Mark Gellis put forth a question in the HUD4 forums. How to improve the reception of HUD4. I'm going to give my 2 cents on the name of the topic, "Beating the competition."

 

In order to think about beating the competition you might want an understanding of the competition. There used to be more competition, now it pretty much is down to PDB. Frankly I can't even say that HUD4 is competing with PDB, PDB is it right now, period.

 

Anyway, PDB's creator is the one and only Herman Hum. A few things to note about Herman:

• Herman has a seemingly endless supply of time to devote to his passions.
  
• Herman is not afraid to learn and will learn in order to accomplish his goals.
  
• Herman is more of a forest person than a tree person
  
• Despite the being a forest person by default, Herman will dig into the details and use his...
  
• Unbounded Persistance
  

For those reasons I've said things like:

• Herman produces very high quality bug reports and a volume of them unmatched by anyone in Harpoon's history.
  
• I have yet to see a HC bug report from Herman that has no merit. We may not have agreed on bug vs feature vs expected behavior but that is beside the point when testing.
  
• Herman and company have been a major force in destroying the Harpoon community, certainly not the only force, but a large force.
  

 

My general feeling is summed up by saying that Bond should say, "Forget the old guard, give the game to Herman & Co since they have the largest active following." Being of that old guard my view of Bond would greatly decrease but computer Harpoon would live on.

 

See also: http://www.computerharpoon.com/

•We don't have any big plans for the commercial products right now... We are working several angles to re-vitalize the commercial product(s). Summer 2012 is a really good time for qualified investors or dev teams to contact me.

that from Don Gilman, current rights holder to computer Harpoon.

 

 

Given the above, if you are stubborn enough, these are the things I think are needed in order to beat the competition:

• The database must have a single ultimately responsible maintainer.
  
• The database will need multiple editors in order to beat the competition, a competition with a huge lead.
  
• The database should be hosted in a version control system or even better be a web-accessible editor so that multiple editors can work on the database simultaneously.
  
• The database must have a drop-dead simple installer. I sent a template to Ralf for a HUD4 installer better than PDB's (which I also initially created back in the days Herman was more a force for the positive).
  
• A team of people needs to greet every new forum member across a range of forums as soon as they sign up (for Harpoon specific sites) or as soon as they post Harpoon inquiries (general sites). Herman & Co are the first contact for most new players and first contact is all it takes.
  
• A team of people needs to understand the game and the database and be able to answer questions intelligently and quickly. Herman & Co have had the corner on this market since HHQ got smart and bailed.
  
• Scenarios need to be written. They need not be perfect or large or realistic but they need to exist and be publicized. They needn't be hosted all over tarnation but if someone wants to manage that nightmare, go for it. They should all be in the single installer anyway (see PDB and HHQ approaches to databases).
  
• Make it easy, which in large part is covered by packaging the database, scenarios, and any other collateral in an easy to use installer.
  
• Write AARs, some can include videos, some can be PDFs, but they better be numerous and they better have screenshots if they aren't videos.
  
• Don't sign your database over to the Harpoon rights holder or publisher. I think this was a huge mistake by Darren and has helped limit HUD4. The community is the ONLY way forward, closed and limited will not work.
  

 

If you ask for my thoughts in a nutshell:

1. The competition can't realistically be beaten, they have to fail on their own
   
2. If you don't believe #1, you need a huge amount of time. Even establishing the base of skills needed may take years, they just don't exist anymore outside of Herman & Co.
   
3. HUD4 is not a tool to use in beating the competition as long as it remains a closed solution. Start from scratch and document sources.
   

Oh, and I hope someone makes competition happen, just like for HUD4, we're here to enable and aid and do what we can from an infrastructure and advice basis.

I am hoping to see Gunny's comments on this. Tony's suggestions sound like they would make it much easier to update the database quickly, catch errors and bugs, add more platforms, etc. And it would probably reduce Gunny's workload in this area tremendously. I think one thing affecting HUD-4 right now is that so much depends on one person who, as far as I know, does this all as a labor of love and does not get paid for it. That's a huge burden. Tony's ideas might require some changes, but these may be changes that have to happen to allow the HUD-4 to reach its full potential.

 

Comments? Thoughts? Observations?

I am hoping to see Gunny's comments on this. Tony's suggestions sound like they would make it much easier to update the database quickly, catch errors and bugs, add more platforms, etc. And it would probably reduce Gunny's workload in this area tremendously. I think one thing affecting HUD-4 right now is that so much depends on one person who, as far as I know, does this all as a labor of love and does not get paid for it. That's a huge burden. Tony's ideas might require some changes, but these may be changes that have to happen to allow the HUD-4 to reach its full potential.

 

Comments? Thoughts? Observations?

