Defect Name: HARM cannot launch

Build: HCE 2007.000

Repeatable: Y

Operating System: XP

DB used: HCDB-070524

Scenario used: HARM cannot launch.hpq

Long Description: HARM cannot launch against targets that report with radar active.

 

Sequence to reproduce:

1. Order air group to attack ZZb or OOm.

2. "Cannot conduct Land Attack" message received

3. Look in Unit display and several ZZ units are active, but Airbase radar is off. Same for OOm group.

4. Allow missiles to destroy the base.

5. Air group can now attack new group (WT) once the base has been destroyed.

 

Expected behaviour: Should be able to attack active radar in the group

Observed behaviour: Cannot attack active radar units in the group.

HARM_cannot_launch.zip

I posted a similar situation with Indian Mig-27s over at Matrix's web site. Target definitely had radiating unit (was shooting down my a/c!). However this is not a consistent bug as I had the same loadout work successfully versus another, identical target in the previous mission.

 

DN

Yeah, this is a weird one. Seems to inconsistently make an appearance. I'm looking for a similar thing to happen in the Beta I'm currently using, but not so far (fingers crossed).

I posted a similar situation with Indian Mig-27s over at Matrix's web site. Target definitely had radiating unit (was shooting down my a/c!). However this is not a consistent bug as I had the same loadout work successfully versus another, identical target in the previous mission.

 

emphasis added by HH

 

I don't know what to tell you. I am able to repeat this bug over, and over, again, at will. I have loaded both saved game file and the original test scen so that others can do the same. I don't know about the MiG-27 situation since there is no test file for it.

 

I have re-attached them. They include the files:

 

Radar.SCq - test file for starting situation

 

1 Kill the base radar.hpq - the point where I launch HARM at Petropavlovsk (not the surrounding SAM batteries)

 

2 Radar dead.hpq - Radar at Petropavlovsk is now dead. The second wave of strikers is making their ingress

 

3 Second launch.hpq - When Petropavlovsk is selected as the target, I am able to launch SLAM at the base and HARM at the surrounding SAM batteries. I de-allocate all the HARM and only fire the SLAM at the main base. I then order the planes to loiter.

 

Once the SLAMs are launched, you can try to launch the HARM at the base and they cannot launch. This happens every time.

 

I hope that these steps are clear enough for others to replicate.

HARM_cannot_launch.zip

3 Second launch.hpq - When Petropavlovsk is selected as the target, I am able to launch SLAM at the base and HARM at the surrounding SAM batteries. I de-allocate all the HARM and only fire the SLAM at the main base. I then order the planes to loiter. Once the SLAMs are launched, you can try to launch the HARM at the base and they cannot launch. This happens every time. I hope that these steps are clear enough for others to replicate.

 

I'm able to replicate the problem. Curiously, I'm easily able to assign HARMs against the surrounding SAM batteries (i.e. the ones not grouped with Petropavlovsk itself). We're still working on the issue.

 

One other points (sorta off topic): A formation of 102 planes, Herman ? Clearly you believe this to be the Rotterdam Blitz.

Defect Name: HARM cannot launch

1. Order air group to attack ZZb or OOm.

 

Expected behaviour: Should be able to attack active radar in the group

Observed behaviour: Cannot attack active radar units in the group.

 

I don't know how to say this but you knocked out all of the radars in group OOm, they are all damaged or destroyed so the message about no valid weapons is well, valid. Will look at ZZb next.

I believe that the destruction of the Radar for OOm is quite impossible. The only missiles fired were directed at Petropavlovsk air base.

 

I just checked it, again. The SA-5 battery is radiating nice and strongly.

Sequence to reproduce:

1. Order air group to attack ZZb or OOm.

 

Expected behaviour: Should be able to attack active radar in the group

Observed behaviour: Cannot attack active radar units in the group.

 

ZZa is a yucky one, confirmed not that you didn't know that already... The code faces a bit of chicken and egg problem.

 

Solution 1:

Assume no enemy units are radiating.

Choose to attack and all you have are ARMs.

Weapon allocation dialog pops up, no weapons can be allocated, Target not radiating shows for all.

 

Solution 2:

Leave it broke.

 

For the moment those are the only two options. I think a 'real' fix is possible, just escapes me at the moment how to do it with a reasonable amount of code.

