File Name: Karafuto

File Submitter: CV32

File Submitted: 19 Feb 2011

File Updated: 20 Feb 2011

File Category: WestPac

DB Used: HCDB-110216

Authors: Brad Leyte

Battleset-WPac: .scq - WPac - WestPac

 

Karafuto

 

A Harpoon Commander's Edition scenario for the Westpac battleset.

 

This scenario is designed for play by the BLUE side.

 

At the conclusion of World War II, the Soviet Union annexed the sparsely populated islands of the Kuril archipelago, a region they had seized and occupied during an offensive undertaken in the closing days of the war. The peace treaty made between Tokyo and the allies underlined Japan's loss of the territory, but neither did it reinforce the Soviet claim. The sovereignty dispute over the Kurils has continued to simmer for decades, and now looks to boil over with the Japanese making moves reminiscent of the Karafuto Prefecture.

 

For a scenario from the opposing perspective, see the Westpac scenario 'August Storm'.

 

Click here to download this file

[CV32: SPOILER ALERT]

 

Karafuto scenario - AAR report of difficulties

 

I downloaded and saved the Karafuto scenario. Opened it up and it looked very interesting.

I have started and played it part-way thru 3 times now. I see some issues to discuss as the scenario as presented is

difficult or impossible to win.

This is designed to be run from the Blue side which is Russia. Blue victory conditions are: mininum -get the amphib

surface group to station around the Burevestnik port. Total - minumum condition plus destroy one red Base. My assumption

is that the red base should be one of the 2 Northern ones at ZJb or ZXa (Chitose).

 

Problems in competing as Blue. At the Red base at ZJb on the island, one of the ships is an Atago(BMD) DDG which is a

Japanese Aegis-type system. This ship has a loadout of SM-3 SAM missiles about 25 of them. These have an air range of 200

MI and a speed of 6,000 mph. Yes, 6 thousand. It's nearly impossible to get close to this ship. Also the base at

Burevestnik is INSIDE the SAM range. At med or high altitude these are brutal. Once the SM-3 is fired it can't be outrun

unless very close to the edge of the range circle. The only way to approach closer is to stay at Low altitude all the way

in, below the radar horizon. That way one can get in to 80 miles or a bit closer and fire the longer-range standoff

missiles of Harm or Surface strike varieties. And the problem is a shortage in the planes that can do that kind of

strike. At base ABa - Petropavlovsk - there are 2 SU-34 bombers that can do a loadout of 150-mile missiles 2x HARM + 2x

of Land strike. But just 2 planes. Also at ABa are 2 TU-22m3 Backfire bombers that can do several loadouts of anti-ship,

HARM or surface strike missiles. Best is the SEAD-LR loadout with 2x ARMs and 2x Surface strike or the AsuW loadout with

3 of the big shipkiller missiles. Again only 2 planes and they have to be reloaded from ASUW-LR first.

At the AAa base at Burevestnik, available strike planes. MIG-29a have an available SEAD loadout of 66-mi range ARM

missiles. There is a group of SU-25 strike planes but no loadout with more than a 5 mile offset, therefore useless until

SAM are destroyed. At base ADa near the coast there are SU-25s again with no long-range offset strike weapons. The SU-27sm

Flankers can take a loadout with AGM weapons with a 55 mi range. At Ukrainka back in the interior there are very

good and excellent interceptor planes SU-35 Flanker x4 and SU-50 Pak x2 (love that 94-mi range AAM). There are 2 MIG-29a

that can do the SEAD loadout with 66-mi range. So that makes a total of 4 strike aircraft nearby and 4 that can do a SEAD

loadout. And 2 more with SEAD loadout that can be brought over from Ukrainka. After doing a first strike with the SU-34s

and the Backfires, while waiting for reload I was reduced to using a flight of 2 Flankers to do manuevers near the edge of the range circle of the

SM-3 to try and use up some missiles. First fly in at High alt Low speed until the Atago fired, then turn out and use

afterburner until out of range. This worked a couple of times to use up some of the missiles. Until I got a little too

far inside the range and got shot down.

