Alpha77

Try opening it with the SE (Scenario Editor/WSCENEDT.EXE) in the HC Beta forum here at HarpGamer. There is currently a zip file with many game components, just grab the editor out of it, plop it into your HC Gold directory and give it a try (as always, back up your existing SE or rename this newer one to a different name). I think it will work if the database file format hasn't changed too much. Howdie and thanks, as soon I got the time I will maybe edit the conditions and make a version for RED from this scen.

@ CV32: Thanks for the report. Well I wanted to post the vic conditions here, but forgot about it... it may be that you missed a sub to hunt down. There are also ones in the NORTHSEA ...... see below ! I will check the conditions, but believe the "hard" version was quite impossibe to win, try the easier one maybe. SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe 1 Kilo, 2 or 3 older nuclear and 1 Alpha ! The Alpha should be an escort (or recon asset) for the big group which appears from Norway coast.

AH BTW: I was planning maybe to do a version from the RED side, too - will take some time however. I was so much in the cold war / ww3 fever that I now even had the idea to create a land campaign (with air support) for this scenario (in TOAW3 - i hope ppl. know this one, you can find info over at Matrixgames - we just need to wait for some fixes in the game engine.). There are already some GOOD WW3 scens but none in the 90ties, also I noted some of the OOBs were wrong and the equipment database needs an overhaul...

I had more probs to DESTROY subs in the new version (HCE demo) then to detect them to be honest. I remember hunting down Alpha or Akula classes is a nightmare and you need plenty of fish. While in Harp Gold, sometimes even 2 or 3 torps were enough. Now you need 10 or more I would also like to know of long can a sub go on max speed in reality ? Say a Alpha class? Can they just speed the whole time at 40kn ? Yes, in game they can.... you need a torp very near or head on to catch a Alpha class on full speed, and it still will miss more than often. I wonder how Nato planned to cope with these subs in reality?

HI, so you can play this scen also in the HCE version, cool! ALL bases ? Also those in the far north ? Well you can check the conditions for yourself, but you need a certain number of ships, subs, planes AND bases destroyed. Also 3 bases are mandatory to be destroyed.......maybe the vic conditions in the "heavy" version are a bit too high (I tried to edit them down a bit, but editor crashed the whole time, game is too big I guess)... Did you manage to save the German fleet (I mean the one near Kiel/Eckernförde) ? In my test games they were always destroyed Its just too much that the reds throw at them in terms of missiles.but I acknowledge it can be done, you only need a strong CAP far outside too also catch the Backfires.... of course this strong CAP will lack in the defense of your bases I wonder how the Danes/Germans rated the survival rate of their ships in that area in reality (WW3)...they assumed they get air superiority it seems. However without that these ships would have a hard time, they are not exactly aegis like anti air ships (Mabye we should add 2 or 3 US anti air ships in a another version of scen and see how this plays out?) Also I noted the Diesel subs are quite good - ... .. until they shoot, then mostly they get hunted down. Do you know any tricks how they survive even when detected (it seems they get detected every time if they fire a torp in my game version...). Ok, this also depends on air, if you can shoot down the reds asw planes/helis then ok... but if you can´t shoot them down cause the reds still contest the air, what then??

SYSTEM SPECS: a) Pentium P4 2.66ghz,1 MB Ram,onboard graphics Core 2 Duo 2.66,2 MB dualchannel Ram, Ati 6450 - both PCs WinXP SP3 - runs fine on both computers, slows down only during "hotter" battles.... Blue Orders: a) Protect airspace and all installations If the red side should do something stupid, you are authorized to attack and destroy any red assets. Order of priority: bases, ports, major ships, bomber-fighter-attack planes, subs......and every other asset. c) Keep your forces intact for later ops. d) Protect our fleet and sortie out to the north and baltic seas to hunt down the submarine pests we suspect there (better wait untill if you have air suppority, dont!!! sortie the German and Danish ships too early!!! they may have trouble to deal with heavy air attacks) As well you might have trouble to control all the assets on your command at once. So leave the surface actions alone untill the air war cools down. e) Use the subsurface assets to gather intelligence on the Red fleet, but remember if you launch weapons you will mostly be detected early on. Heavy resistance by air ASW planes can be expected, so be careful. Red Orders: This scen is only playable by the blue side..... I am sure this quite big (and not for the faint hearted) scenario needs some assistance and players will have question, just post them here I will also post some game tips after some time - as they may contain spoilers they will be published later to not spoil the game ! DOWNLOAD: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/files/file/820-red-lightning-2/

