Two or three questions about refueling:

 

1. How is fuel allocated among differing a/c types in a common group during refueling? For example, if I have groups consisting of an EF-111 (Patrol) and some F-111s (GP), or an EA-6B (Patrol) and some A-6Es (Precis-2), or some other similar combinations where there is a member type that has a much shorter range than other type(s) in the group and the tanker that is re-fueling the group does not have enough fuel to top off all the members, then how is the fuel allocated among those group members? Do the shorter-ranged members get topped off, and the remaining fuel distributed among the others, or (preferrably) does the fuel get allocated so that all members of the group will have equal remaining range, or is there some other method of allocation? (I tend to have trouble using EW members with attack groups which require re-fueling because the shorter-ranged EW members tend to crash even though the group reports fuel remaining, and I'm not seeing any way to keep accurate tabs on the fuel status of all members of the group, so as to provide adequate re-fueling for all of the members).

 

2. Even though the situation is due to "operator error", why is it that if re-fueling is attempted on a non-refuelable type, the re-fueling appears to occur properly, and after separating the tanker, the tanker shows no refuel stores remaining, yet the allegedly-refueled unit(s) have not taken on any fuel? Seems a bit bogus... I'd think that when re-fueling was attempted, it would reject the attempt, and leave the fuel status quo - instead of depleting the tanker while not delivering any fuel to the target. (Apparently, the tanker simply dumps its fuel load in this case?) Anyway, it doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm wondering what's up with that.

 

In a related matter, it would be helpful if there was somewhere during runtime that would tell whether an a/c type was capable of being re-fueled or not (short of making wasted trial attempts as described above). If that info is available during play, please let me know where to find it because I'm not seeing it. For instance, I was unpleasantly surprised to find out (too late) that KA-6s aren't refuelable; I just assumed they were since their other family members are. Dittos for some other types that I thought were refuelable in real life, but must be a different version in the game - or something. Anyway, is that info available anywhere during runtime?

 

Thanks.

Two or three questions about refueling:

 

2. Even though the situation is due to "operator error", why is it that if re-fueling is attempted on a non-refuelable type, the re-fueling appears to occur properly, and after separating the tanker, the tanker shows no refuel stores remaining, yet the allegedly-refueled unit(s) have not taken on any fuel? Seems a bit bogus... I'd think that when re-fueling was attempted, it would reject the attempt, and leave the fuel status quo - instead of depleting the tanker while not delivering any fuel to the target. (Apparently, the tanker simply dumps its fuel load in this case?) Anyway, it doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm wondering what's up with that.

 

There's 2 types of refueling. One happens automatically if you put the right planes in the right situation. I believe that tankers do not dump fuel in this case. The other is when you force refueling using ALT-R. This is you (the superior officer) telling the tanker crew to REFUEL THAT PLANE RIGHT NOW! But Sir, it can't ... DO IT !!! Sir, Yes, Sir! Whoosh! I presume that what you're describing here is the second case.

 

In a related matter, it would be helpful if there was somewhere during runtime that would tell whether an a/c type was capable of being re-fueled or not (short of making wasted trial attempts as described above). If that info is available during play, please let me know where to find it because I'm not seeing it. For instance, I was unpleasantly surprised to find out (too late) that KA-6s aren't refuelable; I just assumed they were since their other family members are. Dittos for some other types that I thought were refuelable in real life, but must be a different version in the game - or something. Anyway, is that info available anywhere during runtime?

 

I can address this point, and you are right that, for playability purposes, it should be easily available in the unit display, but it would involve an addition beyond what exists now, and therefore may not be relistically possible.

 

There is a fairly simple workaround.

 

Select an airbase in the group window. Order a launch (patrol). Click on a remote location in the group window. Select the plane you are testing. As you try to launch the plane, you will get one of 2 error messages. One of them tells you that that unit can't ifr. If you get the other one, that plane CAN ifr. Remember that for that scenario.

 

This is not the first time refueling questions have been asked. Read this thread, for example:

 

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2109971

 

and in it, there are references to another thread.

 

Of course, someone fairly new to these forums can have no reasonable way of knowing about that thread. I do, because I participated in it and it was important to me, so I remember it.

There's 2 types of refueling. One happens automatically if you put the right planes in the right situation. I believe that tankers do not dump fuel in this case. The other is when you force refueling using ALT-R. This is you (the superior officer) telling the tanker crew to REFUEL THAT PLANE RIGHT NOW! But Sir, it can't ... DO IT !!! Sir, Yes, Sir! Whoosh! I presume that what you're describing here is the second case.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of ALT-R, then; I thought it was to order refueling to occur earlier than it would occur "automatically" (based on fuel remaining); I didn't realize that it would disrupt the actual refueling procedure... that's a real bummer!

 

There is a fairly simple workaround.

 

Select an airbase in the group window. Order a launch (patrol). Click on a remote location in the group window. Select the plane you are testing. As you try to launch the plane, you will get one of 2 error messages. One of them tells you that that unit can't ifr. If you get the other one, that plane CAN ifr. Remember that for that scenario.