The other problem is that the ships can't be fired at! When I did get in range for the anti-surface missiles, it won't

let me fire at the Atago or the CVH. The ships are not in their own surface group, they are in the formation of the port and base. The message

was "there are no land attack weapons available". Kind of a handicap for Blue, you could say.

 

The other problem is the F-35 Lightning. Red has been given a supply of these. I guess this scenario is in the future

since these are not deployed anywhere yet. There are 6 F-35 at ZJb and about another 40 at bases farther South. The F-35

has AMRAAM missiles with 60 and 44-mile ranges as AAM weapons. Also it is rather stealthy. The Blue interceptors don't

match up well with these. When trying to get close at ZJb from the Burev direction, pairs of F-35 would pop up suddenly

usually within range already of Blue. Or else they would be in range of the 60-mi weapon but Flankers would be out of

range. Also the AMRAAMs seemed to be stealthy also as they would show up only at the last second or not at all before

hitting. So the F-35s were almost untouchable and my Flankers were getting steadily picked off. As well as the MIG-29s

trying to deliver a SEAD load.

I went to the Scenario Editor and modified a bit. Removing the F-35s from the ZJb base and

some of the other bases, and adding in some other interceptors as compensation. Also doubled the SU-34 group to 4 planes.

 

On playing from that start, it looks like it will take a LONG time to keep striking the ZJb position with the long-range

strikers until Red runs out of that incredible missile. Are you sure this is a valid loadout? There is a battery of I

think Patriot missiles at the port are too. I lost the MIG-29s because I did not give them an escort and they got jumped.

Blue needs an AEW mission in that area, more planning on the Blue commander's part. And the F-35s started showing up from the more distand Red bases and firing HARMs and JASSMs at the AAa base. I often did not even see the planes before seeing the missiles.

 

I guess if I back off to just trying for Min Victory and getting the SAG around to the target, and pick off all the

aircraft that I can, it might be possible. But those F-35s are deadly. It looks like Blue will run out of interceptors

first and then that SAG would be a sitting duck as it does not have much for AAM weapons.

 

Any comments? I'm sure some will do better than I was doing, but this one looks Very Difficult to me. And maybe needs a

little balancing.

This is designed to be run from the Blue side which is Russia. Blue victory conditions are: mininum -get the amphib surface group to station around the Burevestnik port. Total - minumum condition plus destroy one red Base. My assumption is that the red base should be one of the 2 Northern ones at ZJb or ZXa (Chitose).

 

It doesn't matter which base you destroy (the idea being to convince the Japanese that the islands aren't worth it) but your reasoning is sound.

 

Problems in competing as Blue. At the Red base at ZJb on the island, one of the ships is an Atago(BMD) DDG which is a Japanese Aegis-type system. This ship has a loadout of SM-3 SAM missiles about 25 of them. These have an air range of 200 MI and a speed of 6,000 mph. Yes, 6 thousand. It's nearly impossible to get close to this ship. Also the base at Burevestnik is INSIDE the SAM range. At med or high altitude these are brutal. Once the SM-3 is fired it can't be outrun unless very close to the edge of the range circle. The only way to approach closer is to stay at Low altitude all the way in, below the radar horizon. That way one can get in to 80 miles or a bit closer and fire the longer-range standoff missiles of Harm or Surface strike varieties.

 

If you play the scenario with the latest version of the database (HCDB-110401), you will find that the SM-3 engagement envelope has been adjusted to focus it on the anti-TBM mission. This keeps the SM-3 from being used (sometimes wasted) in the anti-air warfare role.

 

And the problem is a shortage in the planes that can do that kind of strike.

 

Entirely intentional. Note that you don't even get the Backfires every time.

