Musing aloud....(Harpoon 4.1 PBEM/live online play, without AI)

[noxious]

So, been reading, thinking about what I'll run first scenario wise, and mostly thinking how I'm going to do it so I can play on my computer, against human opponents, either pbem or live, with no human referee (albeit it should be possible to have one)

First try will be a VASSAL module, as it already has live capabilities versus cyberboard that only does pbem (afaik).

 

Now, it wouldn't include the rules, or automatic resolution of combat : the only automated part would be a fog of war to replace having a human referee plot everyone's moves.

So as not to step on Uncle Harpoon's toes, et al.

e.g you input your detection dice roll, the "ref" checks if you have anything in range....

 

Part of that musing aloud has me wonders if I could do this in an official manner, with Larry's approval, and maybe down the line have it offered on a donation/shareware basis...

 

The idea is not to compete with the computer versions of Harpoon, but to allow players of any version of paper Harpoon (focus on 4.1) to use the net to play head to head games, or small multiplayer games without a referee.

Or even better, large games...

The computer adjudicator/referee could be a lot more evolved, but again not wanting to step on anyone's toes, or even be perceived to do so makes me consider it all at a very reduced scale for the moment.

Not AI opponent complex, but kind of where you fully leverage Vassal UI to enter legal orders for your units, and the hosting player/server who runs the referee solves everything simultaneously for the players, maybe even roll the dice for you.

Of course, the turn sequence would be strictly followed : it would be paper Harpoon leveraging the PC

 

For a "turnish" PBEM style of play, it would use the formalized way to enter orders to synchronise every phase, give feedback/update to each player, so everything is resolved like in a paper game with referee.

 

Of course, it could be used by a solo player to play against himself

 

Going to start working on a first quick iteration that allows me to set a custom map (.bmp, .jpeg, or whatever vassal supports) by importing the file, with player inputing scale of the map as how many pixels to a mile or some such.

 

Now, I'd like to hear what you guys think about this, and whether there is a "market" for it (market in the sense that people would use it) : Harpoon doesn't have the popularity it once had in wargaming circles it seems, not only computer wise.

 

Also, for those having experience in harpoon licensing, any thoughts on Don or Larry's position on such a product ?

I'd like to reiterate that players would have to stick to the "honor rule" that pervades paper and PBEM wargaming : it really would be a supplement of H4.1, rather than something separate.

 

And I'd like to know what you would like in such a harpoon computer aid, as far as how it works (e.g order input UI) and alongside features it might have (calculator for multiple weapon launches to get a simulataneous ToT, etc.)

 

It would also be an invaluable aid to PBEM gamemasters/referees, I guess.

 

Anyway, off to tinker with VASSAL a bit

[pmaidhof]

I'd like to see what you come up with. There was an ADC module for Harpoon, but nobody I know ever used it so I did not invest in it. Not certain how you would do H4.1 pbem without some sort of neutral umpire. Worst case an umpire enforcing the rules while running the disadvantiged side.

[noxious]

I'd like to see what you come up with. There was an ADC module for Harpoon, but nobody I know ever used it so I did not invest in it.

 

So I can count on you to do some testing soonish with me ?

VASSAL is a very nice toolchain, from my experience with it so far with it.

A lot of the functionality I need for the initial "build" is built-in, part of standard features.

Stay tuned

[Silent Hunter UK]

Might be interested in this...

[pmaidhof]

Always interested.

[noxious]

Anyone with good scans of their countersheets, or links to images that would make good counters ?

We could most likely play a small scenario as soon as this weekend if I don't have to do too much work on graphics.

There won't be any rules checking implemented, but a referee will be able to supervise and hide/unhide counters according to detection.

Distribution will be on a private basis, no public availability for the time being, as it's very much a work in progress.

Most likely, book keeping will still be all done the traditional way, by hand, on paper or computer forms, depending on one's preferences.

All it will be for this initial test is a live environment to play H4.1 with human opponents over the net with a referee.

It might include more, depending on various factors

The idea is being able to play asap if we want to.

 

Suggestions welcome for a small scenario to test with, since I have to incorporate maps.

The module will include a large blue water playing surface for generic blue water engagements.

 

Thanks in advance for any graphics, suggestions for graphics, maps, etc.

Cheers !

[pmaidhof]

Anyone with good scans of their countersheets, or links to images that would make good counters ?

 

Mine are all punched, except for the "customized" HNR2003 back page I have already mentioned recently and a single pioneer UAV "counter" that can be found within the H4 folders fround a few years ago.

 

Pete

[pmaidhof]

a single pioneer UAV "counter" that can be found within the H4 folders fround a few years ago.

 

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?s...&hl=pioneer

[Warhorse64]

re: Scans of counter sheets --- are you bumping up against copyright laws there?

[noxious]

re: Scans of counter sheets --- are you bumping up against copyright laws there?

 

Private distribution I said, which falls under fair use in Canuckistan, if not many other Western countries : I'm allowed to make as many copies of materials I bought as long as I don't distribute them publically...

The scanned countersheets would never be part of a public distribution without the permissions from IP holders or a mechanism decided by them to check that users are licensed users of the IP (e.g proof of purchase of harpoon 4.1, not going to happen that way, too much headaches, just an example...)

Me giving a copy of the module to you and Pete so we can test it for example is private distribution.

 

I'm a game industry veteran, I'm very familiar with IP laws and have strong feelings on the subject : believe me, there is nothing wrong happening here

 

If the module became public, it would be cleared first by Larry Bond and Chris Carlson, then maybe also Uncle Harpoon, depending on the precise wording of the IP agreement on computer rights to the Harpoon IP, and maybe even the H3C committee, seeing as they're sub-licensees of the Harpoon IP (in Uncle Harpoon's own words)

 

For it to become public and commercial, we have to go even farther, and I don't see that ever happening without making it competitive with HCE and ANW, which I don't want : including a sort of annexes DB, with automatically filled forms, etc. would compete too much with the real computer versions, whom like the paper game, see part of their value in bringing a lot of data and information to players through their annexes/platform display/plaftorm editors, well worth the price of admission if you ask me, but if it was suddenly accessible in a computer based aid for the paper rules might throw a wrench in a few people's plan, which again I don't want.

 

But, as long as it's not freely available, and for private use (meaning using Harpoon and house rules/aids as they're meant to be played : with friends or acquaintances), it can contain pretty much anything I or we want in it

 

Clear things up ?

 

Cheers !

[Warhorse64]

I suppose what is worrying me is the fact that the internet is involved. Absent the 'net, whatever you do will only affect a few players. With the 'net, you are potentially affecting the entire user base, and I can imagine the possibility for unpleasant interactions between Fair Use and the Law of Unintended Consequences. I'm not saying that it must be so, and I'm willing to take your word for it that you know what you're talking about when you say it's okay, but that's why I asked in the first place. Please don't think I'm trying to call you out ...

[noxious]

Update : the latest betas of VASSAL include an import ADC2 module feature. Going to try it with the Harpoon 4 ADC2 module, now freely available, and free.

About to try the import, but apparently it uses HEXES !!!

 

[after a bit of time spent trying things out, i come back to finishing this post...]

 

Well, you can only import on a scenario per scenario basis, but at the very least I can use the counters (on a temp basis), as well as ideas from the result of the import to work on mine.

 

More news later on,

Cheers !

[Silent Hunter UK]

Any more of this planned?

[noxious]

Any more of this planned?

 

Yes, going to get back at it, and release something asap. No dates, 'though

[Silent Hunter UK]

Thanks for that.