2010.006 is expired, so I guess I'll have to deal with 2009.050, as the current beta is *too* experimental.

 

However, any advice as to if it might be better to play the old (fixed DB) battleset games under a certain old version for better results? 1.58e? 1.62b? Or the current HUCE?

 

If you do play them under an older version, I'd say HC2002 since it is far more stable and bug-fixed than the ones older than that. I prefer the HUCE experience in large part thanks to the radar model and ECM model, even in the older scenarios.

For example. 3 Flankers vs 6 Tornados. I'm protecting an E-3 and in no mood for playing so I let the Flankers have it: 9 SkyFlashes, or three per flanker on average. The flankers, being the argumentative buggers that they are, answer with four radar missiles themselves. Now to my mind, 3 missiles per aircraft is pretty good odds. Yet somehow the flankers get 100% hit rate and all bar one of my missiles miss, the flankers go off and retreat with a mission well done, drinking Vodka all the way back (no statistics available on landing accidents). Meanwhile the remaining 2(!) Tornados remain on station arguing about budget cuts to missile guidance systems while the E3 decides to call it a day.

 

Another example: Keflavik is annoying me. I decide enough is enough and launch 8 F4-G's with a raven and a fighter escort for good measure. At 70nm's, I let Keflavik have it with a broadside of HARM's. My tactic is to blind then and them lob a tomahawk or two downrange. 32 missiles is an awful lot of missiles. Yet Keflavik survives with not a single hit.

 

A third example. My ships are tootling along, sensors off, no ESM gear. All of a sudden, 10 missiles appear out of nowhere and blow them to kingdom come. No idea where it came from, what happened, anything. Yet when I try the same tactic (sneaking up etc), even the captain's dog detects my submarine.

 

Now presumably the game isn't unbalanced, otherwise this forum would be full of complaints (or is it? I didn't really look...). So that means either I'm a colossal idiot (quite possible) or the AI is insanely hard (quite likely) and is rigged against you (also possible). Or there's a patch that applies military budget cuts and I don't know about it.

 

I haven't read all 60 replies yet, and this is a couple of weeks old, so I may be repeating someone else's post.

 

Personally, I feel that 4 missiles per good fighter is about right to actually kill it. The Flanker definitely qualifies. That's if the missile has the range to hit. Running away is also an option. 27 nm for the Sky Flash. If nobody has given the actual hit probabilities, I will revisit this. Maybe the Flankers got lucky when they got you? And you got unlucky?

 

Shooting at Keflavik with 32 HARMs should give you a whole bunch of hits, knocking out the radar, but doing little else. That's if there are no SAMs or fighters defending. Or maybe it's possible that you actually wasted an attached radar unit and nothing else?

 

If your ships are innocently driving along and suddenly eat a whole bunch of missiles, it's pretty clear that something saw YOU. Perhaps a sub? And you can assume that enemy has lots of long-range cruise missiles kicking around. The source of the missiles could be far, far away. If your ships are traveling at more than 15 kn, you can be sure that subs will hear you, and you will not hear them.

 

Apparently the AI is not very good at all, but the scenario may be designed to compensate.

 

More later.

One of the posts in this thread described an attack on Keflavik with f-4G's with HARMS. Id like to know if the base was radiating at the time. hard for HARMS to do much damage if the base was being sneaky with radar. <emphasis mine>

 

 

Just before i started typing this out, i was playing a simple GIUK scen, and lost a RN Lynx on a ASUW mission with sea skua. I had it looking for two nanchuka's that i needed to find, and the nanchuka's downed her after she fired the skuas, and the skuas died because they didnt have radar illumination anymore. i went in dumb and paid for it. I did it mainly to test the theory of the AI.

 

Attacking Nanuchkas with Lynx/Sea Skua is a really bad idea (translation: suicide). I discuss this in detail in an old post in the Matrix forums.

Attacking Nanuchkas with Lynx/Sea Skua is a really bad idea (translation: suicide). I discuss this in detail in an old post in the Matrix forums.

