One thing that has puzzled me for a long time is the following situation regarding detection - and then loss of detection - of AI groups:

 

Many times (maybe all times?) if the player has any sort of AEW/EW resources - or even other air groups - aloft (even if they are well beyond their radar ranges), the Staff Assistant will advise that the launch of such-and-such AI air group has been detected by such-and-such (player's) air group. However, said AI air group often is not seen again until it moves well within the radar range of some player's air or surface group.

 

My question is two-part: First, how is it possible for the player's air groups to detect these launches at ranges so far beyond their radar ranges, and second, if they are able to detect these AI launchs (which presumably are low-altitude events), then why are they unable to detect/track these AI groups subsequent to the launch event?

 

I never could make sense of this. It's nice to have the "early warning" that something is afoot... but not being able to detect or track it afterwards is rather perplexing - and seemingly inconsistent.

One thing that has puzzled me for a long time is the following situation regarding detection - and then loss of detection - of AI groups: Many times (maybe all times?) if the player has any sort of AEW/EW resources - or even other air groups - aloft (even if they are well beyond their radar ranges), the Staff Assistant will advise that the launch of such-and-such AI air group has been detected by such-and-such (player's) air group. However, said AI air group often is not seen again until it moves well within the radar range of some player's air or surface group. My question is two-part: First, how is it possible for the player's air groups to detect these launches at ranges so far beyond their radar ranges, and second, if they are able to detect these AI launchs (which presumably are low-altitude events), then why are they unable to detect/track these AI groups subsequent to the launch event? I never could make sense of this. It's nice to have the "early warning" that something is afoot... but not being able to detect or track it afterwards is rather perplexing - and seemingly inconsistent.

 

Given my observations of your previous reports of various issues, this is what I expect you are seeing (and not understanding):

 

You are detecting in-formation air groups as they take off and energize their radars. Your detections are being made via ESM and not by friendly radar (hence the apparently extreme ranges).

 

These in-formation air patrols do not appear on the Group Map, and so, although their detection is reported, you are not seeing them on the map and therefore they seem to 'disappear' or contact appears to be lost.

 

If you look more closely at the Unit Map, you will likely see these in-formation air patrols flying around and doing their thing, assuming you still have the assets in range to detect and track them.

 

Basic game mechanics (since forever) that appears to have eluded you for reasons unknown.

One thing that has puzzled me for a long time is the following situation regarding detection - and then loss of detection - of AI groups: Many times (maybe all times?) if the player has any sort of AEW/EW resources - or even other air groups - aloft (even if they are well beyond their radar ranges), the Staff Assistant will advise that the launch of such-and-such AI air group has been detected by such-and-such (player's) air group. However, said AI air group often is not seen again until it moves well within the radar range of some player's air or surface group. My question is two-part: First, how is it possible for the player's air groups to detect these launches at ranges so far beyond their radar ranges, and second, if they are able to detect these AI launchs (which presumably are low-altitude events), then why are they unable to detect/track these AI groups subsequent to the launch event? I never could make sense of this. It's nice to have the "early warning" that something is afoot... but not being able to detect or track it afterwards is rather perplexing - and seemingly inconsistent.

 

Given my observations of your previous reports of various issues, this is what I expect you are seeing (and not understanding):

 

You are detecting in-formation air groups as they take off and energize their radars. Your detections are being made via ESM and not by friendly radar (hence the apparently extreme ranges).

 

These in-formation air patrols do not appear on the Group Map, and so, although their detection is reported, you are not seeing them on the map and therefore they seem to 'disappear' or contact appears to be lost.

 

If you look more closely at the Unit Map, you will likely see these in-formation air patrols flying around and doing their thing, assuming you still have the assets in range to detect and track them.

 

Basic game mechanics (since forever) that appears to have eluded you for reasons unknown.

I apologize for not being clear, but I was referring to non-formation AI air groups. I do realize that formation air groups (for both sides) appear only in the unit display.

I apologize for not being clear, but I was referring to non-formation AI air groups. I do realize that formation air groups (for both sides) appear only in the unit display.

 

If that's the case, I have yet to see evidence of this occurring. A couple of questions arising, though:

 

1. Are you sure you are detecting the enemy groups via radar? Or is it ESM?

 

2. Are your own detecting groups maintaining their position or range viz-a-vis the enemy group?

 

3. Are the enemy groups going radar silent or changing their altitude?

this is what I expect you are seeing:

 

You are detecting in-formation air groups as they take off and energize their radars. Your detections are being made via ESM and not by friendly radar (hence the apparently extreme ranges).

 

These in-formation air patrols do not appear on the Group Map, and so, although their detection is reported, you are not seeing them on the map and therefore they seem to 'disappear' or contact appears to be lost.

 

If you look more closely at the Unit Map, you will likely see these in-formation air patrols flying around and doing their thing, assuming you still have the assets in range to detect and track them.

 

Sounds about right, but I would like to add:

 

1) Actually locating those units in the unit window could be non-trivial.

2) If those base-formation planes decide to intercept you, they get their own group window icon, which you may or may not see, because they probably go low and silent and do their damnedest to bushwhack you.

this is what I expect you are seeing:

 

You are detecting in-formation air groups as they take off and energize their radars. Your detections are being made via ESM and not by friendly radar (hence the apparently extreme ranges).

