Does each missile of a "raid" need to be detected in order for it to be engaged? In this engagement I played it yes.

 

4x very small signature, sea skimming RGM-84D's fired at a detected Sovremenny Type 956EM Destroyer at a range of 60nm. Initially two were detected, by the Mineral-ME 3D radar, at a range of 9.0nm and engaged by both Yozh mounts in the 2nd fire phase of an Engagement Turn. I halved the ROF to 3 missiles each mount. I believe this to be wrong but wanted to give the Sovremennyy a fighters chance.

 

In the very next Movement Phase the 6x Grizzlies engage and destroy the 2 detected Harpoons. Also 14 more, 7+7, Grizzlies launch from the Sovremennyy. The destroyer then detects one more, the third Harpoon. In the 2nd Movement phase, the 14 grizzlies happen to destroy the single detected Harpoon.

 

The remaining Harpoon is never detected and as I see it, since it is undetected, it is not engaged by the point defense Kashtan CADS-N-1 systems.

 

The Harpoon activated it radar and since the Sovremennyy is the only target, locks onto the destroyer. The small signature destroyer with 3rd generation J&D versus the 3rd generation seeker results in a pH 42%. The harpoon roll is exactly 42, inflicting 45 damage points and rolling for criticals. 5 criticals are then determined to be minor flooding, a major fire, and rudder damage.

 

I understand the Larry stated that detection should now be considered automatic, but went with the old rule of pD 60% in engagement turns. Would the destroyers 3rd Gen ESM provide enough detection of the harpoon's seeker to engage? I wouldn't think so.

I would play it the same way, detecting each incoming missile. Just look at Top Gun and one plane masking another, detecting each individual incoming missile emulates some of that confusion. In HC there can be up to 255 missiles in each 'unit' that gets detected, it has no bearing on this discussion but I think I'd rather more gradually figure out there are 255 incoming missiles than see it all at once.

 

As for your point defense, I can't see how it wouldn't get a clean shot off at the first incoming Harpoon and any subsequent missiles within the parameters of the mount's tracking capabilities. Assuming decent weather where the point defense system actually stands a chance of picking out the sea skimming Harpoons from the wavetops.

As for your point defense, I can't see how it wouldn't get a clean shot off at the first incoming Harpoon and any subsequent missiles within the parameters of the mount's tracking capabilities. Assuming decent weather where the point defense system actually stands a chance of picking out the sea skimming Harpoons from the wavetops.

Thanks for chiming in Tony. I am/was hesitant with the Kashtan CADS-N-1 systems since, I believe, its robotic, and the remaining harpoon was still undetected. I will have to go back to the data annex and see what other fire control it has.

 

I'm still open-minded enough to be persuaded.

Don't forget the CADS-N-1/Kashtan has its own radar (Hot Flash) - actually two, one search & track and one missile guidance - as well as an electro-optical system with both TV/optical and IR channels. Targets are designated by the ship's prime air search radar and then the CIWS system is then cued. Also, don't forget those nasty little SA-N-11 missiles!

Don't forget the CADS-N-1/Kashtan has its own radar (Hot Flash) - actually two, one search & track and one missile guidance - as well as an electro-optical system with both TV/optical and IR channels. Targets are designated by the ship's prime air search radar and then the CIWS system is then cued. Also, don't forget those nasty little SA-N-11 missiles!

 

Thanks Brad, I'm all over the CADS-N-1 combo 30mm and SA-N-11.

 

The issue here is that two components of a "raid" were initially detected. Around the point that those two missiles were intercepted and destroyed, a third component missile was detected, and subsequently engaged. I would understand that the ship and its sensors are now oriented toward and keyed into the threat sector.

 

Now, from the smoke of the 3rd missile's destruction, screaming along is the previously undetected, solitary survivor of the four missile raid. It goes into its terminal maneuvers to plunge into the target.

 

It was within a 30 second Engagement Turn, from the detectionand engagement, of the third missile to impact. Since the ships primary AS radar did not detect it, would the CADS-N-1, or any other CIWS, get that one shot.

 

I suppose that I should be rolling for detection by all applicable AS and 3D radars on the ship. I got hung up using the Mineral-ME since it would have been the first to detect the raid. Also the other-than-radar methods of detection for the CADS-N-1.

 

Thanks

The issue here is that two components of a "raid" were initially detected. Around the point that those two missiles were intercepted and destroyed, a third component missile was detected, and subsequently engaged. I would understand that the ship and its sensors are now oriented toward and keyed into the threat sector.

