Hi All,

Playing the first scenario of GIUK 2.0, where I have to escort 2 merchants to Narvik. A flight of 6 floggers comes in...presumably intending to attempt to kill my ships. However the first thing they did was shoot down all 4 of my ASW helos. While this makes good sense I'd foolishly figured they wouldn't waste time trying to shoot down helicopters while in range of ship based SAMs...

 

Regardless of my stupidity on this point...how does one defend against this? Land all your ASW helos as soon as you suspect an enemy flight is coming in?

 

This is very crafty as the very thought of a fighter attack would force me to land all my helos, which is going to put them out of action for at least 60 minutes...leaving plenty of time for a sub to penetrate the task force.

 

Is landing the helos the only way to protect them from fighters?

The AI controlled fighters love to attack helicopters and AEW aircraft. Against this, you have virtually no defense without adequate fighter cover of your own.

 

Aside from exercising very judicious and conservative control of your helicopters (such as flying only one helo at a time and not letting it stray too far from its host ship), I can suggest the following:

 

When enemy fighters appear (and it is critical that you get as much advance warning of their approach as possible), fly your helicopter to the far side of your own ship formation. In pursuit of your helicopter, the enemy will likely fly into the air defense envelope of your ships and you will likely get an opportunity to shoot them down. The danger in this, of course (aside from not having enough time to fly out of harm's way), is that the enemy will get a good look at your ship formation and/or your air defense systems will miss.

The AI controlled fighters love to attack helicopters and AEW aircraft. Against this, you have virtually no defense without adequate fighter cover of your own.

 

Aside from exercising very judicious and conservative control of your helicopters (such as flying only one helo at a time and not letting it stray too far from its host ship), I can suggest the following:

 

When enemy fighters appear (and it is critical that you get as much advance warning of their approach as possible), fly your helicopter to the far side of your own ship formation. In pursuit of your helicopter, the enemy will likely fly into the air defense envelope of your ships and you will likely get an opportunity to shoot them down. The danger in this, of course (aside from not having enough time to fly out of harm's way), is that the enemy will get a good look at your ship formation and/or your air defense systems will miss.

 

Thanks..I thought as much...I had 3 ASW helos up at the time around 16NM out from the formation. The plus side was they seemed more intent on shooting down the helos than launching their ASMs at the merchants. This did in fact give my air defences a good opportunity to shoot them down.

 

Formations without an Aegis platform really need some kind of fighter cover!

 

I notice that the AS-7 Kerry's simply vanished once the last fighter had been taken down..presumably this is modelling loss of guidance from the launching aircraft?

I notice that the AS-7 Kerry's simply vanished once the last fighter had been taken down..presumably this is modelling loss of guidance from the launching aircraft?

 

Yeah, the Kerry is command guided.

Yeah, I've lost a helo or 2 to this.

 

For starters, in that particular scenario, using all 4 helos at the same time is not optimal. The Seahawks are by far your best searching tool, and at least 1 should be reset to Ferry/Search (highest fuel capacity).

 

The Lynx don't have a dipping sonar, neither do the Seahawk, so you have to rely on a handful of sonobouys for ASW detection by air. They quickly run out and make it much harder to prosecute any long range towed array/ship based ASW contacts.

 

Saving helos from the enemy planes really depends on 1 major factor. Does Narvik detect the incoming flight of planes? If it does, you probably have enough time to recover your helos. If not, you might barely have enough time to redirect them in the formation as a trap.

My data might be inaccurate, you will have to check some of this.

 

I am not suggesting how to protect your helicopters, but

 

I think the Floggers do not have a surface search radar (check this). If that is true, how are they locating your helicopters? Visual? Are they homing on your radar? If you see the fighters before they see you, you might try turning off the helicopter radar and racing for home at very low altitude.

I think the Floggers do not have a surface search radar (check this). If that is true, how are they locating your helicopters? Visual? Are they homing on your radar? If you see the fighters before they see you, you might try turning off the helicopter radar and racing for home at very low altitude.