 

These in-formation air patrols do not appear on the Group Map, and so, although their detection is reported, you are not seeing them on the map and therefore they seem to 'disappear' or contact appears to be lost.

 

If you look more closely at the Unit Map, you will likely see these in-formation air patrols flying around and doing their thing, assuming you still have the assets in range to detect and track them.

 

Sounds about right, but I would like to add:

 

1) Actually locating those units in the unit window could be non-trivial.

2) If those base-formation planes decide to intercept you, they get their own group window icon, which you may or may not see, because they probably go low and silent and do their damnedest to bushwhack you.

I would concur that I often see what has been initially described and that the event is the launch of aiarcraft as formation patrols and that actually getting them on the screen is hard work.

I'd wonder how one determines that the launched aircraft aren't launched as part of a formation if one never sees them on the screen.

I believe the way to test is:

when you get the staff assistant message you get some options including "show" and "select", pick one of these ("select" is best) then go to 1:1 time (another option in the staff message) and see what has been selected. If it is a base or surface ship then the launch was a formation patrol (and as said it may quicly go to intercept but you might not know this), otherwise your selection is a aircraft group and if you quickly loose contact entirely then a 'blank' unit report.

The other thing is to a very quick switch to 'see all' mode and work out what it was - you will have gotten clues regarding diection from the detecting platform.

Remember that there is some degree of intuition needed, you don't just get all the info handed to you on a plate.

DonThomas

One more comment, and please refer again to Brad's questions above.

 

When you are first informed of a detection, you are specifically told by what mechanism the detection occurred.

1) Actually locating those units in the unit window could be non-trivial.

 

That's true, especially in a cluttered environment / 'busy' scenario. Suffice to say that if you are within 255 nm of an enemy airfield (the limit of a formation patrol), you're in the badlands. Keep your head up.

I apologize for not being clear, but I was referring to non-formation AI air groups. I do realize that formation air groups (for both sides) appear only in the unit display.

 

If that's the case, I have yet to see evidence of this occurring. A couple of questions arising, though:

 

1. Are you sure you are detecting the enemy groups via radar? Or is it ESM?

 

2. Are your own detecting groups maintaining their position or range viz-a-vis the enemy group?

 

3. Are the enemy groups going radar silent or changing their altitude?

1. It must be via some means other than radar because in most cases, the AI base is well beyond the indicated range of the player's own radars. So, it would have to be via ESM, HUMINT, or something. But, I do believe that many times, I see ESM mentioned in the notification dialog. Also, usually - but not always - there is an initial uncertainty region displayed - although that disappears soon after.

 

2. Not knowing the position of the enemy groups, it's a little hard to say. But, at least in a fair number of cases, my own detecting group(s) are either stationary (typical with AWACS, etc.) or may even be moving towards the enemy base (as in the case of attack groups or fighter sweeps, or TARPS, etc.).

 

3. Also unknown, due to lack of any fix that would generate a report. I assume, though, that they are not using radar, as evidenced by the lack of "fix", or later, by lack of even detection. (My assumption here is that my AEW/EW -or even other assets- should detect AI groups that are using active radar... although I'm beginning to doubt that assumption, based on other recent discussions regarding relative detectability ).

I would concur that I often see what has been initially described and that the event is the launch of aiarcraft as formation patrols and that actually getting them on the screen is hard work.

I'd wonder how one determines that the launched aircraft aren't launched as part of a formation if one never sees them on the screen.

I believe the way to test is:

when you get the staff assistant message you get some options including "show" and "select", pick one of these ("select" is best) then go to 1:1 time (another option in the staff message) and see what has been selected. If it is a base or surface ship then the launch was a formation patrol (and as said it may quicly go to intercept but you might not know this), otherwise your selection is a aircraft group and if you quickly loose contact entirely then a 'blank' unit report.

The other thing is to a very quick switch to 'see all' mode and work out what it was - you will have gotten clues regarding diection from the detecting platform.

Remember that there is some degree of intuition needed, you don't just get all the info handed to you on a plate.

DonThomas

It is true that I haven't checked for formation patrols in every case, but when I have looked, it's either been the case that the units (group?) show up in the Unit Display as part of the formation, or they don't show up on the Unit Display, in which case I'm assuming them to be these non-formation groups that I'm wondering about. In any case, they either don't show up on the Group Window at all, or else they disappear from the Group Window shortly after the initial detection report.

 

I don't recall ever attempting to select the detected group and then watching its report as you described, and I haven't ever tried the "see all" in these cases, because I wasn't even aware of that facility until very recently. Perhaps those techniques would shed some light on this; so I'll see what I can turn up next time it happens.

 

As far as intuition goes, you see what kind of hot water I get into here when I try to go with my intuition!

As far as intuition goes, you see what kind of hot water I get into here when I try to go with my intuition!

Yep, I'm not one to say that following intuition is always best, I wonder if Custer was following intuition?

DonT

 

PS, Also, when you get one of these contacts, I like to study the new contact information before dismissing the window. Check how many new contacts, how many of your platforms detect each contact, take a rough bearing from each of your detecting platforms (and where there are more than one get an approximate position) , think about the risk of the contact present and future, think about repositioning your groups or formation patrol units to provide better detection, maybe send in some recce unit (with EW cover if available), if you have some very stealthy fighters perhaps an intercept..... there's lots to think about for just one new contact.