 

Gunny has written [here] and commented elsewhere that there won't be distributed editing of HUD4. Hopefully that stance will change in the future but there is no guarantee and I for one haven't heard what restrictions AGSI and/or Matrix have placed on Gunny and HUD4.

 

The distributed approach has benefits but also challenges, especially unless and until we/they make a database editor meant for distributed editing (notably the ability for the central maintainer to approve or reject individual changes). The initial distributed approach I'm advocating depends in large part upon each editor producing quality work because it would be difficult (not impossible, just difficult) for Gunny to review the changes. The good news is he would be able to reject or accept a whole batch of changes at once (i.e. Mark checks out the HUD4 files, makes 20 changes, checks them back in. Gunny can then roll back to the pre-Mark version almost instantaneously and ask him to try again if Gunny doesn't approve of some of the changes.).

 

As far as beating the competition, DB work would be only a small part of that effort. If you want to build a database that you like and don't care about beating the competition that could certainly be undertaken but still needs a leader and supporting cast. That is tougher to accomplish without beating the competition but not impossible. Don't expect the attacks to end though in that case, expect them to continue unabated. This is kind of like HC. We have no intention of making it challenge H3 or any other game, we're mainly making it better for ourselves and adding capabilities requested by the community as we are able to prioritize them in. I think that is also akin to the approach Dale took with ADB for H3. It does what he wants so therefore it pleases him.

It does what he wants so therefore it pleases him.

 

Here is where I think you may have a disconnect with Gunny. My reading of the situation is that you and he have very different goals for HUD4. A question is whether they are compatible enough to get you each what you want?

Debate will be very short for me.... I have no time to loose in futile arguments on which DB is superior to an other one. Answer is obvious: Ragnar created DB2k, Herman copied it. Ragnar created SBR, Herman copied it. Dale made a Youtube channel for Harpoon, guys from Plagiarized DB created their own. Darren wanted to add nice pictures of platforms, guess what, there is the same idea in PDB folks... No original idea, just pale copies of other ideas.

And the best: advertisement... even on third parties forums. Ask marineforum.net guys...

 

I will not engage in any competition, since to the difference of PDB folks, I have a life and everybody should understand very clear that I work on Harpoon when there is free time, not an easy thing at my level of responsibility and current assignment. So Herman and Co can make all the noise they want, they just need to buy themselves a life. I don't need to advertise for myself, my work will speak for me, as it spoke for me in real life.

 

I will not divert of my position to not to give access to other persons to the code of HUD4. It means much more work for me, but the risk to have the codes in wrong hands shouldn't occur. Sorry I prefer in-game Forgers than the PDB Forger polk. There's no competition with such people, not in sport ,not in Harpoon either. Just my opinion.

Debate will be very short for me.... I have no time to loose in futile arguments on which DB is superior to an other one. Answer is obvious: Ragnar created DB2k, Herman copied it. Ragnar created SBR, Herman copied it. Dale made a Youtube channel for Harpoon, guys from Plagiarized DB created their own. Darren wanted to add nice pictures of platforms, guess what, there is the same idea in PDB folks... No original idea, just pale copies of other ideas.

And the best: advertisement... even on third parties forums. Ask marineforum.net guys...

 

I will not engage in any competition, since to the difference of PDB folks, I have a life and everybody should understand very clear that I work on Harpoon when there is free time, not an easy thing at my level of responsibility and current assignment. So Herman and Co can make all the noise they want, they just need to buy themselves a life. I don't need to advertise for myself, my work will speak for me, as it spoke for me in real life.

 

I will not divert of my position to not to give access to other persons to the code of HUD4. It means much more work for me, but the risk to have the codes in wrong hands shouldn't occur. Sorry I prefer in-game Forgers than the PDB Forger polk. There's no competition with such people, not in sport ,not in Harpoon either. Just my opinion.

 

I'm going to re-post (and revise) some comments I made on another thread, as I think they are relevant here...

 

First, I'm really not trying to slam on the Players Database. For good or ill, it is out there. I can't do anything about it. In fact, the last thing I wanted was to get sucked into this issue, get people upset and talking about it again, etc. I'm really sorry about that.

 

My real point is that I just personally prefer the HUD-4 and I would like to see more people use it more often. I don't even care which database is "better"--I like the HUD-4, I like the way it "feels," I don't feel guilty about using it, and I want it to be as good as it can be. As far as just making the database better--more accurate, fewer bugs, etc.--Gunny has taken on that job. It is a big job and I appreciate what he does. I sometimes wish he would let more people help him, but he is the database editor and I defer to his decision.

 

Mind you, we might want to ask Gunny, every so often, "So, this doing everything for the database...how is that working out for you?" And then, after he glares at us for a while, add, "Are you sure you don't want a little help?"