 

A surface search radar would be irrelevant. The Floggers do have an air search radar, which can detect the NATO helicopters. They're probably being vectored by ESM detection of the helo's radars until their own air search sets (High Lark) can pick them up.

Yeah, I've lost a helo or 2 to this.

 

For starters, in that particular scenario, using all 4 helos at the same time is not optimal. The Seahawks are by far your best searching tool, and at least 1 should be reset to Ferry/Search (highest fuel capacity).

 

The Lynx don't have a dipping sonar, neither do the Seahawk, so you have to rely on a handful of sonobouys for ASW detection by air. They quickly run out and make it much harder to prosecute any long range towed array/ship based ASW contacts.

 

Saving helos from the enemy planes really depends on 1 major factor. Does Narvik detect the incoming flight of planes? If it does, you probably have enough time to recover your helos. If not, you might barely have enough time to redirect them in the formation as a trap.

 

I've tended to have as many helos up as possible to give the best sonobouy coverage. I wasn't able to detect any subs at 5kts with the towed arrays on the OHP or Type 22 despite creeping for the entire scenario.

 

Once I detected a sub contact I vectored whatever helos were up towards them. I tracked them by manually dropping bouys until further helos had a chance to re-arm, then I finished the contact off.

 

Any recommendation to how better utilise the helos? Is one helo able to effectively cover the area?

Any recommendation to how better utilise the helos? Is one helo able to effectively cover the area?

 

As mack has pointed out, you have a limited number of sonobuoys and no dipping sonar. (I find a dipping sonar to have limited utility as a search tool, anyway, because its tied to the limited endurance of the host helicopter. Its much more useful in localizing a known contact).

 

Your SH-60B Seahawk has about twice as many sonobuoys as the Lynx HAS.3. The Lynx, however, has the better ASW weapon in the Stingray lightweight torpedo (as compared to the Seahawk's Mk 46 NEARTIP). So, personally, I'd utilize the SH-60B as the search asset, and keep the Lynx in reserve for delivering the killing blow.

 

You need to be dropping fields of sonobuoys far enough ahead of your formation that your ships aren't reaching them before they run out of endurance (1 hour). (Because you want to detect that hostile sub before he is in engagement range). But not so far, of course, that the sonobuoys run out too early, leaving a large gap of space between your advancing formation and the buoy field. (A gap that could potentially contain a hostile sub).

 

You can put the helo inside the formation, of course, in which case it will drop sonobuoys randomly in its assigned sector. (Note that if the helo runs out of buoys before it runs out of fuel, it will keep patrolling. This is ok when the helo has a dipping sonar, but not terribly useful when it does not).

 

Or, alternatively, you can launch the helo independently and micro manage the sonobuoy field yourself.

 

As for the optimum sonobuoy pattern, that's a topic of much (continued) discussion. Here's an excerpt from an article on the subject, one that we've been using in "Wish List" discussions:

 

From Journal of Simulation (2006) 1, 29–38. doi:10.1057/palgrave.jos.4250003

 

"Each of the five search patterns from the National Search and Rescue Manual are described below. For each pattern, a graphic of the pattern is presented each of which indicates a commence search pattern (CSP) point ... When the point of last contact with the target involves a high degree of certainty, and the search area is large, either the parallel ... or the creeping line ... search pattern is preferred.

 

The parallel pattern is most desirable when the target is assumed equally likely to occupy any part of the search area.

 

 

The creeping line pattern ... is typically employed when the target is more likely to be in a particular end of the search area.

 

 

When the point of last contact is well known, or established within close limits, the square ... and sector search ... patterns are preferred. The square pattern is used when uniform coverage of the search area is desired ...

 

 

while the sector search pattern is used in scenarios where the target is difficult to detect.

 

 

Finally, when the target is fast moving or when a strong current is present in the search area, the barrier patrol search pattern ... is preferred (its CSP is either starting point). The barrier patrol pattern was used extensively during the actual Bay of Biscay U-boat war."

 

Thanks once more!