I just updated my HCE with HC2009.042inc.zip and HC2010.006GE.zip from HarpGamer and did a short run test. I have some serious concerns about one of the changes made since the last Matrix patch, v2008.044.

 

Reports I have read are completely correct, the AI Bear D recon aircraft now do not turn on their surface search radar and are now completely useless, as well as are several billion rubles of ASM carrying bombers up around Murmansk. This castration now makes it impossible to model a key Soviet strategy. With this change several regiments of very expensive Soviet bombers will spend the war waiting for a recon report that will never ever come. Yes, I am NOT amused.

 

I can't express how weird I find this. It completely destroys any possibility of AI maritime recon.

 

PLEASE please fix this. Reading the status reports on various improvements makes me want to play with them, but I will have to delete Harpoon and reload it so I can get my AI recon back. Or better yet, point out what I'm missing that fixes this.

 

And just a small note:

 

I believe I read that in one of the more recentish patches the grid lines were disabled. Well, mine are on permanently. I can change the way they are applied, as usual, but the On/Off buttons are grayed out. The scenario I cooked up to test some things had them turned on, so my guess is they were imported into the game from the scenario. I like having the grid lines as a general thing, but it would be nice to be able to turn them off.

Can you please share the test scenario you made that shows the Bear D behavior? The smaller the better. I'll help you with the gridlines when I get back in town, I'm away for another 6 or 8 hours. Ideally create an Issue Report for the Bear D. I know the issue can be worked around with a database change but it may merit a code change.

 

Thank you!

Will do.

 

Just one simple question - how do I send you the scenario? It is very small and very simple, I was just testing two things.

 

Thanks a lot for the fast replay!

Just posted the issue at HarpGamer > Issue Tracker > HCE with a .zip of the very basic scenario I was using for testing.

 

Things have actually gotten worse. Thinking I'd just revert back to 2008.044 I uninstalled HCE v2009.042 and reinstalled HCE and added 2008.024 and 2008.044. Now my game is not allowing AI Surface Search radars on the Bear-Ds, i.e. it is showing the same behavior as with the new patch. As all the game files were deleted before the reinstall, the new patch must have messed with something deeper than just the files. I really need to find out how to fix that. I'm afraid something was changed in the registry and that is a bit scary to mess with.

There is no registry affect on the Bear D issue so you nedn't fear that. The gridlines being stuck on however is a registry thing.

 

Find a zip file attached to this post that you can use (with the game closed) to turn off the grid lines.

 

If you start with 2007.000 there is no reason or benefit to installing 2008.024 before 2008.044 if your final destination is 2008.044; just sayin.

 

One thing I will suggest is to do your scenario authoring in EC2003 or newer battlesets as they use the editable databases. You should end up with many fewer frustrating results that way and can then also make use of the database editor and the knowledgeable people who edit databases (everything EC2000 and older does not use the editable database and is almost entirely frozen-in-time database-wise).

HCEGridOff.zip

I have some serious concerns about one of the changes made since the last Matrix patch, v2008.044. Reports I have read are completely correct, the AI Bear D recon aircraft now do not turn on their surface search radar and are now completely useless, as well as are several billion rubles of ASM carrying bombers up around Murmansk. This castration now makes it impossible to model a key Soviet strategy. With this change several regiments of very expensive Soviet bombers will spend the war waiting for a recon report that will never ever come. Yes, I am NOT amused. I can't express how weird I find this. It completely destroys any possibility of AI maritime recon.

 

Firstly, you need to calm down. I think maybe Tony's quick response has served to help you do just that, but in any event, just relax and we'll look at the issue.

 

I don't think we ever made this change intentionally, and if we did, it must have been for a good reason.

 

Now that you've taken the proper steps to start a thread under Issue Tracker we can look at it in more detail.

I should add that I have very little (probably none, honestly) sympathy for anyone who chooses (nowadays) to make new scenarios in the older battlesets (pre EC2003 and earlier) and then encounters less than ideal behavior.