 

Nah. Not suicidal, but certainly challenging.

 

Sea Skua outranges SA-N-4 Gecko, so just take care to stand off outside Gecko range.

 

The usual obstacle is having enough Sea Skuas to beat both Gecko and the Nanuchka's gun armament.

Attacking Nanuchkas with Lynx/Sea Skua is a really bad idea (translation: suicide). I discuss this in detail in an old post in the Matrix forums.

 

Nah. Not suicidal, but certainly challenging.

 

Sea Skua outranges SA-N-4 Gecko, so just take care to stand off outside Gecko range.

 

The usual obstacle is having enough Sea Skuas to beat both Gecko and the Nanuchka's gun armament.

 

Well, in the current commondb they outrange the SA-N-4. In the older ones, not so much. In old GIUK, for example, you have to get to 7 nm to fire Sea Skua, and the AI can fire at 8 sometimes.

Well, in the current commondb they outrange the SA-N-4. In the older ones, not so much. In old GIUK, for example, you have to get to 7 nm to fire Sea Skua, and the AI can fire at 8 sometimes.

 

Yeah, it does depend on the figures used in the database that governs the scenario, obviously.

 

I was referring to the real life or best known figures that the most current database strives to emulate.

 

(Btw, when I look at the GIUK values, I see a value of 8.0 nm for both the Sea Skua and the SA-N-4 Gecko).

Well, in the current commondb they outrange the SA-N-4. In the older ones, not so much. In old GIUK, for example, you have to get to 7 nm to fire Sea Skua, and the AI can fire at 8 sometimes.

 

Yeah, it does depend on the figures used in the database that governs the scenario, obviously.

 

I was referring to the real life or best known figures that the most current database strives to emulate.

 

(Btw, when I look at the GIUK values, I see a value of 8.0 nm for both the Sea Skua and the SA-N-4 Gecko).

 

I was definitely using an older version of the game when I did this exercise (8 nm vs. 7 nm). There is another factor that may also be relevant. I don't have the game available right now, but don't ASM have to be launched at less than maximum range? It seems to me that I have seen this restriction before.

Well, in the current commondb they outrange the SA-N-4. In the older ones, not so much. In old GIUK, for example, you have to get to 7 nm to fire Sea Skua, and the AI can fire at 8 sometimes.

 

Yeah, it does depend on the figures used in the database that governs the scenario, obviously.

 

I was referring to the real life or best known figures that the most current database strives to emulate.

 

(Btw, when I look at the GIUK values, I see a value of 8.0 nm for both the Sea Skua and the SA-N-4 Gecko).

 

Yeah, it says 8, but see if the HUCE game engine will let you fire at that range.

Yeah, it says 8, but see if the HUCE game engine will let you fire at that range.

 

If you insist.

 

Here you are. Weapon allocation dialog at 8 nm (check it in the lower left corner).

 

 

I am aware that the GE tells you that you need to close to 7 nm, but since when did you start listening to the Staff Assistant?

Yeah, it says 8, but see if the HUCE game engine will let you fire at that range.

 

If you insist.

 

Here you are. Weapon allocation dialog at 8 nm (check it in the lower left corner).

 

 

I am aware that the GE tells you that you need to close to 7 nm, but since when did you start listening to the Staff Assistant?

 

Maybe I'm remembering a version of the GE that listened to him, too. I distinctly remember a time when I would check range/bearing to 8 miles, try to attack, and couldn't get weapon allocation till 7.

In CommonDB, it doesn't matter, though. Clearly the SA-N-4 is outranged, and, much less likely for harpoons/sea skuas to be shot down by Nanuchkas, too. If I wasn't so bad at scenario design, I'd try to make more of the old great scenarios in commondb format. I know a few exist, like Dawn Patrol, etc, but there's so much of my Harpoon history in the old scenarios, and I still want to find a version of Three Days at Mannar that actually has ships resembling the orders in it...

In CommonDB, it doesn't matter, though. Clearly the SA-N-4 is outranged, and, much less likely for harpoons/sea skuas to be shot down by Nanuchkas, too.