 

The other problem is that the ships can't be fired at! When I did get in range for the anti-surface missiles, it won't let me fire at the Atago or the CVH. The ships are not in their own surface group, they are in the formation of the port and base. The message was "there are no land attack weapons available". Kind of a handicap for Blue, you could say.

 

A persistent bug at work here, I am afraid.

 

The other problem is the F-35 Lightning. Red has been given a supply of these. I guess this scenario is in the future since these are not deployed anywhere yet.

 

Well, of course, as the Russians don't have Mistral yet either.

 

There are 6 F-35 at ZJb and about another 40 at bases farther South. The F-35 has AMRAAM missiles with 60 and 44-mile ranges as AAM weapons. Also it is rather stealthy. The Blue interceptors don't

match up well with these

 

Outside of Kopp being really upset, I don't see a problem. You've determined that you're outmatched viz a vis the F-35. Figure something out to minimize the enemy's advantage there.

 

Blue needs an AEW mission in that area, more planning on the Blue commander's part.

 

Now that makes sense!

 

Any comments? I'm sure some will do better than I was doing, but this one looks Very Difficult to me. And maybe needs a little balancing.

 

Its supposed to be difficult. I'm not much for the 'push over' scens.

Hooray Brad! Keep'em coming. One thing: Not being able to engage a significant SAM asset separately really pollutes scenario play. I'd split those ships off. Maybe add a 0KT unit to keep them from straying. I'm sure that the key to success will be to win by inches, and to have a through knowledge of the capabilities of your aircraft, weapons, and sensors (and those of the enemy) will be essential. This scenario may seem hopelessly fussy and complicated to those of us in the "long live democracy and release the Harpoons" crowd. But it will show all of us how it is to be Russian these days, with real limits and a real chance of failure. Perfect. I'm going to try this one soon, and I have not looked at it with SE. I'm going to try the following tricks-

(SPOILER)

(SPOILER)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 The SM-3 will not engage a target below high altitude. But if you fly a TU-22M in at low and launch an AS-4, it WILL engage the missile.

2 You have many A/C faster than the F-35. The AI will RTB any assigned intercept aircraft that cannot catch their target. Ring any bells?

3 The ageis system is a fearsome AAW asset, on a ship...... a ship... you have a sub in the area... patience, grasshopper..

4 You have AAW missiles that outrange enemy SAM's. He has ASW helicopters. grasshopper...

5 Protect your aircraft. They are essential to protect the amphibs (ASW/AAW) and to attrit defenses at the destination. Run away. Try to lure enemy fighters with good surface search radars away from the Mistral group, and then send them home by running away on burner. A RTB is a mission kill. tank and repeat.

6 D you know which of you A/C have passive ECM? You should.

 

I will let you know how I do

One thing: Not being able to engage a significant SAM asset separately really pollutes scenario play. I'd split those ships off. Maybe add a 0KT unit to keep them from straying.

 

I didn't want the Aegis ship to be easily detectable, as it supposed to be moored in the harbor surrounded more or less by high terrain.

 

As well, HCE gives the anti-ship shooter a considerable break when it comes to engaging ship targets close to land. We suffer no penalty for radar shadow or clutter, but a ship laying in the shadow of terrain should be a difficult target.

One thing: Not being able to engage a significant SAM asset separately really pollutes scenario play. I'd split those ships off. Maybe add a 0KT unit to keep them from straying.

 

I didn't want the Aegis ship to be easily detectable, as it supposed to be moored in the harbor surrounded more or less by high terrain.

 

As well, HCE gives the anti-ship shooter a considerable break when it comes to engaging ship targets close to land. We suffer no penalty for radar shadow or clutter, but a ship laying in the shadow of terrain should be a difficult target.

 

(sigh) Fair enough. I guess I'm going to stop whining and try to win this one....

(sigh) Fair enough. I guess I'm going to stop whining and try to win this one....

 

Heh, you did a good job of describing potential ways of exploiting enemy weaknesses and maximizing your own strengths.