Good point... and actually I've attempted to use that occasionally, but it seemed like it wasn't always giving correct info. (I didn't do any testing of that, I just recall a few instances where the messages didn't seem just right, but I had other things to worry about at the time and so I didn't analyze it).

 

In any case, it wouldn't have helped in my recent pickle - because the plane in question was already in flight and there were no others of that type at base to use for the work-around. Oh well, the whole situation arose from the fact that a tanker somehow got sent back to an out-of-range base after completing its refueling, and I didn't notice the error until the tanker had gone well beyond the point of no return. It so happened that there was another unused tanker in that area, so in desperation, I attempted to save the first one via re-fueling it from the other. But, all that accomplished was to waste the second tanker.

ALT-R forces the tamker to dump its fuel immediately (or at least within 1 min). If no plane nearby can accept that fuel, then Whoosh!

 

Joe, I sent you a PM. Did you get it?

ALT-R forces the tamker to dump its fuel immediately (or at least within 1 min). If no plane nearby can accept that fuel, then Whoosh!

 

Hmmm... Well, is there any reasonable way to accomplish the command of re-fueling a group before it would happen automatically (by virtue of fuel remaining, I guess)? I have situations where I wish to re-fuel a group before their tanks are dry - for any of several reasons. I've been using ALT-R to do this... so perhaps I have been wasting fuel or otherwise fouling things up without realizing it.

 

Joe, I sent you a PM. Did you get it?

Apparently not... yet, anyway. Not sure how to access those, so maybe it's lurking somewhere waiting for me to find it?

ALT-R forces the tamker to dump its fuel immediately (or at least within 1 min). If no plane nearby can accept that fuel, then Whoosh!

 

Hmmm... Well, is there any reasonable way to accomplish the command of re-fueling a group before it would happen automatically (by virtue of fuel remaining, I guess)? I have situations where I wish to re-fuel a group before their tanks are dry - for any of several reasons. I've been using ALT-R to do this... so perhaps I have been wasting fuel or otherwise fouling things up without realizing it.

 

First, re your case with the tanker running low on fuel. I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon).

Second, re the Alt R. If you have a group with a tanker with available fuel and units that can receive fuel inflight, then the Alt R will start the normal refuel early. If you have no 'receptive' units the fuel will get dumped.

Third, re the order of fuelling, (if I remember correctly), say you have one tanker unit (any number of tankers) and two units (any number of individual planes) of a type that can IFR, the recipient unit with the lowest number (say group = AAA, units=AA00, AA01, AA02 and tankers are unit AA02, then AA00) will get fuel until either all fuel is exhausted or the unit is full, if then fuel remains the next unit will get fuel. If the tanker has more fuel than is needed to fill all planes in the group then that fuel is 'dumped'.

So when making up your group you might add last the units that need the most fuel otherwise you might fill the guys that don't really need it and leave the thirsty ones dry.

See the posts VictorInThePacific quoted for details on how much fuel you get from a tanker.

One interesting tweak for long distance runs, if you have tankers of different types add longest fuel range ones first, you can get multiple refuels in the group if you have two or more tanker units (not two or more tanker aircraft, they must be in different units). The lowest unit number tankers will refuel first and if they don't exhaust their fuel they'll go home without the second tanker unit fuelling the group until you get to the next call for fuel. You need to know how much the group will take each refuel and how much the various tankers supply - it can become very complicated. Remember you can't refuel tankers and they don't seem to want to go home until they have emptied (I think that depends on the game version, it might have been altered at some stage) so make sure you don't take a tanker beyond range of home.

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

...

Third, re the order of fuelling, (if I remember correctly), say you have one tanker unit (any number of tankers) and two units (any number of individual planes) of a type that can IFR, the recipient unit with the lowest number (say group = AAA, units=AA00, AA01, AA02 and tankers are unit AA02, then AA00) will get fuel until either all fuel is exhausted or the unit is full, if then fuel remains the next unit will get fuel. If the tanker has more fuel than is needed to fill all planes in the group then that fuel is 'dumped'.

So when making up your group you might add last the units that need the most fuel otherwise you might fill the guys that don't really need it and leave the thirsty ones dry.

See the posts VictorInThePacific quoted for details on how much fuel you get from a tanker.

One interesting tweak for long distance runs, if you have tankers of different types add longest fuel range ones first, you can get multiple refuels in the group if you have two or more tanker units (not two or more tanker aircraft, they must be in different units). The lowest unit number tankers will refuel first and if they don't exhaust their fuel they'll go home without the second tanker unit fuelling the group until you get to the next call for fuel. You need to know how much the group will take each refuel and how much the various tankers supply - it can become very complicated. Remember you can't refuel tankers and they don't seem to want to go home until they have emptied (I think that depends on the game version, it might have been altered at some stage) so make sure you don't take a tanker beyond range of home.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that it was even possible to launch a "package" that could accomplish multiple re-fuelings! (I always had to pre-deploy the tankers separately, and remember to join them up at the appropriate times - often with unhappy results. ) I'll have to try that sometime when I have some "free time" to play around...

