Hi,

 

I am trying to track down which Gearings and Sumners were updated while on Turikish service with Harpoon and 35mm dual guns - the DB shows only 2 of them, but I have found photographic evidence 3 were so updated, so I am trying to find out how they looked in the 90s, and it seems all photos on the web were taken from the bow!

 

Any help, please?

Hi, I am trying to track down which Gearings and Sumners were updated while on Turikish service with Harpoon and 35mm dual guns - the DB shows only 2 of them, but I have found photographic evidence 3 were so updated, so I am trying to find out how they looked in the 90s, and it seems all photos on the web were taken from the bow! Any help, please?

 

Its been awhile since I looked at these ships in any detail, so there may be mismatches, but there are three distinct groups of Turkish Gearing/Sumner class destroyers as far as Harpoon4 is concerned:

 

1. The FRAM II standard Gearing class:

 

Kocatepe (D354, ex USS Harwood, sunk in July 1974);

the later Kocatepe (D354, ex USS Norris), and;

Tinaztepe (D355, ex USS Keppler)

 

2. The FRAM II standard Sumner class:

 

Zafer (D356, ex USS Hugh Purvis)

 

3. The FRAM I standard Gearing class:

 

Yucetepe (D345, ex USS Orleck);

Savastepe (D348, ex Meredith);

Kilic Ali Pasa (D349, ex USS Robert H. McCard);

Pivale Pasa (D350, ex USS Fiske);

Maresal Fevzi Cakmak (D351, ex USS Charles H. Roan)

Gavret (D352, ex USS Eversole)

Adatepe (D353, ex USS Forrest Royal)

 

These are reflected in ten separate entries in the HCDB as follows:

 

Alcitepe (82) – Alcitepe, Anitepe

Alcitepe (87) – Alcitepe, Anitepe

Kocatepe (80/1) – Kocatepe

Kocatepe (80/2) – Tinaztepe

Adatepe (1985/1) – Adatepe

Adatepe (1985/2) – Savastepe

Adatepe (1985/3) – Kilic Ali Pasa, Piyale Pasa

Adatepe (1986) – Gayret, Maresal F. Cakmak

Yucetepe (1993) – Yucetepe

Zafer (Sumner) – Zafer

 

H4 also references Cakmak (D351) and Gavret (D352) as having been fitted with Harpoon (2xquad Mk141) in 1986. Which other ship(s) also received Harpoon in any kind of permanent fashion? Adatepe (D353)?

Hi, I am trying to track down which Gearings and Sumners were updated while on Turikish service with Harpoon and 35mm dual guns - the DB shows only 2 of them, but I have found photographic evidence 3 were so updated, so I am trying to find out how they looked in the 90s, and it seems all photos on the web were taken from the bow! Any help, please?

 

Its been awhile since I looked at these ships in any detail, so there may be mismatches, but there are three distinct groups of Turkish Gearing/Sumner class destroyers as far as Harpoon4 is concerned:

 

1. The FRAM II standard Gearing class:

 

Kocatepe (D354, ex USS Harwood, sunk in July 1974);

the later Kocatepe (D354, ex USS Norris), and;

Tinaztepe (D355, ex USS Keppler)

 

2. The FRAM II standard Sumner class:

 

Zafer (D356, ex USS Hugh Purvis)

 

3. The FRAM I standard Gearing class:

 

Yucetepe (D345, ex USS Orleck);

Savastepe (D348, ex Meredith);

Kilic Ali Pasa (D349, ex USS Robert H. McCard);

Pivale Pasa (D350, ex USS Fiske);

Maresal Fevzi Cakmak (D351, ex USS Charles H. Roan)

Gavret (D352, ex USS Eversole)

Adatepe (D353, ex USS Forrest Royal)

 

These are reflected in ten separate entries in the HCDB as follows:

 

Alcitepe (82) – Alcitepe, Anitepe

Alcitepe (87) – Alcitepe, Anitepe

Kocatepe (80/1) – Kocatepe

Kocatepe (80/2) – Tinaztepe

Adatepe (1985/1) – Adatepe

Adatepe (1985/2) – Savastepe

Adatepe (1985/3) – Kilic Ali Pasa, Piyale Pasa

Adatepe (1986) – Gayret, Maresal F. Cakmak

Yucetepe (1993) – Yucetepe

Zafer (Sumner) – Zafer

 

H4 also references Cakmak (D351) and Gavret (D352) as having been fitted with Harpoon (2xquad Mk141) in 1986. Which other ship(s) also received Harpoon in any kind of permanent fashion? Adatepe (D353)?

I researched this subject some months ago, mainly about the presence or not of 1st generation ECM in the aft mast, when Brad started the great DB revamping.