File Name: Red Lightning 2 File Submitter: Alpha77 File Submitted: 02 Jun 2013 File Category: GIUK Red Lighting 2 scenario description for Battleset HDS9 series3 "GIUK" in HARPOON GOLD ! Here is the complete thread and more info on this scen: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3325616 NOTE1: I DONT KNOW WHICH DATABASE VERSION I HAVE, it is the same database that came with the game, I never downloaded any content, so I guess you need the basic "vanilla" database.... NOTE2: Due to quite massive scale of this scen I am sure there are troubles and questions by players, please use the thread here or at Matrix forum to get help or make comments........... How to load this into the game? Unzip to place of your choice, select GIUK HDS9 battleset in Harp Gold, click "user scenario", navigate to folder where you unzipped the files into...ready to go. Scenario Background: Sometime in the 90ties: The coup in Russia succeeded. Not only was the president imprisoned but the freedom movements in Poland and the GDR (=East Germany) were supressed. Not with violence, but more "quietly". So the west had not much clues what went on at all. First they were shocked by the turmoil in the Kremlin, but soon the relations between the sides normalized, because the new government in Russia seemed reasonable. They wanted a new deal with the US for delivery of non millitary items and the US business needed new deals - pressured the white house to be more friendly with the east. So they did, also the West German cancellor who also was more a puppet of big corporations that wanted export to the east, met with eastern president Lisy to discuss new trade deals. He was impressed by the chance of language - the new officials seemed to be more realistic and friendly than the old guard around Honecker. But little did they know what was happening, as in reality the millitary planned to get back the old s oviet glory and demand what was rightfully them. If demand wasn´t working, pressure maybe would.....first the old Finnish wound should be healed. As their demand was not really bad (a "leasing" of the old territories which the Generals felt belonged to Russia), the Fins caved in to not have a second winter war. But the Russians didn´t stop there, they wanted a better protection of their northern flank. Sweden was strictly neutral and too strong, so Norway was the only option.... NATO wasnt prepared at all, lulled in by the new warm climate between the blocks. But the homeguard was. But they were too few. Russian speznaz and paratroops suddenly stormed key bases and the tanks came later. There were not much Nato forces in Norway at all, so this was solved fast. The norwegian government called a ceasefire with the option offered by the Russians that only the northern half of the country will be occupied, the other half became a norwegian "vichy". The few US marines with their few helis and harriers fled to Denmark as well some left over planes from the Norway airforce (some F16+F5 Tigers). So all 3 countries in the north now were more (=Norway) or less (=Sweden) controlled by the USSR. While Nato was still discussing how to react, the Russians made their next coup, demanding from Denmark free passage for all shipping. If this demand would be fullfilled, the case would be settled and there would be peace again. So the Kremlin. The Denish had a resolute prime minister at this time, who s end Moscow a package with a letter and a bottle in it: "You can have this bottle of Denish beer for free, but not more". Also it contained a bottle of Danish beer......... Overview of the BLUE forces (this is in the 90ties, but no specific date): a) Belgium (only airforce - their few ships are employed in convoi duty and coastal patrol). They have mostly F16s and a few Mirages. Belgium had MirageIIIs but they are substituted with 2000s in game (there is also no MIII in the database for this batttleset). Also you can use some Alpha Jets for light bombing duties (these are substituted by Hawks in game cause no Alpha Jet in database). Bases represented are Kleine Brogel and Florennes (the latter the bigger one). Canada Canada had CF18s stationed in Germany. In this scen it is assumed they are mostly withdrawn, but the last ones are still there: At Frankfurt Rhein Main airport ready for departure to Canada (ferry loadout)...... c)Denmark They have also mostly F16s and a few Saab Draken. But also some F5s which fled from Norway. The Saab isnt in the database so you need to do without them, therefore the F16s look really cool (see pic). Also some Hawks are provided as light attack planes (or trainer but you do not need to train your pilots in this game). They also have some asw helis and all the US marine corps transport helos that fled from Norway. You should not lose too much of these transports they are needed for a air landing attack in Eastern Germany later....they have severall bases mostly at the coast (biggest one Copenhagen). Their navy consists of small corvettes, fast missile boats and diesel subs (2 of them in game). d)France: They always were (and wanted) something special and their own way. So in the 90ties the French werent keen on Nato service anymore (in fact they had withdrawn from the active duty member role in reality but returned later). But there was no question that they would defend themselves and their neighbouring allied countries (mainly WGermany and Belgium in central front). So as soon someone in earnest may attack these countries the French will be involved...but most of their forces are already occupied in the med and atlantic and the southern front.There are no French navy assets available for the northsea and baltic regions (this wasnt their responsibility anyways). They provide some air assets however: At the airfield Cambrai they have assigned Mirages (2000s and F1s) as well asw forces in the form of 2 brandnew Atlantic2 and 2 Puma helos to Nato central command.... ROE for France: Their force can only be used if a hostile shot is fired on Belgium or WGerman territory....Cambrai is pretty much far away from Red bases so should face no direct attack normally. e) Germany (WEST): Provides the main force in the central front, severall bases are spread over the whole country as well the important war ports of Wilhelmshaven (Northsea) and Kiel/Eckernfoerde (Balticsea). Their bases are only medium in size with only "large" aircraft capacity - but some have good defenses in the form of Patriot batteries + Flak guns (most bases have Hawks+AA guns at least like all the others in W-Europe). The main exception is the huge military part of the airport Frankfurt/Main with 3 runways and Vlarge capacity! This is mostly used by the US airforce however. The Luftwaffe employs Tornados in interdiction/attack role, some of the new SEAD/recon versions "ECR" are already there. Since their F4s in the attack role are mostly now overtaken by the more modern Tornado, the German F4Fs were modified as specialized fighter versions with better radar, avionics and they can use AMRAAM missiles. But note this is an early version of the missile not much better except in range as the newer Sparrows (AMRAAM range 40nm, Sparrow 24nm)... also some light attack planes/trainers can used (here Hawks which substitue the Alpha Jet in game). Note that Tornados can fly at Vlow altitude with afterburner on. The Bundesmarine has as their main assets still the ex US destroyers of the Lutjens class (2 left at this time), Bremen frigates, as well 1 of a new frigate type just completed. They have an old destroyer still of the Hamburg class and auxilary tenders which should be protected (if possible?). Light forces are severall fast attack craft Excocet armed. Of course the light Diesel subs of class 206A not to forget....while only small they pack a heavy torpedo punch and are silent (untill they fire.....)