I've encountered the L-39 Albatros in at least a couple of scenarios. One MEDC and one WestPac. In both of these games, I have found that the plane is pretty stealthy. I mean that it appears at about the same range that I would expect a Stealth bomber to show up - visual range. Could you possibly take another look at the RCS value for this plane? I can understand if it is a small plane, but my experience has it virtually invisible.

I checked this out. Turns out the L-39 has the same RCS rating in the HCDB as do many other aircraft of its size and vintage. No obvious problems here.

Thanks.

After some further research ... you shouldn't feel too terrible if an L-39 manages to put the hurt on you.

 

Apparently, during the recent NATO Air Meet 2005 exercise in Orland, Norway, a Czech Air Force L-159 ALCA (a very similar aircraft, albeit somewhat more advanced) was able to target and "shoot down" an F-16 (Norwegian ?). I don't know if that speaks to the caliber of the aircraft, the skill of the Czech pilot or the failure of the Norwegian pilot, or a combination of all three, but at the very least, it tells you to never underestimate your opponent.

I don't know if that speaks to the caliber of the aircraft, the skill of the Czech pilot or the failure of the Norwegian pilot, or a combination of all three, but at the very least, it tells you to never underestimate your opponent.

 

That's one of those mistakes you usually only get to make once.

 

As for the RCS, I've found that the current model is much...more accurate in a way than previous Harpoon games. Not only do you read about small craft being able to make suprise attacks in the fluff, now they can actually accomplish it. I find it adds a lot to the game, both in design and playing, because now those small missile boats can actually hurt something.

 

I've also found it highly irritating (in a fun way) when the computer manages to sneak some small planes or boats in and attack what I thought was a relatively safe location. It really hurts to have a group of light attack aircraft sneak through air defenses and bomb your base, especially when they don't show up till they are about 50 miles out and all your CAPs are engaged elsewhere.

I agree, Akula. I think the RCS model (thank you, Tony !) has added a new level to the sim and can really demand that you stay on your toes. The RCS ratings are not perfect by any means (I don't use a mathematical model or chart of known or "expected" radar cross section values down to the 0.0001 sq.m, for example), but they generally follow the H4.1 signature rules.

 

If I am surprised by an aircraft that I thought I should have detected, then most times I like to chalk it up to the enemy's clever use of terrain to mask his approach. Terrain is not modeled in HCCE, but with a little imagination ...

 

I think most players who are uncomfortable with being surprised this way have become too accustomed to the "old way" of playing Harpoon Classic. They need to start thinking "outside the box", because their foe most certainly will.

I think most players who are uncomfortable with being surprised this way have become too accustomed to the "old way" of playing Harpoon Classic. They need to start thinking "outside the box", because their foe most certainly will. 

I quite agree. Although the fighters might be a bit more stealthy than I would like, the fact that they can pull off some nasty surprises is quite welcome. It certainly keeps me on my toes. No longer can I keep the AEW escorts at the edge of the radar coverage. I gotta keep them damned close in or else suffer the consequences from the 'ninjas'.

I'll add a little fuel to the fire by agreeing that the RCS numbers aren't perfect, but it is our duty to nudge Brad as we see fit and argue for changes to better reflect what we think is reality. Two factors came together to really help enemy planes sneak up on the player.

 

1. Loiter turn rate was vastly decreased by us quite a while back, before the new radar model if memory serves (it should be in the release notes somewhere). HC does model a 60 degree radar arc for non-360 flagged planes. So that F-14 that used to be doing impossibly tight circles giving great radar coverage is now doing somewhat lazier circles, leaving gaps in coverage.

 

2. The new radar model allows so much more stealthy platforms and many gradations of stealthiness next to what we had that getting used to it takes some play time.

 

Brad is quite open to informed disconsent about RCS numbers and other database values, give him some good test cases and reasoning to change a value and often he will, not always, but often

 

Take care all, and keep up the game chatter!

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but IMO I don't think any of us is really looking for 100% accuracy out of the RCS model. We want believability sure, and having stuff appear out of nowhere while not 100% accurate to the RCS is both realistic and believable. Surprise attacks do happen.

 

And it is just a game after all, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be fun. Little surprises are always nice as they add another dimension to the game. Now I have to plan my strikes, plan my defense, and be sure to leave enough reserves to deal with those units that manage to completely sneak by my defenses. Its not the things you can see that hurt you, its the stuff that you don't know about that will. That happens in battle all the time.

 

Its rather cliche`, but the truth is that the enemy only attacks when you are least prepared for it; and they never attack where you expect them too.

Well put, Akula. 100% accuracy would be impossible to achieve, in any event. We're not Lockheed Martin or Boeing (if, hypothetically speaking, their RCS testing facilities were in fact able to achieve 100% accuracy ... ).

 

Tony makes a good point about loiter turn rate, one that I hadn't thought about much until now. Most of the reports of "sneak attacks" have involved their combat air patrol (CAP) aircraft being caught with their pants down. It may be that players will have to put more thought into setting up their patrols rather than simply sending their aircraft to a specific point on the map.

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but IMO I don't think any of us is really looking for 100% accuracy out of the RCS model.  We want believability sure, and having stuff appear out of nowhere while not 100% accurate to the RCS is both realistic and believable.  Surprise attacks do happen.

 

And it is just a game after all, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be fun.  Little surprises are always nice as they add another dimension to the game.  Now I have to plan my strikes, plan my defense, and be sure to leave enough reserves to deal with those units that manage to completely sneak by my defenses.  Its not the things you can see that hurt you, its the stuff that you don't know about that will.  That happens in battle all the time.

Couldn't have said it any better. It is just a game. The fact that AEW planes and CAP can be jumped is more important than a perfect RCS model/table.

 

Tony makes a good point about loiter turn rate, one that I hadn't thought about much until now.

That little factoid is going to really help me with my CAP in the future.

 

I'll be certain to plot courses back and forth towards the enemy instead of placing the CAP on a single point source. This way, at least my radar will be pointed at the enemy 50% of the time.

 

In a perfect world, it would be better if we could have planes on loiter could fly back and forth along the axis of their plotted path. This way, you could plot a path towards the enemy and then place the A/C on loiter. They could fly back and forth along the path even if they don't actually move away from the point. At least it would point the radar in the correct direction. Ah, but it's a nice dream....

Tony makes a good point about loiter turn rate, one that I hadn't thought about much until now. Most of the reports of "sneak attacks" have involved their combat air patrol (CAP) aircraft being caught with their pants down. It may be that players will have to put more thought into setting up their patrols rather than simply sending their aircraft to a specific point on the map.

Tony forgot one other small tidbit, radar detections are only run once every 30 seconds