 

Note to Tony... Combat5.c:2358

I believe that the destruction of the Radar for OOm is quite impossible. The only missiles fired were directed at Petropavlovsk air base.

 

I just checked it, again. The SA-5 battery is radiating nice and strongly.

 

I believe you are wrong, OOm doesn't even have a SA-5 battery (and I double checked too, all of the radars are still damaged or destroyed in your save).

I believe that the destruction of the Radar for OOm is quite impossible. The only missiles fired were directed at Petropavlovsk air base.

 

I just checked it, again. The SA-5 battery is radiating nice and strongly.

 

I believe you are wrong, OOm doesn't even have a SA-5 battery (and I double checked too, all of the radars are still damaged or destroyed in your save).

 

I think that we've discovered another bug.

 

There could not be any damage to any other unit because the first group only launched 8 HARM at the ZZa (Petropavlovsk airbase). If in doubt, you could re-start from the beginning. I've included the test file Radar.SCq and the saved game file "1 Kill the base radar.hpq" You can re-start at either point to confirm for yourself that no missiles have been fired at any other target other than the air base.

 

There appears to be a display problem. I have selected the OOm group in the group display and it shows SA-10d Battery with 7 land units.

 

 

I then switch to the Unit window and I can't find any units for group OOm. I select one of the SA-5 units and it shows up as OO07 and radar is active when the Full Display is used. (see 2. OO07 Active)

 

 

However, it belongs to the ZZa group

 

 

I cycled through all the units in the Unit Window and not one of them actually belonged to the OOm Group.

 

Regarding the damage, you'll just have to believe me that nothing else was fired at. Otherwise, re-start the test on your own and only fire the 8 HARM at the airbase to confirm for yourself.

 

I think that you are seeing the units appear in yellow and incorrectly assuming that they have been damaged in some way. That is not the case. The first group only had 4 Intruders and 8 HARM. That's not even 1 missile / unit (assuming they all hit). To presume that the facilities have already been damaged is mathematically impossible especially since ZZ00 shows up with damage to its sensor in the Full Display.

Sequence to reproduce:

1. Order air group to attack ZZb or OOm.

 

Expected behaviour: Should be able to attack active radar in the group

Observed behaviour: Cannot attack active radar units in the group.

 

ZZa is a yucky one, confirmed not that you didn't know that already... The code faces a bit of chicken and egg problem.

 

Solution 1:

Assume no enemy units are radiating.

Choose to attack and all you have are ARMs.

Weapon allocation dialog pops up, no weapons can be allocated, Target not radiating shows for all.

 

Solution 2:

Leave it broke.

 

For the moment those are the only two options. I think a 'real' fix is possible, just escapes me at the moment how to do it with a reasonable amount of code.

 

Note to Tony... Combat5.c:2358

That sounds just horrible, to leave it broken. However, solution #1 sounds even worse than the current problem. If implemented, I think it would kill any situation involving ARMs and prevent them from every firing. At least with the current situation, there is a chance of them releasing. From your description, it looks as though #1 would prevent them altogether.

 

IIRC, in the distant past, ARMs could be fired at all units even if they weren't radiating. Perhaps that was the original work-around to this problem.

 

From my non-programmer perspective, it looks like the only way to fix the problem is to have the engine examine all components within the group and see if they are eligible targets and not focus only on just the first unit "XX00". I am curious as to why it seems insurmountable.

 

When you launch fighters and order them to intercept ships, if they have no ASuW weapons, the Assistant promptly tells you that the group cannot be intercepted. Apparently, it seems to work in that situation. Can't that be expanded to cover every instance the player hits the F1 Attack button?

I think that we've discovered another bug. There could not be any damage to any other unit because the first group only launched 8 HARM at the ZZa (Petropavlovsk airbase). If in doubt, you could re-start from the beginning. I've included the test file Radar.SCq and the saved game file "1 Kill the base radar.hpq" You can re-start at either point to confirm for yourself that no missiles have been fired at any other target other than the air base. There appears to be a display problem. I have selected the OOm group in the group display and it shows SA-10d Battery with 7 land units. I then switch to the Unit window and I can't find any units for group OOm. I select one of the SA-5 units and it shows up as OO07 and radar is active when the Full Display is used.