 

My question remains what can be done to get more people interested in the HUD-4, get them use it, play with it, to write scenarios with it, etc.? I suspect that part of it is just writing more scenarios and posting AARs about them. The more that HUD-4 offers, not only for designers but players, too, the more people will use it. For my part, I enjoy writing scenarios with HUD-4 so I will keep doing that. I will post them here and anywhere else I think they will get good exposure.

 

I hope that other members of these forums will help out by writing more of their own HUD-4 scenarios. I think that is going to be a big part making HUD-4 better, better known, more commonly used, etc. It isn't going to work if I'm the only one writing scenarios for the HUD-4. We need more people to get involved at this end of it. If people are struggling for "plots," I'd be happy to throw out some ideas for other people to develop.

For as long as I have been involved with database editing, I can see both sides to the comments above.

 

1) I don't have the time nor does my ADD make it easy for me to do a Database by myself. YES I am making a World War II database that MIGHT revolutionize how Future Harpoon games are built, But it might blow up as a big waste of time too.

2) Francois is exactly right when it comes to editing a Database, the more hands involved the LONGER time spent discussing and the less time actually doing. However that is an issue of personality and organization and not an issue of every one every time. And then you have issues when someone copies your work and makes it "their own."

3) The existing Access editor for Harpoon3 is GOOD. But it is not GREAT. Tony is exactly right that a web-based change logging Access type editor would be better, actually allow colaboration and more importantly allow the lead to follow up with people and help them improve and work into the DB the way the lead DB programmer (because that is what we are) wants.

4) the most important point I would like to bring, While there have been MILES of improvement in Harpoon3 ANW it is still very buggy(realism wise.) It is based on the Miniature Harpoon3 rules which themselves were not completely implemented. Now I do NOT think Any future Computer Harpoon should turn into a number crunching version of the Miniature game. HOWEVER, programers, developers and we the players need to be cognizant to the fact that things WILL be different between the table top and the computer game. The Computer game has the potential of so much... MORE, yet in my experience everyone wants to limit it to the table top game. The Harpoon4.1 and upcoming Harpoon5 rule-sets have many miles of improved realism vs the old Harpoon 3 Mini rules, yet little of that can be supported by the Current game engine.

 

In short a major change needs to be done to the GAME before Others will have the inertia to overcome the PDB in-so-far as the following of players.

 

Now where is my winning lottery ticket.

For as long as I have been involved with database editing, I can see both sides to the comments above.

 

1) I don't have the time nor does my ADD make it easy for me to do a Database by myself. YES I am making a World War II database that MIGHT revolutionize how Future Harpoon games are built, But it might blow up as a big waste of time too.

2) Francois is exactly right when it comes to editing a Database, the more hands involved the LONGER time spent discussing and the less time actually doing. However that is an issue of personality and organization and not an issue of every one every time. And then you have issues when someone copies your work and makes it "their own."

3) The existing Access editor for Harpoon3 is GOOD. But it is not GREAT. Tony is exactly right that a web-based change logging Access type editor would be better, actually allow colaboration and more importantly allow the lead to follow up with people and help them improve and work into the DB the way the lead DB programmer (because that is what we are) wants.

4) the most important point I would like to bring, While there have been MILES of improvement in Harpoon3 ANW it is still very buggy(realism wise.) It is based on the Miniature Harpoon3 rules which themselves were not completely implemented. Now I do NOT think Any future Computer Harpoon should turn into a number crunching version of the Miniature game. HOWEVER, programers, developers and we the players need to be cognizant to the fact that things WILL be different between the table top and the computer game. The Computer game has the potential of so much... MORE, yet in my experience everyone wants to limit it to the table top game. The Harpoon4.1 and upcoming Harpoon5 rule-sets have many miles of improved realism vs the old Harpoon 3 Mini rules, yet little of that can be supported by the Current game engine.

 

In short a major change needs to be done to the GAME before Others will have the inertia to overcome the PDB in-so-far as the following of players.

 

Now where is my winning lottery ticket.

 

Er... if the blame were on the game the PDb would flounder like everybody else.

 

After offering my free help and money to help HUD4 only to see both refused due to delusional beliefs, the only thing left for me to offer is the major obstacle that, IMHO, HUD4 has to overcome if it wants to succeed: delusional beliefs.

 

Herman has been described as almost obsessive-compulsive in his hard-work for Harpoon; but for some reason he should have started by copying someone else's instead of devoting the 1/1000th time it was needed to recreate a new DB from scratch. Especially now, in the 2000s, when info is much more readily available.

 

Fantasy-minted concepts like "Plagiarism! Copyright violation!" etc. weren't distributed in the Harpoon community by the PDb. Actually they were initiated and still actively perpetuated by people who, right now, are working on a competing project, hate both Matrix and Harpoon, and only want to see both to flounder. Interestingly enough, by mindlessly embracing their agenda people end up going nowhere in their efforts to do something for Harpoon.

