Total victory conditions

[donaldseadog]

I'm testing some of the PAK's new EC2003 scenarios and am stuck with a total victory condition (scenario 5, sink three amphibious ships).

I can only get this complete vic condition if I've scored a minimum victory. Is this normal?

D

[Akula]

While it might not be normal, it is possible. Some scenerios can be considered 'All or Nothing' and may not have minimum or total victory conditions. In this case, it seems the only objective might be the sinking of the three amphibious ships, so the scenario really only has a total victory condition.

 

I personally think the terminology can be a bit misleading. I like to think of it this way:

 

Minimum Victory is a tactical victory.

Total Victory is a strategic victory.

[private]

I'm testing some of the PAK's new EC2003 scenarios and am stuck with a total victory condition (scenario 5, sink three amphibious ships). I can only get this complete vic condition if I've scored a minimum victory. Is this normal? D

 

I think you have stumbled on the issue of ordering the victory conditions, something I mentioned earlier in the relevant Issue Tracker thread.

 

It has been my experience that you get odd results from the SE if the vicconds are not ordered just so. It would be nice to track and record exactly how this works; to my knowledge that has never been done.

[private]

While it might not be normal, it is possible. Some scenerios can be considered 'All or Nothing' and may not have minimum or total victory conditions. In this case, it seems the only objective might be the sinking of the three amphibious ships, so the scenario really only has a total victory condition. I personally think the terminology can be a bit misleading. I like to think of it this way: Minimum Victory is a tactical victory. Total Victory is a strategic victory.

 

Regarding the philosophy of victory conditions generally, the manual describes it this way:

 

Minimum victory is the condition that a player must meet to minimally complete a mission. After a player has met minimum victory conditions, he can either quit the game or go for “total victory”. Total victory is the complete defeat of the enemy, beyond merely carrying out orders. Note that one side’s victory conditions may not be exclusive of the other side’s victory conditions. Thus in a typical scenario, both sides can meet their victory conditions, minimum and total. In this case, the side reaching each victory level first is declared the winner.

[Akula]

I assume then that since I always add in minimum victory conditions first for both sides, followed by total victory for both sides is the reason I've never stumbled on this issue?

[wombat1417]

Run the scenario through the Scenario Editor and see what the all the Victory Conditions are. Something might just need to be tweeked a bit.

(P.S. Golden Retrievers rate just slightly below Basset Hounds in the "Wonderfulness" catagory.)

[donaldseadog]

Run the scenario through the Scenario Editor and see what the all the Victory Conditions are. Something might just need to be tweeked a bit.

(P.S. Golden Retrievers rate just slightly below Basset Hounds in the "Wonderfulness" catagory.)

(I'm actually a kelpie Man myself, but the retriever photo was handy)

Back to the issue.

A lot of good comments, thanks.

The victory conditions are a bit more complex than most scenarios I feel, that has been mentioned in the applicable issue tracker thread.

There certainly are minimum red victory conditions (all 'or') and more than one total red victory condition (all 'or'). It seems with the total red victory = sink three amphibious it works if you've already gotten a minimum red victory but not if you get straight to the total victory condition. I seem to think though that I've seen a total victory with out first getting a minimal victory for other victory conditions.

I made copies of the scenario with all sorts of tweeking to the victory conditions but haven't really been able to make up some "rule".

I'll go back to the scenario editor and try more fiddles with a simplified version of the scenario.

I welcome any further comments, thanks.

Woof.

[donaldseadog]

Run the scenario through the Scenario Editor and see what the all the Victory Conditions are. Something might just need to be tweeked a bit.

(P.S. Golden Retrievers rate just slightly below Basset Hounds in the "Wonderfulness" catagory.)

(I'm actually a kelpie Man myself, but the retriever photo was handy)

Back to the issue.

A lot of good comments, thanks.

The victory conditions are a bit more complex than most scenarios I feel, that has been mentioned in the applicable issue tracker thread.

There cert.......................y conditions.

I made copies of the scenario with all sorts of tweeking to the victory conditions but haven't really been able to make up some "rule".

I'll go back to the scenario editor and try more fiddles with a simplified version of the scenario.

I welcome any further comments, thanks.

Woof.

I've attached a very small scenario from EC2003 GIUK (I used HCDB 100308, GE 2009.48 to play). Red and Blue each have an air base and an undefended base and each have strike aircraft.

Here are the victory conditions (from the SE):

ANALYZING VICTORY CONDITIONS:

BLUE MINIMUM VICTORY CONDITION (OR) 1:

2 bases must be damaged at 20%.

BLUE TOTAL VICTORY CONDITION (OR) 1:

1 base must be killed.

RED TOTAL VICTORY CONDITION (OR) 1:

1 base must be killed.

 

MISSING RED MINIMUM VICTORY CONDITIONS!!

Notice that red has no minimum victory conditions, just to test something.

Play blue side and kill one base (without damaging the other base) No victory condition is awarded! Now damage the second base (I suggest send only two bombers) more than 20% but don't destroy it, you are now awarded the total victory.

The 'rule' seems to be that to get the total victory you have to obtain a minimum victory either before hand, after or simultaneously (of fulfilling the total victory condition). The total victory is awarded if both minimum and total victory conditionsare met.

Just to check Red has no minimum victory condition (and the SE warns you of this, implying it is necessary!). Kill both bases and you get nothing awarded.

Does this apply to all battlesets? I'd assume so.

Therefore players need to know that they have to follow basic orders (and fulfil minimum victory conditions) before going for glory.