On this and other cases the best answer is informed guesses based mainly in Jane's, Conway and the long and painstaking ship-by-ship analysis of photographic evidences from navysource.org (and beware, when I was researching the Knox class, a lot of photos were bad dated as near 1990, when they were clearly of the eigthies!!!).

In this case I don't keep more notes than reflected in this forum

Some irrelevant, but the number of ASROC reloads in FRAM I destroyers are 9, as we can see in (the nine dots in the after superstructure) the USS Fiske:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/842.htm

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0584201.jpg

 

About the SPS-29 or SPS-40 radar in the Turkish DDs: by photographic evidence on navsource.org, a number of they were equipped with SPS-29 at the start of the Turkish service, and later equipped with SPS-40, and I think only Yucetepe retains SPS-20 to the end of her career.

 

About the presence of Harpoon missiles, in my modified DB it was reflected in the entry 3554 Adatepe (1985/3)(Piyale Pasa and Kilic Ali Pasa) as both ships were equipped with Harpoon, and with this note in the ship description text: "photographic evidence on both in navysource.org of Harpoon missiles in Turkish service and of ECM". I've not any evidence of Harpoon in others Turkish FRAM ships (aside those previously equipped with Harpoon in the DB). I think the guns were correct, I don't left notes about it in my modified DB.

Thanks, revisiting Navsource it seems to me that:

 

Kilic Ali Pasa (D349) had Harpoons, see here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0582239.jpg

Piyalepasa (D350) too, see here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0584247.jpg

Gayret (D352) seems to in this photo, although quality is execrable: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0578927.jpg - there's a mention in Conway's too.

Cakmak (D351) is easy, they are firing one here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0585309.jpg

 

Adatepe (D353) doesn't seem to, this looks like the most recent photo: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0587214.jpg

Tinaztepe (D355) got written off after the collision, so no modernisation.

Kocatepe II (D354) I don't think so, but difficult to say: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0585905.jpg

Savastepe (D348) seems to have retained a flight deck, so I would say no. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0589034.jpg

Yucetepe (D345) clearly not: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0588644.jpg

 

The 2 Carpenters clearly not:

Anitepe (D347) http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0582539.jpg

Alcitepe (D346) http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0582742.jpg

Thanks, links to pics (and photos in general) are great evidence, but just as often raise more questions.

 

When was the photo taken? Was it representative of a fit-out of the ship at that particular time? A test fit? Or something of a more permanent nature? (Obviously most times I am only interested in the latter).

 

Thanks, revisiting Navsource it seems to me that:

Kilic Ali Pasa (D349) had Harpoons, see here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0582239.jpg

 

This pic, for example, shows a pennant number that looks very much like 'D343'. At least to me. But D343 was apparently a Fletcher.

Thanks, links to pics (and photos in general) are great evidence, but just as often raise more questions.

 

When was the photo taken? Was it representative of a fit-out of the ship at that particular time? A test fit? Or something of a more permanent nature? (Obviously most times I am only interested in the latter).

 

Thanks, revisiting Navsource it seems to me that:

Kilic Ali Pasa (D349) had Harpoons, see here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0582239.jpg

 

This pic, for example, shows a pennant number that looks very much like 'D343'. At least to me. But D343 was apparently a Fletcher.

 

Most are undated (boooh) but you can see they had the 35mm dual turrets fit in most, so they would be between 1987-88 (when they were refitted by Combat Fleets and Conway's). D349 I reckon it's difficult to see due to the angle, but I enhanced the photo on GIMP and is 349 indeed - D343 was Fletcher named Iskenderun which was stricked in 1981, so too soon to get Harpoon.

 

I wanted this to update the Vassal module of "Sixth Fleet" so I don't need total certainty as I am grouping a Harpoon FRAM with a non Harpoon one, but the Greeks performed a very similar update on this timeframe (1987-88) so it makes sense that the fit was permanent and fits on the procurement policies of the US vs Greece/Turkey (1/2 ratio)

Most are undated (boooh) but you can see they had the 35mm dual turrets fit in most, so they would be between 1987-88 (when they were refitted by Combat Fleets and Conway's). D349 I reckon it's difficult to see due to the angle, but I enhanced the photo on GIMP and is 349 indeed - D343 was Fletcher named Iskenderun which was stricked in 1981, so too soon to get Harpoon.

 

That much (re Iskenderun) is well known, but this photo was pretty crappy. Glad you could enhance it enough to confirm 'D349'.

 

... the Greeks performed a very similar update on this timeframe (1987-88) so it makes sense that the fit was permanent and fits on the procurement policies of the US vs Greece/Turkey (1/2 ratio)

 

That has certainly been the practise. Some later photos would be nice. The mix of cells carried appears to vary (as is often the case and makes life tougher for DB guys).