 

I'm of the mindset that once a 'raid' is initially detected, all sensors (including the Mark 1 eyeball) are already 'primed' and cued to evaluate that threat. We all know that a single incoming Harpoon is pretty rare, and attackers (especially an attacker trying to kill a Sovremenny) is going to shoot en masse in the hopes of overwhelming the defenses. So, crew and sensors are actively looking for and expecting more missiles. From the sounds of this raid, they're all coming from a single direction?

 

I think once you detect the first one, detection of follow-on missiles is quite likely.

I'm of the mindset that once a 'raid' is initially detected, all sensors (including the Mark 1 eyeball) are already 'primed' and cued to evaluate that threat. We all know that a single incoming Harpoon is pretty rare, and attackers (especially an attacker trying to kill a Sovremenny) is going to shoot en masse in the hopes of overwhelming the defenses. So, crew and sensors are actively looking for and expecting more missiles. From the sounds of this raid, they're all coming from a single direction?

 

I think once you detect the first one, detection of follow-on missiles is quite likely.

 

Yes - single direction. No, not a true tactical exercise, just trying to gauge the effectiveness of the Harpoon since the discussion yesterday and realizing that there were only 8 ASuW weapons, RGM-84D's on the Bunker Hill Class CG. May try it again this weekend with all 8 harpoon, all sensors and your take on the likelihood of all vampires being detected. It will get worse for the 2 Brahmos equipped Rajput and SS-N-25 equipped Delhi take on the Type-956EM, although the BrahMos (SS-N-26 stats) may just get through, we'll have to see.

Correction the Rajput carries two mounts of 2, for a total of four PJ-10 BrahMos (SS-N-26).

 

I did a quick strike today - not a tactical exercise, just to see what the BrohMos is capable of. An Indian SAG containing a PJ-10 equipped Rajput DDG is 100nm from its intended PLAN Sovremennyy DDG. A helo launched from the Indian SAG detects the target and the Indian commander designates it hostile.

 

Rajput fires all four of its BrahMos missiles. These stealthy missiles fly at 1,650kts. I first ran a 3 minute tactical turn, closing the distance a whopping 82,5nm so the range is now 17.5nm. 30 second Engagement Turns are declared.

 

In the 1st Movement Phase, the raid closes to a distance of 10.6nm. Detection ranges for the Sovremenny's Top Plate B and Positive-ME1 versus stealthy targets are 6 and 4nm respectively, so detection is not possible this turn. In the 2nd Movement Phase, the raid closes to 3.8nm.

 

2nd Engagement Turn: In the First Movement Phase, the missiles reach the target. Before impact, they pause for the CIWS to get in their shot. Since the raid is technically undetected, I allowed the two 30mm of the CADS-N-1 to get in an OP directed shot. The CADS long and short ranges , and their pH's are 1.8nm and 0.9nm, and 50% and 85% respectively. Air Defense Gun Hit Chance Modifiers lower the long and short chances to 12.5% and 30%, due to -10 target speed over 1,000kts, -15 Stealthy Target, and chance*0.5 due to OP directed attack. The CADS 30mm both miss.

 

Two BrahMos strike the vessel and two are seduced by ECM, jammers and decoys or otherwise miss. Each BrahMos strikes home with 50DP each. One critical is rolled "Rudder". If not crippled, the destroyer is severely hampered. On the bright side, it took the shot, and all weapons systems are still a go.

 

It would seem the best way to avoid this fate is to keep an eye on these equipped units and prioritize their destruction/neutralization before becoming a victim.

A slight question/correction/clarification came up yesterday discussion this on Harpgamer IRC chat. The H4.1 Data Annex lists the CADS-N-1's FC Modes as RA, EO, OP. It seems unlikely that this type of system, P/S (2xR)2 Kashtan [CADS-N-1], would have an OP Fire Contro Mode.

 

In Remarks it also lists the mount as "A" Autonomous, which is described further in 5.1.2 Autonomous Weapons Systems. One of the take aways there is "...Some of the newer fire control systems , however, are fully automated, and can select the most threatening target, shoot at it, decide if it's been killed, and then fire again or select another, all without human intervention..."

 

In regard to the undetected BrahMos, I will need to game out possible ESM detection of the missiles radar seeker, as well as possible CADs-N-1 fire control direction in EO mode.

 

MTF. Questions or comments?

6.4.1.1 Air Defense Guns discusses Electro-Optic (EO) direction. "...indicates that the gun system uses low-level light cameras, regualr TV cameras or IR sensors and ususally a laser range finderto provide all of the data that is necessary to correctly aim the gun.