 

Agreed.

 

If I wasn't so bad at scenario design, I'd try to make more of the old great scenarios in commondb format. I know a few exist, like Dawn Patrol, etc, but there's so much of my Harpoon history in the old scenarios, and I still want to find a version of Three Days at Mannar that actually has ships resembling the orders in it ...

 

I'm sure your scenarios are quite playable, probably even enjoyable, even if you might not think so. Remaking some of the old classics and exploiting HCE's new capabilities would make a great project. If only someone would try.

Brad, since you've gone to the trouble to test this, would it be an imposition to ask you to test it again, but with the Lynx coming in from BEHIND the Nanuchka?

A third example. My ships are tootling along, sensors off, no ESM gear. All of a sudden, 10 missiles appear out of nowhere and blow them to kingdom come. No idea where it came from, what happened, anything. Yet when I try the same tactic (sneaking up etc), even the captain's dog detects my submarine.

 

A further comment on this.

 

I think this maneuver is not only risky, but actually suicidal. As soon as any AI sub gets a sniff of you, every Oscar in the world and his brother is going to unload a bunch of cruise missiles on you.

 

In fact, I consider the situation to be so dangerous that, when a scenario starts, EVERY ship goes to full stop. I figure if an AI sub detects you in the first 30s, then you are toast anyway, but if not, stationary = silent = safe.

 

Well, not EVERY ship. Groups with good ASW assets and the capacity to deal with sub-launched cruise missiles are allowed to proceed at 15 kn.

 

Fighters and ASW planes are sent to escort stragglers to safety.

 

I'm assuming that you have land-based air to deal with AI long-range bombers, and the main threats to the straggler ships are torpedoes and sub-launched cruise missiles.

 

Furthermore, I don't think ship groups should be traveling around without active sensors. If the group has any aircraft available, some of them should be up with active radars, looking for incoming cruise missiles. The aircraft are safe because enemy fighters will be too far away to engage them, and the long-range stuff doesn't have ATA capacity (unless you send LRB to shoot down helicopters with guns???). The AI will not be able to deduce the presence of ships from the presence of escorting aircraft, so this is a "cheat" of sorts, but not really, because I'm talking about ships moving around far from enemy bases anyway, and subs cannot realistically detect aircraft in any case.

 

If singleton ships ARE moving about near enemy airbases, well, they're going to die anyway.

 

In the absence of escorting aircraft, I think that you should use the feature that different units in a ship group can have different sensor states. Low-value units with good radars should have them on to give some warning of sub-launched missile attacks.

Brad, since you've gone to the trouble to test this, would it be an imposition to ask you to test it again, but with the Lynx coming in from BEHIND the Nanuchka?

 

Sure thing.

 

Here, I do not get the weapon allocation dialog until I have reached 7 nm.

 

I am guessing this might be because the GE is continually trying to calculate the distance between the Lynx and the retreating Nanuchka III. In other words, if I shoot exactly at 8 nm at a retreating target, it will be more distant by the time the missile reaches the target and will drop short.

 

Interesting result, nevertheless.

 

 

I am able to launch all four Sea Skuas without the Nanuchka III engaging my Lynx.

 

There's no need to continue advancing into the defensive envelope, so I hover my Lynx at 7 nm.

 

 

Two of the four Sea Skuas strike home, inflicting 65% damage. One is shot down, another misses.

 

 

My Lynx is flirting with danger, sure, but not feeling especially suicidal.

 

It should be noted, of course, that the best place to attack a Nanuchka is from the rear, as the SA-N-4 arc is forward.

I am guessing this might be because the GE is continually trying to calculate the distance between the Lynx and the retreating Nanuchka III. In other words, if I shoot exactly at 8 nm at a retreating target, it will be more distant by the time the missile reaches the target and will drop short.

 

After further discussion with Tony, it is likely nowhere near as 'elegant' as this and more likely a rounding error when it comes to weapon range. Lousy Occam's Razor interfering again.