 

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

That's why I lobby for some more "automatic" features for re-fueling - such as automatic vectoring of tankers to groups, a la fighter intercepts. I often suffer more losses from re-fueling SNAFUs than from enemy action - simply due to all the micro-managing that it demands at times when my attention is diverted to other pressing matters, such as air engagements and/or other battles.

I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon).

 

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES.

...

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

That's why I lobby for some more "automatic" features for re-fueling - such as automatic vectoring of tankers to groups, a la fighter intercepts. I often suffer more losses from re-fueling SNAFUs than from enemy action - simply due to all the micro-managing that it demands at times when my attention is diverted to other pressing matters, such as air engagements and/or other battles.

It would be nice, but I think other priorities do exist.

Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget.

If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling.

Hope this helps,

Don

I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon).

 

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES.

I think you are right but I think the translation into Harpoon reality is that you can't refuel tankers in general, at least I've never been able to using normal refuelling procedures. There might be a trick to do it, any ideas??

Don

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

 

Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget.

If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling.

Hope this helps,

Don

 

(and your post # 6)

 

I learn something new every day.

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

 

Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget.

If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling.

Hope this helps,

Don

 

(and your post # 6)

 

I learn something new every day.

Don't we all

...

Some times getting IFR right is harder than sinking the enemy

Don Thomas

That's why I lobby for some more "automatic" features for re-fueling - such as automatic vectoring of tankers to groups, a la fighter intercepts. I often suffer more losses from re-fueling SNAFUs than from enemy action - simply due to all the micro-managing that it demands at times when my attention is diverted to other pressing matters, such as air engagements and/or other battles.

It would be nice, but I think other priorities do exist.

Do you use the message system (short cut F10)? When you know you need to do something in the future select the group you'll be giving orders to and hit F10, enter your reminder message then you get a 'time delay' window, select the time delay required. When the time count down has finished you'll get the reminder pop-up and a chance to select the group so you can issue your orders. The F10 can also be put in as an order in the course editor so as to get your reminder at a certain location. This is very handy for arranging IFRs, if you have all group tracks showing calculate approx where you want to meet and course tanker and receiver groups to that spot and for each group put in a F10 reminder to look for the refuel. That way you don't forget.

If your refuel spot is within the formation patrol area of you tanker's base you can also put the tanker in patrol formation in the overlapping sector, put in a F10 reminder at an inserted spot in the receiver groups course and when you get there do a 'join' manoeuvre to get the tanker out of formation and into the receiver group, then do the Alt R for immediate refuelling.

Hope this helps,

Don

Thanks for the heads-up. Although I had been vaguely aware of the message feature, I was unaware of the extent of its capabilities, and consequently had ignored it, thinking it was a case of "more trouble than it's worth". As you describe it, it sounds like it would be helpful for a number of things, especially the re-fueling coordinations.

 

One thing I'd wonder about though, is whether the reminders may just get lost in the flurry of Staff Assistant messages that always seem to come up right around the time that something else really needs attention!

I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon).

 

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES.

I think you are right but I think the translation into Harpoon reality is that you can't refuel tankers in general, at least I've never been able to using normal refuelling procedures. There might be a trick to do it, any ideas??

Don

That reminds me of a situation that happened recently, where I had four F-14A's configured with tanker loadouts, and due to a SNAFU, they were heading off towards a base in Timbuktu, instead of to their originating base. Thus, they were running out of fuel. Fortunately - or so I thought - a KC-10 was nearby, so I introduced them and tried to re-fuel. It seemed to be working, but the range circle on the F-14s kept on getting smaller, and eventually they dropped out of the sky. Now, this was close enough that I'm not sure if it was just a case that there was not enough time to do the refueling, but it certainly gave the impression that the F-14's were not IFR capable (like the similar situation with that KA-6, which actually happened in the same incident, BTW). Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that F-14As were IFR-capable... or does having them in the Tanker loadout remove that capability?

I think the situation is that you can't refuel tankers (in Harpoon).

 

I believe the manual states that tankers can't refuel THEMSELVES.

I think you are right but I think the translation into Harpoon reality is that you can't refuel tankers in general, at least I've never been able to using normal refuelling procedures. There might be a trick to do it, any ideas??

Don

That reminds me of a situation that happened recently, where I had four F-14A's configured with tanker loadouts, and due to a SNAFU, they were heading off towards a base in Timbuktu, instead of to their originating base. Thus, they were running out of fuel. Fortunately - or so I thought - a KC-10 was nearby, so I introduced them and tried to re-fuel. It seemed to be working, but the range circle on the F-14s kept on getting smaller, and eventually they dropped out of the sky. Now, this was close enough that I'm not sure if it was just a case that there was not enough time to do the refueling, but it certainly gave the impression that the F-14's were not IFR capable (like the similar situation with that KA-6, which actually happened in the same incident, BTW). Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that F-14As were IFR-capable... or does having them in the Tanker loadout remove that capability?

Test it and see.

Hint, in the message log window you will see the time at which the tanker gets ready to refuel and the time(s) that it refuels each unit (might be more than one receiving unit). You should see the unit's range circle grow and % bingo jump simultaneously with respective units 'starting' refuel.

Don