There is a distinct change in the behavior or characteristics of AI air groups and AA missiles between HCGold (and early versions of the HCE demo) and the more recent versions of the HCE Demo, and I'm trying to get my head around the reasons or rationale for all of this.

 

The first (and most flustering) difference is that my air patrol groups often can just blow up without warning for no apparent reason, even when at extreme distances from any enemy detection platforms. It turns out that the reason is that they were attacked by (an) AI air group(s) - apparently - but this revelation just lead to more puzzlement because when I found out what the culprits were, the results made even less sense to me:

 

As it turned out, the apparent attackers were groups of "older generation" aircraft types (MiG-21's and MiG-23s), which are not particularly stealthy, yet they were able to sneak up on my low-altitude air groups, totally undetected (even by nearby AWACs). This didn't seem particularly plausible to begin with, but was further complicated by the fact that these AI MiG groups aren't VLow-capable, and should need to get fairly close in order to use their relatively short-ranged AA missiles, and those missiles are radar-guided, yet the attackers used them without turning on their guidance radars! And the last straw was that the missiles themselves were never detected. This all seemed to violate plausible detectability.

 

This contrasts sharply with the "old" behavior where non-stealthy a/c could be detected - although not necessarily with a "fix" - at distances typically beyond the missile range of my own groups, and definitely would show up when they fired missiles - due to activation of their guidance radars, I assume. Plus, the missiles themselves generally would be detectable at fair distances, but at least before they made the kills. So, I'm curious what explains this recent lack of detectability of AI air and missile groups - and what tactics can compensate for this new lack of ability to detect AI units?

 

The other thing is the new ability of the AI to detect my own low-altitude, radar-quiet air groups, apparently at great distances, allowing them to initate such attacks, and to be able to "fix" my air groups - without using radar - in order to prosecute the attacks and target their missiles.

 

This contrasts substantially from the "old" behavior where the AI pretty much limited its attacks to my air groups that were detected by some obvious means - such as being in range of AI AEW aircraft, air or ship-based radar, or by enemy units within visual range.

 

So, the new situation is that the AI appears to have a considerably superior ability to detect the player's groups at all distances, as well as an inexplicable "stealth capability" for its a/c, targeting radars, and even AA missiles...

 

This all leaves me wondering what's going on with all this, is this actually realistic (and why), and how does the player employ an expectedly comparable stealthiness against the AI aircraft? On the surface, it seems that the AI has considerable advantage over the player in all of these respects... is this "correct"... and if so, what are the "reasons"? And are there any tactical hints for the player to employ in order to level the field?

 

Thanks!

There is logging to start your analysis, http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=3574

 

You also have the Show All capability at your fingertips (see hotkey sheet downloads).

 

The best way to keep your planes undetected is to not emit, use your AWACs as your eyes. ESM is a highly capable sensor in HC so to game the system you avoid emitting and providing the AI with ESM hits.

There is logging to start your analysis, http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=3574

 

You also have the Show All capability at your fingertips (see hotkey sheet downloads).

 

Um... did I miss something here? What analysis? What's the Show All for? What are hotkey sheet downloads?

 

 

The best way to keep your planes undetected is to not emit, use your AWACs as your eyes. ESM is a highly capable sensor in HC so to game the system you avoid emitting and providing the AI with ESM hits.

 

Yeah, that's what's bothering me... My SOP for all non-recon/AEW air patrols is to send them out at Low altitude, and remain at Low when loitering (which requires manual alteration of each course after launch), leave their sensors off (although I've also tried using intermittant in an attempt to get an early warning on the attackers), and whenever possible I keep them within the umbrella of an AWACs, or at least a P-3 or similar, as available... or within the coverage of a surface group or base... or within the coverage of some other (radiating) air patrol in certain cases. And I make every attempt to stay well clear of any AI platform whenever practical. So, I thought that I was taking every available precaution... yet the AI often knows where to find my groups, and zeros in for the kill - without either the attacking aircraft nor their AA missiles ever showing up! In earlier versions of the game, these precautions would have been entirely adequate against older-generation a/c types (although perhaps not against the more stealthy and lower-flying Eurofighters or Rafales), but in recent times, I frequently have cases of "spontaneously destructing" a/c groups... even sometimes the AWACs themselves!