 

You're stuck with the database as it was then written, and sometimes its less than ideal.

 

You do have at your disposal a new, editable database - and the ability to make your own! - and new battlesets to go with it - and the ability to make your own! - why not take advantage of it?

 

If its a code issue that is affecting platform behavior, then by all means if we can correct it, we will.

There is no registry affect on the Bear D issue so you nedn't fear that. The gridlines being stuck on however is a registry thing.

 

Find a zip file attached to this post that you can use (with the game closed) to turn off the grid lines.

 

If you start with 2007.000 there is no reason or benefit to installing 2008.024 before 2008.044 if your final destination is 2008.044; just sayin.

 

One thing I will suggest is to do your scenario authoring in EC2003 or newer battlesets as they use the editable databases. You should end up with many fewer frustrating results that way and can then also make use of the database editor and the knowledgeable people who edit databases (everything EC2000 and older does not use the editable database and is almost entirely frozen-in-time database-wise).

 

Thank you very much Tony for both the help and the remarkable promptness.

 

There is no registry affect on the Bear D issue so you nedn't fear that

 

I confess to finding this confusing.

 

I have changed computers since the last time I played Harpoon, so when I installed Matrix HCE it was an utterly clean install with no possibility of any bits and pieces left from a prior install. I then updated with patches 2008.024 and 2008.044, not knowing any better. At that point, using Show All, I could watch Bear-Ds lifting off from Murmansk East with their Surface Search Radar already turned on (could see the range circles).

 

Only after I patched up to HC2009.042inc.zip plus HC2010.006GE.zip, did the no radar Bears behavior occur. I then decided to revert to the pre-HC2009.042 configuration so I could get my AI radars back. When I went to Control Panel/Uninstall there where two listings for HC, as I recall one seemed to reference HC2009.042 and the other vanilla HC. I selected the HC2009.042 uninstall choice and an uninstall process occured. Then when I went to remove the second listing for HC, seemingly vanilla, it could not uninstall it. Looking at the directory I found most, but not all,of the HC files gone. I then deleted the remaining files. I've gone into all this just in case it might relate to what comes next.

 

I then reinstalled Matrix with HC patches 2008.024 and 2008.044, still not knowing any better.

 

Everything seems fine, except now, using the same scenario I had previous used with both the pre and post HC2009.042 patch installs, the AI Bear-Ds still had no active Surface Search radar. Using Show All I could again watch them take off from Murmansk East without SS and later when they came inside the Air Search zone of a blue surface group all without turning on their SS radar - the same pattern of behavior displayed under patch HC2009.042.

 

Therefore, believing that there were no files remaining from the previous HC2009.042 patched install, I assumed something in the registry was changed that caused this issue, even when I wiped the offending installs files and reinstalled. Of course, I guess there could be some other file somewhere outside the Matrix Games\Harpoon CE directory that causes this behavior. If so, I have no idea where to even begin to look.

 

One random thought just occurred. I did not reboot the computer during all of this. So I'll check tonight to see if the No Radar Bears Behavior might be different after a reboot.

 

The grid lines being stuck on however is a registry thing.

 

A minor point, but I kinda liked being able to have grid lines on when I wanted them. Having the old on/off grid lines would be nice. I realize there were problems with their accuracy, but they still provided useful reference points.

 

 

I will in future do my experimenting in EC2003 or newer battlesets. Of course, I realized there were newer databases, but I didn't realize that the older battle sets, just by virtue of being older, were prone to bad behavior.

 

The only things I know to do regarding the No Radar Bears Behavior are:

1) Check to see if a reboot, i.e. turning my computer on this evening, has any effect.

2) Rewrite the scenario in an EC2003 or later battle set and see what happens.

 

Is there something I'm missing that I might do?

I will in future do my experimenting in EC2003 or newer battlesets. Of course, I realized there were newer databases, but I didn't realize that the older battle sets, just by virtue of being older, were prone to bad behavior.

 

Platform behavior - code wise - should be the same, but because the older battlesets use an embedded database, the platforms cannot be relied upon to produce expected results.