..... the Marine also has Tornados (can be armed with Kormoran2 anti ship missiles) and severall Sea King and Atlantic1 as asw assets... f) The Netherlands (sometimes refered to as Holland or simply cheese and windmill country) They have 2 bases here: Soesterberg + Leuwaarden. While the first one holds a US airforce unit of F15s the latter has all the F16s in different loadouts. Dutch navy provides 2 Diesel subs as well a major sufarce fleet with 1 DD and 4 frigates. These are based at Den Helder port, where also the cheese ASW helos can be found. g) Norway: Is already beaten and occupied by Red - but neither side has any bases in range for this conflict. Part of the Norwegian airforce managed to flee to Denmark tho (mostly F5 "freedom fighters") h) USA (only air assets, their fleet has no business in this part of the front) Upper Heyford, UK vlarge and 3 runways: F111s, B52s (which are a just per coincidence here...) also the few Awacs Nato has in this scen can be found here. Soesterberg, NL: F15c Ramstein, Ger: F16, F4 "wild weasel" Bitburg,Ger: F15c Frankfurt/Main,Ger: F15 c+e (ferry loadout as they are ready to leave Germany) also here you find the large transport planes and helis. These are most important and should be protected of course. Losing too much important transports will certainly NOT improve Natos chances for surviving, even if in-game they are more or less useless....Also do not forget the Canadian CF18s at this airport. i) UK (air and 1 sub) Brits have 1 modern upholder diesel sub in the north of the baltic (mission was recon so it should stay only in emergency fire) Coltishall, UK: TornadoF3, Tornado GR4, Jaguar plus some AEW/ASW helis Laarbruch; Ger: Tornado GR4, Harrier NOTE1: There are no CAS planes ala A10 and only a few light attack planes (like the Hawk, Alpha Jet.. which are really roughly comparable) in this scen. As these were/are really for support of ground troops/training not for strikes on major ships or airports. But a few are provided which can be used for these purposes in emergencies. The RED side also has also only a few of these planes (if someone misses SU25 for example).....EDIT: You even allowed to use these "Alpha Jets" for ATA missions as I just read Alpha Jet could carry 2 sidewinders (as well in German version a 27mm Mauser) NOTE2: In V1 of this scen (which is the "easier" one) Nato has a few more planes (please look at some ports which will hold Harriers and the Belgians have differing OOB, more F16 no M 2000, but therefore M F1.....) But no big differences on Nato site.....as for Red I wont spoil that of course. You need to find out yourself... MEANWHILE: What happens at the front??? The politicians are concerned about the Russian reaction to the Danish reaction to their demands. They decide that now the point is reached where the fun ends and mobilize their forces. Nato will prepare to defend their member Denmark this time (better than Norway?) and themselfes.... So what does the intel say about the RED forces and their intentions??? It is assumed that the Russian generals are not very pleased with the Danish reaction. Marshall Ustinow even went in a rage he was reported yelling :" What dare this dwarf country to resist to our might and rightful demands.........". Plans obtained in the 80ties assume that speznas and air landing troops might attack important Nato assets, as well SSMs launched. As Russians are well aware that in modern war air suppority is needed to move large armies, they might try to neutralize airports and the assets on them. Ports like Wilhemshaven might be also priority targets . The East German and Polish forces werent as good as the Russians ones, but still they hold major roles. Like landing in Northern Germany or Denmark coasts and of course support the air campaign, but their ships are older and mostly small. a) Germany (EAST) Air: They provide all the bases for the Russian forces, as well substantiell strength of their own. However they should only have few Mig29s as planes that hold modern standards. They still employ MiG21 for mostly AtA duties but might also use them for strike (even if payload is small), their main combat plane is the Mig23 tho. They posess SU17/22 strike planes too. Exact locations and distribution of all the Red assets unknown, we only can identify numbers and size of planes (eg. we can of course tell from satellite recon if a airbase holds small Mig21 or TU16 bombers). We prepared for the commander a map where all our known infos are collected (select red base, click on full report)..... Navy: They have mostly older smaller Russian types, but built some own designs as well (eg. Balcom, Frosch LSTs). Osa1 missile boats can be expected, no submaries afawk......of course the Russians and Poles might help them out with ships.... Poland Provides bases for Russian airforce. Has good airforce themselfes too. Check the East Ger report, as it is roughly the same for Poland. However the main base is Brzeg (vlarge, 2 runways) which should be used by the Russians with modern planes....navy smaller but they might possess the one or other bigger older DD (Kashin?).... c) Russia Air: They have put all their Mig21s in reserve or gave them to allies. Main fighters are Mig29 and Su27. For special duties they use some Mig25 still also the newer Mig31 *could* be in service. Mig23 latest version still used. As for attack, Mig27 seem to be numerous, small numbers of Mig29 *could* be used in this role too (they have more payload!). Russia still retained some older SU17s too but modernized with eg. better missiles...the early SU24 were a huge step for the Russian strike forces and it should be the main plane now used for longer ranges, it *can* be that a even more capable EW/patrol/SEAD version is in service now. Bomber and recon forces still like the TU16s... but the far faster Backfires would be prefered. However these are often used for maritime strikes so it is questionable if they are available for land attacks...main bases of Russia: Kaliningrad, Brezg and St. Petersburg port. Check the whole map, so you do not oversee Red bases (hint) Navy: In this area not much cruisers should be expected cause the seas are to shallow and tight....but Russia has dozends of smaller craft, as well good numbers of DDs and FFs. They use older Kashins, together with modern Udaloys. New frigates might be in service, too. Russian base St. Petersburg is said to hold marine infantry so we can assume the landing ships to transport them are there too (Polnochny ? Alligator etc.?).... Russia uses merchants too in the role of landing support ships. Submarine thread should be high to servere.....mostly Diesel subs but we are not really sure about that aspect sadly....our knowledge of the Norwegian sea is slim cause Russia has air suppority there (there was a rumour that larger ships are headed there but we dont believe that Russia tries to intervene in the northsea, except with air+subs), slim too the recon of the northern baltic region, this is why we have sent our subs out. Blue Orders: a) Protect airspace and all installations If the red side should do something stupid, you are authorized to attack and destroy any red assets. Order of priority: bases, ports, major ships, bomber-fighter-attack planes, subs......and every other asset. c) Keep your forces intact for later ops. d) Protect our fleet and sortie out to the north and baltic seas (better wait untill if you have air suppority, dont!!! sortie the German ships too early!!! they may have trouble to deal with heavy air attacks) to hunt down the submarine pests we suspect there ! As well you might have trouble to control all the assets on your command at once. So leave the surface actions alone untill the air war cools down. e) Use the subsurface assets to gather intelligence on the Red fleet, but remember if you launch weapons you will mostly be detected early on. Heavy resistance by air ASW planes can be expected, so be careful. Red Orders: This scen is only playable by the blue side..... Click here to download this file