 

That then raises the when would the target be detected by the IR/Laser? Off to 4.6 Infrared Sensors. All IR Sensors have an 80% pD each Tactical Turn, and a 50% pD each Engagement Turn. IR Detection is dependent upon the sensor generation. Since the only indication of the CADS-N-1's generation is the 3rd Generation Kortik [sA-N-11 Grison] missile. So a 3rd Generation Sensor attempting to detect a supersonic missile is 10nm.

 

Attacking missile speed, and Engagement Turn structure, is still a big factor as it still blows through the detection/engagement window before either the F/A(1)2 Yozh [sA-N-7b "READ:SA-N-12" Grissly] or CADS-N-1 (both gun and SA-N-11's) can technically engage.

 

In situations like this, a second detection phase within an Engagement Turn could be argued for.

With some clarification from DaveShoe and the guys here on HG, I offer the following.

 

4x PJ-10 BrahMos launch at 100nm

 

BhahMos speed: 1,650kts (6.875nm/Movement Phase, 13.75nm/Engagement Turn). Attack Speed: 2,310kts (9.625nm last Movement Phase). Stealthy RCS.

 

Targets AS vs Stealthy

Top Plate B: 12nm

Positive-ME1: 4nm

 

1x 3min TacTurn, Range to target now 17.5nm.

 

Engagement Turns Invoked.

 

ET1

1st Move: Raid moves 6.875. Range to target now 10.625nm.

1st Fire – N/A

1st AA Resolution – N/A

Detection: Range 10.625nm

Top Plate B: Yes, using 60% pD, 2x PJ-10 detected.

Positive-ME1: No

2nd Move: Raid moves 6.875. Range to target now 3.75nm

2nd Fire – 7x F(1)1 Yozh, 7x A(1)1 Yozh, and 8x SA-N-11 Grison launch (will only move ½ distance in next Movement Phase.

2nd AA Resolution – N/A

 

ET2

1st Move: Raid increase speed to 2,310kts. SAM’s move 1/2.

Yozh (8.25nm per phase *.5 = 4.125). @ 5 secs = 1.375nm. 2sec = 0.55

Grison (7.45nm per phase *.5 = 3.725nm). @ 5 secs = 1.242nm. 2sec = 0.5

PJ-10 (9.625 per phase). @ 5secs = 3.208nm. @ 2sec = 1.2832

 

The PJ-10 is swift enough that interception with SAM’s is at a range of just over 1nm. This range is below the min range (1.9nm) of the SA-N-12 Grizzlies so they are is disqualified.

 

The 8x SA-N-11’s have a min range of 0.5nm and an ATA of 6.5.

Defender (PJ-10) ATA = 0.5 (cruise msl) + 1 (speed >1,000kts) +1 (SSC vs SS) +2 (3rd Gen missile vs stealthy target).

 

The rating differential is +2, which equals an Air Combat Percentage of 50%.

 

03, 26, 11, 58, 32, 02, 99, 03. Six hits. Rolled randomly, 5 vs 1 BrahMos, 1 vs another.

 

The remaining two, though not detected by radar, would (I think) be detected by EO/IR so the CADS-N-1 30mm/54 Kashtan gets one burst.

Short Range: pH 85% - 10 (target speed >1,000kts), -15 (stealthy target) = 60%

 

Long Range: pH 50% - 10 (target speed >1,000kts), -15 (stealthy target) = 25%

 

2d10 = 94. Miss!

 

3rd Gen seeker vs 3rd Gen J&D: pH = 42

 

Rolls 05, 94. One hit. 50DP

 

149-50 = 99. Damage Ratio 50/99 = .50. d6 = 4 or 4 Critical Hits.

 

4xd10 = 5 (Sensor), 9 (Bridge/CIC), 5 (Sensor), 6 (Flooding).

 

Sensor: one by random. 6 radar sets and 1 sonar set. 1d10 (8-9 re roll) = 6 Positiv-ME1 knocked out.

 

Bridge/CIC: Ship continues its current movement orders for d6 tactical turns, 1d6 = 5 or 15min. Thereafter, it takes 1 full tactical turn to execute any change in course.

 

Flooding: 1d10 for severity. D10 = 1. Minor. Ship will lose 2% of its original damage points (2.98) per Intermediate Turn (30mins) until flooding is isolated. Roll d10 each Plotting Phase 1-4 (-2%), 5-8 Isolated, 9-10 Flooding increases (-2%). For laughs, I rolled 1d10 = 8. Flooding was isolated.

Apparently both the ROF of the SAMs is halved as well as the movement, which will take place in the subsequent 1st Movement Phase.

 

Both constraints are due to the SAM's firing in the 2nd Fire Phase.