 

If you're working with newer battlesets, however, we can readily address any defects in the DB and rule out that possibility promptly.

I should add that I have very little (probably none, honestly) sympathy for anyone who chooses (nowadays) to make new scenarios in the older battlesets (pre EC2003 and earlier) and then encounters less than ideal behavior.

 

You're stuck with the database as it was then written, and sometimes its less than ideal.

 

You do have at your disposal a new, editable database - and the ability to make your own! - and new battlesets to go with it - and the ability to make your own! - why not take advantage of it?

 

If its a code issue that is affecting platform behavior, then by all means if we can correct it, we will.

 

Hmm, frankly it seems you are being gratuitously snarky.

 

1) Not everyone knows that the older battle set, simply by virtue of being older and non-editable, are prone to causing problems.

2) You seems to have missed the point that the scenario in the old battle set under v2008.044 worked just fine. It was only after patching up to 2009.042 that the undesirable behavior began.

3) Given that the only variable change prior to the undesirable behavior was the installation of a patch, it seem logical to suspect that this singular variable was the source of the problem.

4) Given the above it would seem more likely that the undesirable behavior is a result of something in the code, rather than my apparently poor choice of battle sets.

5) Therefore, your lack of sympathy for me is irrelevant.

Hmm, frankly it seems you are being gratuitously snarky.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have seen the thread at Matrix, and to be honest, you got more than a little excited over a minor issue and made yourself easy prey for someone who has a reputation for not being able to discern drama from reality.

 

2) You seems to have missed the point that the scenario in the old battle set under v2008.044 worked just fine. It was only after patching up to 2009.042 that the undesirable behavior began.

3) Given that the only variable change prior to the undesirable behavior was the installation of a patch, it seem logical to suspect that this singular variable was the source of the problem.

4) Given the above it would seem more likely that the undesirable behavior is a result of something in the code, rather than my apparently poor choice of battle sets.

 

All of which is certainly possible, but there is a method and a process for addressing the issue. I suspect that you have already found that pursuing it - as opposed to animated expressions of "why, why, why", "I am not amused", etc, etc - are likely to produce better results for you.

 

Therefore, your lack of sympathy for me is irrelevant.

 

I'm not picking on you in particular, Akmatov. Most anyone who spends any amount of time playing HCE will quickly recognise the limitations between the older and the newer battlesets. Being able to localize the problem (if there is one) helps us - as the HCE support team - figure out a solution. Being able to work effectively with the person who discovered the issue and made the complaint, so that a workable solution can be found, is absolutely essential. Therefore, I expect you will find that my having "sympathy" for you and your reported issue will be highly relevant.

Being able to work effectively with the person who discovered the issue and made the complaint, so that a workable solution can be found, is absolutely essential. Therefore, I expect you will find that my having "sympathy" for you and your reported issue will be highly relevant.

 

I'm curious, do you see an oddity about these two sentences right beside each other?

 

And btb, did you notice that as soon as Tony directed me to the best way to address issues, I immediately followed his helpful guidance? And that he has verified the problem?

 

My sole desire has been to draw attention to a problem that seem to me to be major and to provide the fullest possible information to assist in its resolution. I have indeed expressed dismay at the problem, but have not directed any negativity toward the folks responsive for the much appreciated ongoing development of Harpoon. My choice of thread titles was intended to be a bit light-hearted, although it seems to have utterly failed in that intent. You seem to have perceived my comments as something personal, hence your snarky response and now this suggestion that your 'sympathy' for a particular customer and potential future customer would be "highly relevant" to the resolution to a "reported issue" (btb, recently verified by Tony).

 

I am certainly very unhappy about what I'm currently calling the No Radar Bears and I expressed that unhappiness. At no time, as far as I know, did I express any derogatory comments toward the folks who are keeping Harpoon alive and growing. I think our exchange has definitely gotten into a negative area, which is especially distressing as you have previously been very helpful. This will be my last comment on this thread other than those strictly focused on assisting in the resolution of this verified issue.