h) USA (only air assets, their fleet has no business in this part of the front) Upper Heyford, UK vlarge and 3 runways: F111s, B52s (which are a just per coincidence here...) also the few Awacs Nato has in this scen can be found here. Soesterberg, NL: F15c Ramstein, Ger: F16, F4 "wild weasel" Bitburg,Ger: F15c Frankfurt/Main,Ger: F15 c+e (ferry loadout as they are ready to leave Germany) also here you find the large transport planes and helis. These are most important and should be protected of course. Losing too much important transports will certainly NOT improve Natos chances for surviving, even if in-game they are more or less useless....Also do not forget the Canadian CF18s at this airport. i) UK (air and 1 sub) Brits have 1 modern upholder diesel sub in the north of the baltic (mission was recon so it should stay only in emergency fire) Coltishall, UK: TornadoF3, Tornado GR4, Jaguar plus some AEW/ASW helis Laarbruch; Ger: Tornado GR4, Harrier NOTE1: There are no CAS planes ala A10 and only a few light attack planes (like the Hawk, Alpha Jet.. which are really roughly comparable) in this scen. As these were/are really for support of ground troops/training not for strikes on major ships or airports. But a few are provided which can be used for these purposes in emergencies. The RED side also has also only a few of these planes (if someone misses SU25 for example).....EDIT: You even allowed to use these "Alpha Jets" for ATA missions as I just read Alpha Jet could carry 2 sidewinders (as well in German version a 27mm Mauser) NOTE2: In V1 of this scen (which is the "easier" one) Nato has a few more planes (please look at some ports which will hold Harriers and the Belgians have differing OOB, more F16 no M 2000, but therefore M F1.....) But no big differences on Nato site.....as for Red I wont spoil that of course. You need to find out yourself..... So what does the intel say about the RED forces and their intentions??? It is assumed that the Russian generals are not very pleased with the Danish reaction. Marshall Ustinow even went in a rage he was reported yelling :" What dare this dwarf country to resist to our might and rightful demands.........". Plans obtained in the 80ties assume that speznas and air landing troops might attack important Nato assets, as well SSMs launched. As Russians are well aware that in modern war air suppority is needed to move large armies, they might try to neutralize airports and the assets on them. Ports like Wilhemshaven might be also priority targets . The East German and Polish forces werent as good as the Russians ones, but still they hold major roles. Like landing in Northern Germany or Denmark coasts and of course support the air campaign, but their ships are older and mostly small. a) Germany (EAST) Air: They provide all the bases for the Russian forces, as well substantiell strength of their own. However they should only have few Mig29s as planes that hold modern standards. They still employ MiG21 for mostly AtA duties but might also use them for strike (even if payload is small), their main combat plane is the Mig23 tho. They posess SU17/22 strike planes too. Exact locations and distribution of all the Red assets unknown, we only can identify numbers and size of planes (eg. we can of course tell from satellite recon if a airbase holds small Mig21 or TU16 bombers). We prepared for the commander a map where all our known infos are collected (select red base, click on full report)..... Navy: They have mostly older smaller Russian types, but built some own designs as well (eg. Balcom, Frosch LSTs). Osa1 missile boats can be expected, no submaries afawk......of course the Russians and Poles might help them out with ships.... Poland Provides bases for Russian airforce. Has good airforce themselfes too. Check the East Ger report, as it is roughly the same for Poland. However the main base is Brzeg (vlarge, 2 runways) which should be used by the Russians with modern planes....navy smaller but they might possess the one or other bigger older DD (Kashin?).... c) Russia Air: They have put all their Mig21s in reserve or gave them to allies. Main fighters are Mig29 and Su27. For special duties they use some Mig25 still also the newer Mig31 *could* be in service. Mig23 latest version still used. As for attack, Mig27 seem to be numerous, small numbers of Mig29 *could* be used in this role too (they have more payload!). Russia still retained some older SU17s too but modernized with eg. better missiles...the early SU24 were a huge step for the Russian strike forces and it should be the main plane now used for longer ranges, it *can* be that a even more capable EW/patrol/SEAD version is in service now. Bomber and recon forces still like the TU16s... but the far faster Backfires would be prefered. However these are often used for maritime strikes so it is questionable if they are available for land attacks...main bases of Russia: Kaliningrad, Brezg and St. Petersburg port. Check the whole map, so you do not oversee Red bases (hint) Navy: In this area not much cruisers should be expected cause the seas are to shallow and tight....but Russia has dozends of smaller craft, as well good numbers of DDs and FFs. They use older Kashins, together with modern Udaloys. New frigates might be in service, too. Russian base St. Petersburg is said to hold marine infantry so we can assume the landing ships to transport them are there too (Polnochny ? Alligator etc.?).... Russia uses merchants too in the role of landing support ships. Submarine thread should be high to servere.....mostly Diesel subs but we are not really sure about that aspect sadly....our knowledge of the Norwegian sea is slim cause Russia has air suppority there (there was a rumour that larger ships are headed there but we dont believe that Russia tries to intervene in the northsea, except with air+subs), slim too the recon of the northern baltic region, this is why we have sent our subs out.

