect.

 

My experience is also that the Lynx would not in general survive closing to 7 nm from the Nanuchka unless I first diverted the Geckos.

 

My experience is anecdotal. It is not a scientific study. That would require either deconstructing the game code or running a whole bunch of controlled experiments to get a good statistical analysis of the behaviour.

 

The other interesting thing here is:

 

If I understand this last experiment correctly, then the Geckos never fired, either at the Lynx or the Sea Skuas, one of which was shot down by point defence. In real life, this would be explained by the SA-N-4 arc being forward. In RL, wouldn't the ship turn to bring them to bear? Would it have time?

 

Does Harpoon actually restrict SAM fire by RL arcs? Last time I remember this being discussed, I recall that the answer was no.

 

Could it be that the Nanuchka never detected the Lynx or Sea Skua? (unlikely) Or that, perversely, it decided that they weren't a threat? (likely) Sometimes weapons get saved for a rainy day, even when the hailstorm is happening right now.

 

Maybe I will actually run a whole bunch of tests on this, but it would be nice to have a definite answer to the weapons arcs question first.

My experience has been that airplanes never get to launch their weapons at ships at maximum range ... My experience is also that the Lynx would not in general survive closing to 7 nm from the Nanuchka unless I first diverted the Geckos. My experience is anecdotal.

 

I think you need more experience.

 

If I understand this last experiment correctly, then the Geckos never fired, either at the Lynx or the Sea Skuas, one of which was shot down by point defence.

 

SA-N-4 did not fire in area defense. The Sea Skua shot down by the point defenses may have been engaged by SA-N-4 or guns. I didn't think to check.

 

In real life, this would be explained by the SA-N-4 arc being forward. In RL, wouldn't the ship turn to bring them to bear? Would it have time?

 

One could use the Harpoon 4 paper rules to calculate whether the Nanuchka might have had time to turn and bring the SA-N-4 launcher to bear. This particular Nanuchka was tooling along at 5 knots, so it would have little opportunity to turn rapidly even if it were so inclined (from a RL perspective).

 

Does Harpoon actually restrict SAM fire by RL arcs? Last time I remember this being discussed, I recall that the answer was no.

 

Area air defence via missile is not restricted by arcs (yet). Point defence (via both missile and gun) is so restricted.

 

Could it be that the Nanuchka never detected the Lynx or Sea Skua? (unlikely) Or that, perversely, it decided that they weren't a threat? (likely)

 

I purposely ran the Lynx at Medium altitude and energized its radar well before reaching launch range. The Nanuchka responded by energizing its own radars. It also engaged in point defense. It 'knew' the helo and missiles were coming, but maybe not the missiles until it was too late. One could run all the logging tools and gather more info, I suppose.

 

Maybe I will actually run a whole bunch of tests on this, but it would be nice to have a definite answer to the weapons arcs question first.

 

Go for it.

OK, If I understand correctly, we can legally put the demo on as many machines as we can get our hands on, and compare results... and it won't risk fouling the HUE installation?

Correct

 

...

 

Good questions

OK, we had a bit of "fun" resurrecting an old XP computer for testing use, but after some rather extensive horsing around, it appears to be alive and well now, and we're about ready to try installing Harpoon on it. Before proceeding, I just wanted to check a few things - to avoid any potential SNAFUs in regards to getting accurate behavior:

 

1. I think this old machine had some verison of Harpoon on it previously, although it's not showing in the Add/Remove programs list. Is there any "clean-up" that we'd be wise to do before installing HUE and HCE Demo - to be sure there are no problems with "residuals", conflicts, or whatever? Or any general clean-up or "preventive maintenance" that may be wise to do first? If so, what?

 

2. Are there any minimum system requirements that may be an issue for HUE's HCE or the HCE demos?

 

3. Does it make any difference whether we install the HCE part of HUE, or the Demo, first? If so, then which should be put in first?

 

4. If I recall correctly, when I first started using the Demo version, it had a sequence of installers early on, where updates built upon pre-existing installations of earlier versions. I went through that process, and that raises a couple of questions:

First, is any part of that sequence of installers still required? If so, what?

Second, if the sequence is no longer required, is there any reason to believe that I might not get an apples-to-apples comparison between the new "single" installation, and my other installation that involved a progression of earlier versions? (If so, do you have any advice as far as how to get it set up properly for valid comparisons between machines?)

 

5. Are there any special considerations to avoid conflicts between working directories and files for HCE and HCE Demo - or will the default installation locations handle all that without overlap or conflict?

 

6. Is there anything else that I'll need to be careful of?

 

Just wanting to plan ahead to minimize problems and maximize usefulness/validity...

 

My plan is to install HCE Demo 2009.050, in order to compare directly against my primary Demo installation. then after seeing how that compares, I'll update to 052.

You are running XP so you're good to go system-wise. No clean-up needed or merited.

 

It does not matter which component you install first. By default they will install to different locations, since you had HC installed there before just make sure the demo installs to a different directory than the game (and it will anyway).