 

I'm now following this thread out of idle curiosity. My opinion on the biggest torpedo HUD4 just ate? Gunny's pre-canned rant about "those plagiarists". It cut with a single stroke some among the biggest venues of help HUD4 could get - HarpGamer included! I'm sure that, somewhere, someone is rubbing his hands and laughing. I will give you an hint as who: not someone who has Harpoon's well being as his main interest. Meanwhile my offer of help to HUD4 - testing, hosting space, you name it - is still and will always be open.

 

You write:

And then you have issues when someone copies your work and makes it "their own."

 

True. But one can also have issues when you create something with your hard work and someone else - acting out an open and freely admitted agenda - claims that it was "his own". Of course no one ever considers this possibility. I daily hear the "plagiarism!" speeches parroted as facts by people who never even bothered to contact the other side for their version. Then everybody marvels because their efforts to improve Harpoon go nowhere at maximum speed (ironically enough, everything in The Plan to Beat PDb is to BE the PDb...)

 

Robert McKee (someone that Mark should know well) once wrote how one should work with "principles", not "rules". A rule says "This is the truth!" and acts mindlessly out of it; a principle says "check the facts" and acts according to the findings. Act out of rules instead of principles and you will end up with a broken vision of what's real, a broken DB (one stems from the other after all...), and a broken community.

 

And meanwhile, somewhere, someone is still rubbing his hands and laughing.

Vincenzo, not need to hide... People of DB2k brought the proof that PDB was a copy of DB2k. Intellectual property, you have ever happened to hear about it? It is internationnally-recognized concept, any person with knowledge in law could act. Your "ugh" forum, do you think it's helping? Not even a child would have such an idea, all of you should grow adults. Take Harpoon as it is, a game, nothing else. Enough stupidity was done in the past, and instead of bringing something positive to Harpoon, you bring other elements for a flamewar. HUD4 is maybe not perfect, but it can boast not to be a copy of others work; and when mistakes are seen, they're corrected, even if some of them are game-engine related (by the way, if something is recurrent, why you don't post over Mantis?). Maybe you also ignore Don's message, but your PDB isn't official DB for AGSI. HUD4 (alongside ANW) is official.

 

FG

While Herman has been banned from Matrix Games' forum for a couple of years, other PDB supporters are still posting there.

Intellectual property, you have ever happened to hear about it? It is internationnally-recognized concept, any person with knowledge in law could act.

 

Yes, I happened to hear about "intellectual property":

 

 

I work with intellectual property. I produce intellectual property for a variety of media - videogames included. I got a WGA nomination for it. I have to know the international law. I have a lawyer that assists me in these matters.

 

Nothing of this is a secret. Google my name. Search the WGA(West) database. It is all in the open. When various parties contacted me re: "DB plagiarism!!!!!111" I drew from all these sources before answering them, explaining why my full support is still behind PDb.

 

Did anyone ever tell you this about me? I guess not. I wonder how many other things they never told you.

 

Vincenzo, not need to hide... People of DB2k brought the proof that PDB was a copy of DB2k.

 

No, they never did. Speaking with the qualifications I just showed you, I can tell you that whoever created DB2K cannot lay a single claim on PDb.

 

Wanna know why? Fine. I can show you by quoting law, paragraph and practical examples. But why you never just contacted me about it, ever? I mean, it would be normal for someone to her both sides of a story before making a call - exp. a story with so many twisted lies and a so low willingness to check for facts like this one is.

 

BTW. True, HUD4 is officially supported by AGSI, as "Dawnguard" is the official expansion of "Skyrim". But "Skyrim" thrives also thanks to phenomena like this: skyrim.nexusmods.com Lucky game.

 

Anyway, and I will repeat this once more, if someone wants my support for HUD4 he only has to ask. Hosting space, testing, advice... even legal counseling, now that I think about it

 

Ah, one last thing:

 

Your "ugh" forum, do you think it's helping? Not even a child would have such an idea

 

Yes, I think my so-called "ugh" site is helping. I also notice how if you write "ugh" here it comes out as "uhg". See? Childishness indeed.

Oh yes I see... No plagiarism was done since an F-16 will always look as an other F-16 in whatever DB it appears... Pathetic defence as usual. No one wonders why there were so many similar numbers for platform entries; there were examples of it posted to Matrix forums. And there starts intellectual property, should you accept it or no. If your "production" was so good as you boast it to be, no doubt it would be officially supported by AGSI. Ask yourself why it's not... Of course, it's easier and "more adult" to insult HUD4 and its editor via some social networks and video sharing websites (do you think it shows you're wise?). But when I see "your" list of bugs, and I compare it with the handful I submitted to the Mantis that were adressed, I can have questions on how important you folks are perceived. Maybe more maturity would help you to obtain better ear than now... It's time for you all to leave childhood and start to behave as adults...

 

FG