 

Let's all have a better day.

Okay boys, breathe

 

Akamtov has found a problem with the game that makes the bread and butter Warsaw Pact vs NATO Cold War engagement difficult to game out. That is valuable and the test scenario is appreciated.

 

The approach and wording of the report surely didn't enthuse me and definitely rubbed Brad the wrong way. This is a volunteer effort and as a result should be enjoyable to us. Newcomers don't know the situation, have paid for a product expecting a level of service commensurate with that payment. The two (hobby vs payment) have an obvious conflict in that those of us who develop and support the game are either purely volunteers or receive very small royalty payments (Brad, Akula, and myself share royalty payments). Suffice it to say very small means that they don't cover even a quarter of what I spend on development tools each year, never mind the time invested in the game. Nor did we ask for the payments; money is not why we're here.

 

Anyway, the game needs supporters and contributors. We've made the decision that despite that, the game does not benefit from having Herman around. His presence in this situation and scenario also helped to put us on edge; just the indication of his influence raises my blood pressure. I won't deny he plays more Harpoon than anyone else and won't deny he's one of the best testers around, and won't deny he was and could be a powerful positive force. But he isn't now and only seems to serve to discourage me from spending my hobby time on Harpoon and more than a few others share that feeling.

 

So let's move forward. It looks like the radar activation issue is well proven, properly documented, and will benefit from a EC2003 scenario but doesn't need one to provoke further action. As you'll see in the beta testing forum I'm in the midst of a long-march to the next useable build unlike the usual quick releases it has been and may be weeks before the next build (I'm really really trying to beat the beta build expiration). So if the issue isn't fixed immediately it isn't due to unappreciation of the issue. This radar activation needs to be fixed and will be fixed.

I'm curious, do you see an oddity about these two sentences right beside each other?

 

Nope, because while I do have 'sympathy' (there has to be a better term) for your reported issue (because I write scenarios too, and I want the Bear D to work as it should!), I admittedly do lack sympathy for people who think its better to jump up and down and wave their arms rather than work with the folks who fix the problems. Again, I do not think you are one of those people. More on that below.

 

My choice of thread titles was intended to be a bit light-hearted, although it seems to have utterly failed in that intent. You seem to have perceived my comments as something personal, hence your snarky response and now this suggestion that your 'sympathy' for a particular customer and potential future customer would be "highly relevant" to the resolution to a "reported issue" (btb, recently verified by Tony).

 

I expect you are correct that my perception of your complaint was tainted by your choice of words. And in no small way by the fact that it fed the voracious 'appetite for drama' of the person I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

At no time, as far as I know, did I express any derogatory comments toward the folks who are keeping Harpoon alive and growing. I think our exchange has definitely gotten into a negative area, which is especially distressing as you have previously been very helpful. This will be my last comment on this thread other than those strictly focused on assisting in the resolution of this verified issue. Let's all have a better day.

 

I am quite prepared to join you in that effort, and I am willing to offer my apology for being 'snarky'. That was not my intention. My patience for nonsense (when we can all be achieving something much better than that) is limited these days and I freely admit it. Moving on, hopefully to fix those Bears.

I am so sorry I managed to tread on already sore toes. I knew I was 'venting', but I thought I was avoiding any sort of attack on anyone. I had wanted to 'vent' to people who would understand my frustration - when I tried to explain the problem to my adolescent tom cat, his response was to ask when dinner would be served and to then turn his back and resume his grooming.

 

I am very aware of the fact that it is only due to the dedication of folks like you guys that Harpoon even still exists in a form that an up-to-date operation system - my old 5.25" disks are only useful as coasters today. There are certain games that I find myself coming back to repeatedly and the factor that causes that is folks like you guys who have taken over an older game and continually breathed life into it. The current version of Harpoon is unique in today's game/simulation market and a vast improvement over the original.

 

BTB, you guys do realize that your demonstrated willingness to listen to player reports might lead to more reports and/or suggestions?