- Anti air artillery is preparing for the case of red air assaults, in this case a Gepard AA tank: - The Nato navies prepare too (here can be seen German surface fleet units, people hope they will not be sunk but seem to have not much hope as they already say "tschüß" and not "auf wiedersehen"): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osmijDLJRD0

- The UK BAOR (army of the rhine) are leaving Hildesheim to go into a eastern forward position, they do a parade as bye bye from the city (maybe there last one???) Citizens watching hope they come back alive.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ch2uR_RV-8 - German Panzers and Grenadiers march into their asigned sectors in case of something bad happens....while concerned citizens are fleeing in their cars to the more save western part of the country http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiQM_cwLsDo - Anti air artillery is preparing for the case of red air assaults, in this case a Gepard AA tank:

e) Hey ! See all those helos ! Do you want to launch missiles at them ? NO ! 1 Min later Hey ! See all those helos ! Do you want to launch missiles at them ? I already said NO 1 Min later Hey ! See all those helos ! Do you want to launch missiles at them ? SHUT THE *** UP !!!! I I already said twice that I dont want to lauch anything at them............ 1 Min later Hey ! See all those helos ! Do you want to launch missiles at them ? BOOOOOM (Pilot used pistol to shoot copilot) I hope your now QUIET at last............

f) The Netherlands (sometimes refered to as Holland or simply cheese and windmill country) They have 2 bases here: Soesterberg + Leuwaarden. While the first one holds a US airforce unit of F15s the latter has all the F16s in different loadouts. Dutch navy provides 2 Diesel subs as well a major surfarce fleet with 1 DD and 4 frigates. These are based at Den Helder port, where also the cheese ASW helos can be found. g) Norway: Is already beaten and occupied by Red - but neither side has any bases in range for this conflict. Part of the Norwegian airforce managed to flee to Denmark tho (mostly F5 "freedom fighters") MEANWHILE: What happens at the front??? The politicians are concerned about the Russian reaction to the Danish reaction to their demands. They decide that now the point is reached where the fun ends and mobilize their forces. Nato will prepare to defend their member Denmark this time (better than Norway?) and themselfes.... Luckily the Nato news agency was able to catch some of the actions and ban them on film which you can view here: - The modern DUTCH army mobilizes (but the common soldier does not seem concerned about the situation so impression from movie)Codenamed Operation "Donderslag": - Dutch Pionierpanzers are building dugouts:

I still play HC Gold and most of you will know this version, but maybe the funny things arent in the newest versions........... a) Sir, if we continue on this course we will run aground! Damn you, we have orders to stay on this course and so we will But....... No further discussion of orders from highest commands 10 Mins later..... BOOOOOOM Sir, we have run aground Yes? 20% damage..... Oh thats ok only 1 month in the dockyard... Damn, those SU27 are shooting missiles at us, lets run away asap afterburner on and runs away from missiles Whow that was close but we evaded them.... Well we can go back to normal cruise speed then, cause our fuel is quite low... What? Has anyone from above given that order??? No, but.......... Without order we stay on this course and speed! Ok, but........ 20 Mins later John, we really need to save fuel now, on this setting we run out soon Mike, NO ONE has ordered us to do so, or has anyone??? No, but............. 5 Mins later BOOOOOM c) We need to catch those ASW heli over there ! Mikael, are you sure thats not too far away ? Alexey, you dont want to question the superior range of our glorious communist built planes? Of course not, but............ Theres no but, orders are orders...... 10 mins. later Mikael, you know the imperialists have Patriot missiles in this area we are going to fly over? Of course I know, do you think I am stupid ? No, of course not, but... What but? Well if we are going the 200 miles direction northsea to catch that heli, we need to fly directly over the missile bases......also there are severall Tornados on the radar which might be a) a more worthy target and they are closer and c) they have AA missiles and even might be a danger to us I know this I said I am NOT stupid...but we have orders to catch that heli 10 mins later.... BOOOOM Alexey is hit by a Patriot it seems.......... Mh, his Su27 is burning but he could save himself, so no problem here....so I can now shoot this heli over there alone for my glory.!!!! 5 Mins later.... BOOOOM Col. Gregory: I report our flight of 2 SU27s disappeared. Well, they had the order to catch that heli over the sea..... did they? No, it seems 1 Su was shot down by a Patriot missile the other by a Tornado, what a shame our planes should out manouvre a Tornado which has only short range missiles... Ah, no comrade that was perfectly ok, they had order to shoot that heli and nothing more.... so send another patrol to finally get rid of it.... But, comrade colonel............. There is no "but" in the soviet army......send them hurry up !! But we should order another course, to avoid the Patriots! COMRADE: One more insubordination and I´ll tell the comissar same course and speed of course. d) Herr Kaleunt, we need to go to shallow depth.... Why, Schmidt? You know there are severall Russian frigates over there as well air patrols? Sure I know, Herr Kaleunt, but the sea bottom gets shallow here so we cant stay on intermediate depth What a pity Schmidt, this ***in baltic area is just to shallow... but our boats are built just for that iirc... didnt the navy say we only need these tiny boats where you cant get a proper sleep cause there is no room on these vessels....I want to go back to my destroyer.... Mh, yes but that is how it is......what are your orders ? Nothing man ! We wait for order from the Marinestab! But.......... 5 mins later........ BOOOM Schmidt !!! What was that noise??? Seems we have hit the bottom ! Well, we Stab hasnt given any order what to do.... I need to decide myself what to do now *panics* No problem, Kaleunt, no damage shall we no go to shallow depth? NO Schmidt we go to periscope depth, certain is certain. Also that noise is really annoying whemn we hit the ground. I want to avoid that, it hurts my ears........ But Kaleunt, you know that the periscope can be detected by the frigates over there, as well the IL38 Mays that are patrolling here? Schmidt, no I dont know that, cause I only know how to cook meals on a destroyer, but these are my orders! *sighs* ok. 5 mins later. BOOOOM Schmidt!!! I want to sleep - again such noise, I ordered periscope depth we can not hit the bottom again! KAPT we are sinking a torpedo hit us, they detected our periscope and launched 4 fish at us !!! We should have gone to shallow depth only..... Ah right. Well lets leave the boat..... I hope the Russians pick me up and stuck me in a quiet cell, where I can get a good sleep finally