 

You know, of course, that the OOm group is sort of a 'temporary' title (Tony would know the appropriate programmer's terminology here) for units that have not yet been associated as belonging to a 'real' group like ZZa or the SAM battery ZYm arrayed nearby.

 

I tried your savegames again. I launched all of the SLAMs at Petropavlovsk, and then switched to HARMs to try and attack Petropavlovsk again with those. As before, I wasn't able to attack the base with HARMs. Taking a closer at the Unit group window, though, I was able to determine that there weren't any ZZa units there. I had lost contact with them as ZZa units and they were all OOm units. Naturally I couldn't engage ZZa with HARMs because there weren't any units belonging to it to engage.

 

I am hesitant to label this as a 'bug'. Your savegame(s) were the only instances where I've had any difficulty using ARMs, and to my admittedly untrained eye it seems like more of a target and unit name assignment issue than a problem with the ARMs themselves. It might not even be a problem at all.

I tried your savegames again. I launched all of the SLAMs at Petropavlovsk, and then switched to HARMs to try and attack Petropavlovsk again with those. As before, I wasn't able to attack the base with HARMs. Taking a closer at the Unit group window, though, I was able to determine that there weren't any ZZa units there. I had lost contact with them as ZZa units and they were all OOm units. Naturally I couldn't engage ZZa with HARMs because there weren't any units belonging to it to engage.

 

I am hesitant to label this as a 'bug'. Your savegame(s) were the only instances where I've had any difficulty using ARMs, and to my admittedly untrained eye it seems like more of a target and unit name assignment issue than a problem with the ARMs themselves. It might not even be a problem at all.

I must disagree. When you do the initial SLAM-ER attack on Petropavlovsk, you are able to attack all the other associated sites like SAMs and Radar. Obviously, the engine is able to locate those units and includes them in the Weapons Allocation window. For it not to be able to find them on the second attack just seems illogical.

 

Entire discussion moved to Mantis #2422.

Using "HARM cannot launch", this seems to be confirmed with 2008.002.

I wonder if this has anything to do with intergrating the Land units/groups into the program.

If you click AIU in either the Group or Unit window for a Full report, it gives a report on the sensor status.

If you click WTM in the Group window, a Full report show the radar is on, but also that there are no subs and nothing is damaged or afire, none of which applies to Land units. If you do that with the Unit windown, it shows the unit has radar but not whether it is active or not.

In the current beta I discovered the same behavior; as soon as an ARM has hit the XY00 unit of the XY group, it will not be possible to attack the XY group with ARM for a certain while, even the XY group is attacked with SLAM-ER's and other formation untis use radar-guided SAM for defence.

This behavior happen with land groups, bases and surface groups.

 

 

Sequence to reproduce:

1. Order air group to attack ZZb or OOm.

 

Expected behaviour: Should be able to attack active radar in the group

Observed behaviour: Cannot attack active radar units in the group.

 

ZZa is a yucky one, confirmed not that you didn't know that already... The code faces a bit of chicken and egg problem.

 

Solution 1:

Assume no enemy units are radiating.

Choose to attack and all you have are ARMs.

Weapon allocation dialog pops up, no weapons can be allocated, Target not radiating shows for all.

 

Solution 2:

Leave it broke.

 

For the moment those are the only two options. I think a 'real' fix is possible, just escapes me at the moment how to do it with a reasonable amount of code.

 

Note to Tony... Combat5.c:2358

 

That sounds just horrible, to leave it broken. However, solution #1 sounds even worse than the current problem. If implemented, I think it would kill any situation involving ARMs and prevent them from every firing. At least with the current situation, there is a chance of them releasing. From your description, it looks as though #1 would prevent them altogether.

 

IIRC, in the distant past, ARMs could be fired at all units even if they weren't radiating. Perhaps that was the original work-around to this problem.

 

From my non-programmer perspective, it looks like the only way to fix the problem is to have the engine examine all components within the group and see if they are eligible targets and not focus only on just the first unit "XX00". I am curious as to why it seems insurmountable.

 

When you launch fighters and order them to intercept ships, if they have no ASuW weapons, the Assistant promptly tells you that the group cannot be intercepted. Apparently, it seems to work in that situation. Can't that be expanded to cover every instance the player hits the F1 Attack button?

 

From my point of view, with solution 1 it will be possible to attack at least with ARM's.