I also wonder if it would be good to have the victory conditions in the orders or somewhere accessible to the player.

woof

victory_conditions.zip

[Akula]

If this is the case, it is an issue and should probably be written up in the issue tracker. This does seem like one that is simple enough to fix, just add in a minimum victory condition that is the same as the total conditions already there. At which point you get both conditions triggered on completion.

[donaldseadog]

If this is the case, it is an issue and should probably be written up in the issue tracker. This does seem like one that is simple enough to fix, just add in a minimum victory condition that is the same as the total conditions already there. At which point you get both conditions triggered on completion.

I like your solution, on looking in more detail at the scenario in question, the other of the two total victory conditions (Kill four bases) has one of the minimum victory conditions damage four bases - so that's why it always works.

I kind of wonder maybe it is correct to 'insist' on meeting the minimum before being awarded the total, I think you, Akula, pointed out your terminology 'tactical' and strategic' victories and we should always I think be going for the tactical as a minimum result, so to speak.??

Don

[Akula]

If this is the case, it is an issue and should probably be written up in the issue tracker. This does seem like one that is simple enough to fix, just add in a minimum victory condition that is the same as the total conditions already there. At which point you get both conditions triggered on completion.

I like your solution, on looking in more detail at the scenario in question, the other of the two total victory conditions (Kill four bases) has one of the minimum victory conditions damage four bases - so that's why it always works.

I kind of wonder maybe it is correct to 'insist' on meeting the minimum before being awarded the total, I think you, Akula, pointed out your terminology 'tactical' and strategic' victories and we should always I think be going for the tactical as a minimum result, so to speak.??

Don

 

That is generally the way I look at it.

[TonyE]

From the code...

 

Total Victory conditions are not checked until Minimum Victory for the side in question is achieved (this one I'm sure about). There appears to be no relationship between the order of entry of victory conditions and the checking thereof (though such things are tough to read so in this there is a chance I'm wrong).

 

It appears we could detach the requirement for minimum victory to preceed total victory without introducing many nightmares (other than designer intent in existing scenarios).

[donaldseadog]

From the code...

 

Total Victory conditions are not checked until Minimum Victory for the side in question is achieved (this one I'm sure about). There appears to be no relationship between the order of entry of victory conditions and the checking thereof (though such things are tough to read so in this there is a chance I'm wrong).

 

It appears we could detach the requirement for minimum victory to preceed total victory without introducing many nightmares (other than designer intent in existing scenarios).

Thanks for that confirmation Tony.

The way I look at it the only thing that needs to be done is to ensure that following the given orders successfully is guaranteed to give minimum victory. some times orders are pretty 'tight' so no problems but other times problems can occur (it is up to scenario designers I guess, but they need to know the situation)..

EG in a scenario I looked at last night (EC2003 scneario 12) a necessary minimum victory achievement is to have bombers on station for a given time, in the orders the only requirement that seems to relate to this is having bombers proceed to a failsafe (I think that is the term) position. The actual 'on station' rectangle is quite small on a regional basis so even if you understand the failsafe terminology (I'm not sure I do!) it is still a bit of luck that you choose the right spot. Now I refer to this as an example only, often I read a post where people have had problems getting any victory even though they have destroyed the whole opponent's forces.

People with more experience than me comment please.

[broncepulido]

Now I refer to this as an example only, often I read a post where people have had problems getting any victory even though they have destroyed the whole opponent's forces.

People with more experience than me comment please.

Yes, I'm often in the same situation. Only after the game play I open the scenario file and read the victory conditions (for sake of elude spoilers).

And yes, many times the victory conditions are difficult, unimaginable or impossible to fill, but you have whipped out all the oposition forces in that same scenario

Sometimes are dubtious victory conditions or clearly unthinkable (as to imagine a determinated map rectangle where you must positionate some indetermined forces, and the map rectangle not is neither clearly determinated), but other times obscure victory conditions are the result of the scenario designer pretending to create a fog of war situation (in the real world many times you don't known what you must do to win, many times the situation it's not as clear as you sink the enemy CV, you win ), or to represent the incertitudes of the war outcome, or to represent a determinated political element (as if a merchant ship obtain a damage point, that's a representation of the merchant ship boarded/capturated by the pirate forces ), but I think in those situations, the scenario designer must write clearly those obscure victory conditions, or the scenario would be frustrating and unplayable.

[Akula]

Now I refer to this as an example only, often I read a post where people have had problems getting any victory even though they have destroyed the whole opponent's forces.

People with more experience than me comment please.

Yes, I'm often in the same situation. Only after the game play I open the scenario file and read the victory conditions (for sake of elude spoilers).

And yes, many times the victory conditions are difficult, unimaginable or impossible to fill, but you have whipped out all the oposition forces in that same scenario

Sometimes are dubtious victory conditions or clearly unthinkable (as to imagine a determinated map rectangle where you must positionate some indetermined forces, and the map rectangle not is neither clearly determinated), but other times obscure victory conditions are the result of the scenario designer pretending to create a fog of war situation (in the real world many times you don't known what you must do to win, many times the situation it's not as clear as you sink the enemy CV, you win ), or to represent the incertitudes of the war outcome, or to represent a determinated political element (as if a merchant ship obtain a damage point, that's a representation of the merchant ship boarded/capturated by the pirate forces ), but I think in those situations, the scenario designer must write clearly those obscure victory conditions, or the scenario would be frustrating and unplayable.

 

Part of the problem there is that the scenario designer does not make clear what your objectives actually are. I really put forth effort to make sure you understand what you must do to win both the minimum and total conditions.