 

There is no series of installers for the demo, just the 2009.050 install then as you say 2009.052.

Maybe I will actually run a whole bunch of tests on this, but it would be nice to have a definite answer to the weapons arcs question first.

 

Go for it.

 

done, see new thread

You are running XP so you're good to go system-wise. No clean-up needed or merited.

 

It does not matter which component you install first. By default they will install to different locations, since you had HC installed there before just make sure the demo installs to a different directory than the game (and it will anyway).

 

There is no series of installers for the demo, just the 2009.050 install then as you say 2009.052.

OK, so there should be no conflicts to worry about goofing up results. (I'm hoping to get one system that is as close as possible to my own configuration, in order to -hopefully- get comparable results).

 

A couple other questions that I didn't ask before:

 

First, my friend mentioned that he got some sort of message while installing HUE on his primary machine about the system not having enough resources to support HUE, but it went ahead and installed the stuff, and he apparently isn't having any issues with HCE on there. He guessed that the message may have applied to some other game in the UE, but it raises some concerns - especially considering that the older test machine we will use is a "lesser" machine than his primary one.

 

Second, he has under his auspices, but not under his ownership, a Windows 7 sub-notebook system. So, I'm wondering if it is "legal" to install a copy of his HUE's HCE component on that system. I'm also wondering whether it's even worth bothering with trying to test the demo on that one, seeing it's a different OS than my own installation. What do you think?

I don't see the merit in using multiple systems in the first place other than the one system other than yours to get you access to the full product so I'm probably not a good one to answer whether installing on multiple operating systems is a good thing or not.

I don't see the merit in using multiple systems in the first place other than the one system other than yours to get you access to the full product so I'm probably not a good one to answer whether installing on multiple operating systems is a good thing or not.

I thought were were trying to find out whether my game-saves exhibit the same behavior on other platforms... and because apparently they can be run only on the Demo, I figured it would be useful to try those games-saves in the Demo on as many machines as I can get my hands on. (I thought we discussed doing this, previously? )

I think that is what you said, not me. I wanted you to use the tools available to prove to yourself the game is working right or prove to us that it isn't. One of those tools being the full game so that you can write targeted scenarios. Another of those tools being the extended logging added to the air to air missile hits so that you can put real numbers to your claims of the invincible F-16s (which I happen to think I lent great credence to being untrue in your provided situation thanks to that logging that showed very valid possibility of 6 F-15 being downed without a single F-16 loss despite the exact same AAM thanks to the random die roll and 20% differential in hit chance).

I think that is what you said, not me. I wanted you to use the tools available to prove to yourself the game is working right or prove to us that it isn't. One of those tools being the full game so that you can write targeted scenarios. Another of those tools being the extended logging added to the air to air missile hits so that you can put real numbers to your claims of the invincible F-16s (which I happen to think I lent great credence to being untrue in your provided situation thanks to that logging that showed very valid possibility of 6 F-15 being downed without a single F-16 loss despite the exact same AAM thanks to the random die roll and 20% differential in hit chance).

Then I mis-undestood. And while I'm not quite sure what you said above, my concern about creating new scenarios under different program conditions is that if those don't demonstrate the same problem, that may be construed as "proof" that the problem never existed in the first place, where in reality, it may simply be demonstrating a different set of program conditions where the problem does not manifest. That's why I hope to maintain circumstances that don't change the game conditions, but only move to a different platform - to see whether the problem follows the save-files or actually is machine-specific.

 

Now, if instead you are implying that you don't believe the reported behaviors exist anywhere, then it seems you've already reached your verdict, and so anything I do is just going to be a waste of time - because there'd be nothing I could provide that would constitute adequate "proof".

 

Regardless, I wish to satisfy myself - as best I can - whether the same problem shows up on machines other than my own - because that itself should shed some light on potential causes. If nothing else, I hope to lay to rest once and for all the question of whether this stuff really is some local gremlin - because if it is, then the solution becomes simple: I just play on some other machine... case closed! On the other hand, if I see it show up in the demo on other machines, then it shows the problem is not local - and then it makes sense to put significant effort into attempting to reproduce the same behavior in the HUE version of HCE. Even if the HUE version of HCE is the "same" as the HCE Demo version, there are certain aspects that must be different by definition (e.g. - registry entries, directories used, save-file formats, etc.), and it seems plausible to me that any such differences could be involved in this. Considering the evidence to date, it especially would not surprise me to find that the problem is specific to the Demo, in light of the probability that I'm running the Demo while most others are running the release version or the Beta, so if the problem is Demo-specific, it would make sense that few others see/report similar behaviors. And, again, the solution would be relatively simple: That is, I either migrate to the HUE version, or (more likely) I simply "live with" the Demo, due to financial considerations. Call me lazy if you will, but I always try to find the simple solutions first.

Meanwhile, on the suck/rock front-----

give the "Reflex Crown"scenario I posted on Sunday a try.