Overview of the BLUE forces (this is in the 90ties, but no specific date): a) Belgium (only airforce - their few ships are employed in convoi duty and coastal patrol). They have mostly F16s and a few Mirages. Belgium had MirageIIIs but they are substituted with 2000s in game (there is also no MIII in the database for this batttleset). Also you can use some Alpha Jets for light bombing duties (these are substituted by Hawks in game cause no Alpha Jet in database). Bases represented are Kleine Brogel and Florennes (the latter the bigger one). Canada Canada had CF18s stationed in Germany. In this scen it is assumed they are mostly withdrawn, but the last ones are still there: At Frankfurt Rhein Main airport ready for departure to Canada (ferry loadout)...... c)Denmark They have also mostly F16s and a few Saab Draken. But also some F5s which fled from Norway. The Saab isnt in the database so you need to do without them, therefore the F16s look really cool (see pic). Also some Hawks are provided as light attack planes (or trainer but you do not need to train your pilots in this game). They also have some asw helis and all the US marine corps transport helos that fled from Norway. You should not lose too much of these transports they are needed for a air landing attack in Eastern Germany later....they have severall bases mostly at the coast (biggest one Copenhagen). Their navy consists of small corvettes, fast missile boats and diesel subs (2 of them in game). d)France: They always were (and wanted) something special and their own way. So in the 90ties the French werent keen on Nato service anymore (in fact they had withdrawn from the active duty member role in reality but returned later). But there was no question that they would defend themselves and their neighbouring allied countries (mainly WGermany and Belgium in central front). So as soon someone in earnest may attack these countries the French will be involved...but most of their forces are already occupied in the med and atlantic and the southern front.There are no French navy assets available for the northsea and baltic regions (this wasnt their responsibility anyways). They provide some air assets however: At the airfield Cambrai they have assigned Mirages (2000s and F1s) as well asw forces in the form of 2 brandnew Atlantic2 and 2 Puma helos to Nato central command.... ROE for France: Their force can only be used if a hostile shot is fired on Belgium or WGerman territory....Cambrai is pretty much far away from Red bases so should face no direct attack normally. e) Germany (WEST): Provides the main force in the central front, severall bases are spread over the whole country as well the important war ports of Wilhelmshaven (Northsea) and Kiel/Eckernfoerde (Balticsea). Their bases are only medium in size with only "large" aircraft capacity - but some have good defenses in the form of Patriot batteries + Flak guns (most bases have Hawks+AA guns at least like all the others in W-Europe). The main exception is the huge military part of the airport Frankfurt/Main with 3 runways and Vlarge capacity! This is mostly used by the US airforce however. The Luftwaffe employs Tornados in interdiction/attack role, some of the new SEAD/recon versions "ECR" are already there. Since their F4s in the attack role are mostly now overtaken by the more modern Tornado, the German F4Fs were modified as specialized fighter versions with better radar, avionics and they can use AMRAAM missiles. But note this is an early version of the missile not much better except in range as the newer Sparrows (AMRAAM range 40nm, Sparrow 24nm)... also some light attack planes/trainers can used (here Hawks which substitue the Alpha Jet in game). Note that Tornados can fly at Vlow altitude with afterburner on. The Bundesmarine has as their main assets still the ex US destroyers of the Lutjens class (2 left at this time), Bremen frigates, as well 1 of a new frigate type just completed. They have an old destroyer still of the Hamburg class and auxilary tenders which should be protected (if possible?). Light forces are severall fast attack craft Excocet armed. Of course the light Diesel subs of class 206A not to forget....while only small they pack a heavy torpedo punch and are silent (untill they fire.....)..... the Marine also has Tornados (can be armed with Kormoran2 anti ship missiles) and severall Sea King and Atlantic1 as asw assets...

Hi, well are you not one of the mods over there ? Can you move the posts to the correct forum, I guess it is this one: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=877 Well HC Gold has not much faults except the usual AI issues and some very annoying behaviours like "these planes have not enough fuel to engage the enemy" (but they have!) and if you say "no" to the questions if they should pursue they planes are send right back to base So you need to babysit you units more then neccesary I guess. I also find it funny if you order planes to afterburner to flee from enemy missiles for example, they might fly on this setting and finally crash for lack of fuel (in case you forget about this particular unit, but you dont get a warning message sometimes that they reach bingo fuel - they just crash ) So the pilots should have a bit more self confidence in themselves I guess, so they dont rely on order from the highest commander to go back to cruise setting and/or land the aircraft if fuel is low. But no without any order they just seem to sleep and fly at afterburner untill they hit the bottom. Thats a waste of expensive money for training pilots, isnt it `?? If these were EFs or F22s (expensive airframes!) than a whole smaller country could go bancrupt if a larger unit of these planes crash.... Like in my last game the message: "9 Tornado IDS of unit xyz have crashed due to lack of fuel" (ARRGGG I forgot about those, bites into table............ BTW: I watched some vids on youtube about red flag or maple flag exercises and the (radar)screens in their awacs and command centers dont look much different from Harpoon (they even have the small movement arrows there iirc cooool )