 

On the other side of the coin, I am totally unable to sneak up on the AI's groups - even when they have no radar on and no AEW around - even with F-22s, flying at lowest possible altitudes, etc. Of course, without radar, I'm unable to get a fix on the target groups, and if my a/c are using radar-guided missiles, I have to turn on my radars in order to fire - which allows the AI groups to shoot back... bottom line is that it's almost impossible to be undetected by the AI.

 

I have noticed that certain scenarios (or perhaps just game sessions - not sure) seem to have a lot more liklihood of this detectability situation than others, but in general it is more frequent overall than in earlier versions. Is this to be expected? If so, what's the reason?

 

Thanks!

There is logging to start your analysis, http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=3574

 

You also have the Show All capability at your fingertips (see hotkey sheet downloads).

 

Um... did I miss something here? What analysis? What's the Show All for? What are hotkey sheet downloads?

 

The best way to keep your planes undetected is to not emit, use your AWACs as your eyes. ESM is a highly capable sensor in HC so to game the system you avoid emitting and providing the AI with ESM hits.

 

Yeah, that's what's bothering me... My SOP for all non-recon/AEW air patrols is to send them out at Low altitude, and remain at Low when loitering (which requires manual alteration of each course after launch), leave their sensors off (although I've also tried using intermittant in an attempt to get an early warning on the attackers), and whenever possible I keep them within the umbrella of an AWACs, or at least a P-3 or similar, as available... or within the coverage of a surface group or base... or within the coverage of some other (radiating) air patrol in certain cases. And I make every attempt to stay well clear of any AI platform whenever practical. So, I thought that I was taking every available precaution... yet the AI often knows where to find my groups, and zeros in for the kill - without either the attacking aircraft nor their AA missiles ever showing up! In earlier versions of the game, these precautions would have been entirely adequate against older-generation a/c types (although perhaps not against the more stealthy and lower-flying Eurofighters or Rafales), but in recent times, I frequently have cases of "spontaneously destructing" a/c groups... even sometimes the AWACs themselves!

 

On the other side of the coin, I am totally unable to sneak up on the AI's groups - even when they have no radar on and no AEW around - even with F-22s, flying at lowest possible altitudes, etc. Of course, without radar, I'm unable to get a fix on the target groups, and if my a/c are using radar-guided missiles, I have to turn on my radars in order to fire - which allows the AI groups to shoot back... bottom line is that it's almost impossible to be undetected by the AI.

 

I have noticed that certain scenarios (or perhaps just game sessions - not sure) seem to have a lot more liklihood of this detectability situation than others, but in general it is more frequent overall than in earlier versions. Is this to be expected? If so, what's the reason?

 

Thanks!

 

Joe, it seems to me that you are doing just about everything right, and yet your units are blowing up all the time! This is not sarcasm, because your description above of how you deploy your planes is fundamentally the way they should be deployed.

 

But perhaps there are some things you are not considering.

 

First, "show all" (CTRL-ALT-s, no mouse equivalent) is a "tester's" function. It does exactly what it says. The next time one of your units has been wiped out by an invisible enemy, while that message is still active, and pausing the game, hit PRINT SCREEN and paste the clipboard into MS Paint. Edit as appropriate. Then, back in Harpoon, clear the message, "show all", pause, and take another screen capture. etc. Use that information in your further analysis.

 

Keyboard commands have been compiled and stored, for example, in the "beta tester - help" forum.

 

I think you will find that your units were being detected by enemy AEW planes or something (btw, a P3 does not qualify; no AS radar, and radar range too short anyway). The question is, why were you not aware of the enemy detector? I suggest that it may have something to do with electronics. Mostly, I am just guessing, but I know that the EW module is substantially new for HCE. If the plane that detected you had good ECM protection, it may well be that its radar saw you, but you didn't see it! And then, you can kiss your "silent" units good-bye.

 

As far as "old" enemy fighters potting your "new" ones, consider that their radar is so poor that they never turned it on, that perhaps they came in low and silent, that visual detection doesn't work very well, and that their short-range missiles reach you so quickly that you never get a detection chance, which only happens once every 30 s.