 

If people still can't win with the SM-3 neutered, I'll look at moving the Aegis ship offshore.

Well, at least I started a discussion. Yes, I should have put a Spoiler Alert on it. Brad, I am glad to see new and interesting scenarios being created. And keeping them challenging is good too. I just wanted to discuss a few issues on this one, and see if maybe a couple of tweaks were in order.

 

As to a few of the comments. Use a sub to attack the ships at ZJb. Yes there is a sub available. My patience at maneuvering a sub in from a distance of 200 miles or so is not very good. Also I was concerned about the survival of the Blue bases if Red had an easy path in from the direction of that base for several hours. Some of the Red planes are coming with attack loadouts (keeping vague on this for spoiler reasons).

 

I'm not up-to-date on weapons loads on the ships. Is it reasonable for an Aegis DDG to have that many SM-3 missiles on it? I'm currently using the HCDB-110304. The planes are definitely targeted by the SM-3 at Hi or Med altitudes. I did discover, due to desperation at imminent destruction, that diving a plane group down to Low altitude when still a few miles inside the max. range would usually cause the missile to miss or fizzle out. Not a tactic that one would like to have to count on.

 

As to the F-35s. Yes there are planes available with longer ranged AAMs. But they are not in the right locations at the start. And they are painfully few. After some rearranging of assets it could be interesting to see how that works out. I want to hear how some others do on this. But there are several times more F-35s than the high-end Blue planes like the SU-35 and SU-50.

 

The comment that the few strike aircraft with long-range standoff weapons being intentional. Yes, I figured that, but it's a bit painful. A commander always wants more strike weapons, don't they?? And if just a couple of flights of these planes are lost the mission is over. Again, it will be interesting to see how others fare on this.

 

I do think that the ships at least should be in their own Surface Group instead of part of the formation for the base. The targeting is too much of an issue. And will a sub even be able to attack? Or will it get the same land-attack issue. As to concealing the ships, they are not visible until a radar asset gets close enough. But that big red circle at 200-mile radius kind of gives it away in HCE.

I'm not up-to-date on weapons loads on the ships. Is it reasonable for an Aegis DDG to have that many SM-3 missiles on it?

 

Yep. Its their principal reason for being.

 

I'm currently using the HCDB-110304. The planes are definitely targeted by the SM-3 at Hi or Med altitudes. I did discover, due to desperation at imminent destruction, that diving a plane group down to Low altitude when still a few miles inside the max. range would usually cause the missile to miss or fizzle out. Not a tactic that one would like to have to count on.

 

I'd suggest trying it with HCDB-110401 or later where the SM-3 won't pose the same threat.

 

As to the F-35s. Yes there are planes available with longer ranged AAMs. But they are not in the right locations at the start. And they are painfully few. After some rearranging of assets it could be interesting to see how that works out. I want to hear how some others do on this. But there are several times more F-35s than the high-end Blue planes like the SU-35 and SU-50.

 

Most players achieve very favourable kill ratios when playing against the AI. You will have to use your best assets (though they are intentionally few in number) to your best advantage.

 

The comment that the few strike aircraft with long-range standoff weapons being intentional. Yes, I figured that, but it's a bit painful. A commander always wants more strike weapons, don't they?? And if just a couple of flights of these planes are lost the mission is over. Again, it will be interesting to see how others fare on this.

 

Yeah, we all want the nice toys, but sometimes (perhaps especially if you're a Russian these days) you just have to play with the cards that are dealt to you.

 

I do think that the ships at least should be in their own Surface Group instead of part of the formation for the base. The targeting is too much of an issue. And will a sub even be able to attack? Or will it get the same land-attack issue.

 

Good question. Someone will have to test it and see.

 

As to concealing the ships, they are not visible until a radar asset gets close enough. But that big red circle at 200-mile radius kind of gives it away in HCE.

 

You can turn off the range circles.