Well this forum seems to be more busy then over at Matrix so let me post this here too: This scen is already playable... there needed to be some minor changes, but I guess it is now too big and the scen editor crashes regulary. But the version I have now (better 2 version, 1 more "heavy" and Red has more stuff) is playable very good on the 2 systems I tested them on (older PCs so newer ones should have no prob at all). Heres the copy from 1st postings at Matrix (I´ll update these to have a little blog about the history and the equipment you have and face) http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3322907 NOTE: THIS WAS DESIGNED IN HARPOON GOLD 2002 - using the HDS9 battleset series3 "GIUK"....scen ready in mid of May most of you have this version I guess, maybe it runs on the modern Harpoon, too ?? Well I fired up Harpoon ca. 1 month ago, inspired by some cool vids on youtube with modern fighters and AA fire. I thought it seems their is no scen for Harp which modells the "cold war gone hot" in the central European front (NL,DK,B, France, Southeastern part of the UK, West+East Germany, Poland, USSR (or CIS like called in this battleset....). I will post more info as soon I playtested the scen, it has not dozends but hundreds of planes from all nations involved (ex: Mig21, Tornado, F16, FRG version F4, Mirages, SU27, TU16/22, MIG23,27,29 etc.)... some nice toys...also well ca. 200 ships and subs....most of them smaller types you normally dont see to much btw. I use Harpoon Gold from 2003 btw. I dont want to deal with the even heavier detail of the newest Harp version. It runs with Battleset No. 9 (enh. GIUK i believe). Well the orig. version had to be scaled down quite a bit, since it was way too massive (too much bases and different planes on these). In game every second a message popped up also very difficult to plan flights for the AI. Still this version has some of the main real historic Nato bases (like Bitburg,Ramstein, Soesterberg for the US or Leuwaarden for the Dutch, Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Nordholz+Laarbruch+Neuburg in W-Germany, as well some main military ports = Den Helder+Wilhelmshaven+Copenhagen). This should be played firstly only by BLUE side (I may do a version for RED if I get the time later). So in this Blog post I try to avoid giving too much info on the red side. But in the next post you will get an overview of the Blue forces, from a historic point and game point. I have the 1989 Nato OOB, whichw as the last Cold War year. However for severall reasons this plays in the 90ties. This means THE COLD WAR DID NOT END at the historical point. Rather it went well up in the 90ties - untill the great clash of the blocks happened.... STORYLINE (a little writing up for the scen so you get a clue what is about): Sometime in the 90ties: The coup in Russia succeeded. Not only was the president imprisoned but the freedom movements in Poland and the GDR (=East Germany) were supressed. Not with violence, but more "quietly". So the west had not much clues what went on at all. First they were shocked by the turmoil in the Kremlin, but soon the relations between the sides normalized, because the new government in Russia seemed reasonable. They wanted a new deal with the US for delivery of non millitary items and the US business needed new deals - pressured the white house to be more friendly with the east. So they did, also the West German cancellor who also was more a puppet of big corporations that wanted export to the east, met with eastern president Lisy to discuss new trade deals. He was impressed by the chance of language - the new officials seemed to be more realistic and friendly than the old guard around Honecker. But little did they know what was happening, as in reality the millitary planned to get back the old soviet glory and demand what was rightfully them. If demand wasn´t working, pressure maybe would.....first the old Finnish wound should be healed. As their demand was not really bad (a "leasing" of the old territories which the Generals felt belonged to Russia), the Fins caved in to not have a second winter war. But the Russians didn´t stop there, they wanted a better protection of their northern flank. Sweden was strictly neutral and too strong, so Norway was the only option.... NATO wasnt prepared at all, lulled in by the new warm climate between the blocks. But the homeguard was. But they were too few. Russian speznaz and paratroops suddenly stormed key bases and the tanks came later. There were not much Nato forces in Norway at all, so this was solved fast. The norwegian government called a ceasefire with the option offered by the Russians that only the northern half of the country will be occupied, the other half became a norwegian "vichy". The few US marines with their few helis and harriers fled to Denmark as well some left over planes from the Norway airforce (some F16+F5 Tigers). So all 3 countries in the north now were more (=Norway) or less (=Sweden) controlled by the USSR. While Nato was still discussing how to react, the Russians made their next coup, demanding from Denmark free passage for all shipping. If this demand would be fullfilled, the case would be settled and there would be peace again. So the Kremlin. The Denish had a resolute prime minister at this time, who send Moscow a package with a letter and a bottle in it: "You can have this bottle of Denish beer for free, but not more". Also it contained this bottle:

Well this is the version I have/use......... I know there are newer ones, but its ok for me (also I cannot imagine setting up all the air defenses in whole central europe like you need to do in HCE - I played the demo of course)...: But for the topic it seems finally they run out of SAMs - so the problem is only the machine gun like firing rate. I need to play HCE demo again to see how it is there.... PS: I also have the Amiga version still (maybe I should use this one?) and Harp Classic 97 in good conditions. If a collector is interested, send me a message Here is the info for the scen I wanted to build: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3311922

Hello, I noted that the SAMs in Harp 2002 Gold have a very high fire rate also seems unlimited rounds (?). Is there a way to correct this ? In my case I mean European bases (Ger,NL, DK, Belgium.... mainly) and the sam in question are Hawk + Patriot. Seems the eastern bases (means GDR,Poland, Russia) dont have this terrible ROF with their mainly SA2s. But I found no way to correct this in the scen editor cause you cannot tweak bases there at all ? Thanks. Frank (I was building a Cold War scen in middle Europe and during testing it showed you need a unrealistic high amount of missiles to hit these bases imo - I cannot imagine that in reality the sites can fire so fast and reload so fast - you know the message you get "XXX us reloading its mounts" BTW is there a way to let this annoying message dissapear?????)