What's the best way to attack SAM site in a base?

My aircrafts keep getting popped ...

 

Thank you.

What's the best way to attack SAM site in a base? My aircrafts keep getting popped ... Thank you.

 

Rather an open ended question, so let's start with the basics and go from there ...

 

If the SAM site is modeled as a mobile land unit (MLU), as most are these days in HCE, it will appear as its own symbol on the Unit Map. If its attached to a base ZYa, for example, it might appear as unit ZY01.

 

To attack such a unit, you need to attack the base (ZYa), and then select the SAM site ZY01 from the list of potential options (assuming you have detected/located it, it is in range, and you have suitable weapons to do so).

 

If the SAM site is not modeled as an MLU, then it will be "built in" the base installation and won't appear as a separate unit. Here you simply attack the base itself with the appropriate weapons (typically anti-radar missiles).

 

I suspect you're driving at something more along the lines of tactics and strategy, however, and I'll let you clarify.

This is how I currently attack a base:

Select 10 Hornets with AGM and send it to "destroy" the base I want.

Well, they fly straight into the base, and get destroyed themselves.

So, I don't think I'm doing my attack correctly.

 

I should send a recon? and then attack at the mobile sam as CV32 suggested (I usually don't see a separate window for this)?

 

Thank you : )

Alright, now we're getting into the issue.

 

This is how I currently attack a base: Select 10 Hornets with AGM and send it to "destroy" the base I want. Well, they fly straight into the base, and get destroyed themselves. So, I don't think I'm doing my attack correctly.

 

Afraid I must answer with a series of questions to dig deeper:

 

1. Is there a particular scenario?

2. What kind of Hornets?

3. What kind of AGM?

4. Does the enemy base have SAMs arrayed in formation around its perimeter (in the MLU fashion described earlier) or is it just the base with the SAMs 'built in'?

5. Are you micro managing the attack at all, or just letting the aircraft do their thing?

 

I should send a recon? and then attack at the mobile sam as CV32 suggested (I usually don't see a separate window for this)? Thank you : )

 

Some degree of reconnaissance is almost always necessary when suppressing enemy air defences (SEAD). Especially when you're dealing with SAMs modeled as MLUs (as earlier discussed). You need to detect, locate and assess a base's air defenses prior to your attack. Last minute surprises are usually unpleasant.

 

Sometimes this means a dedicated recon aircraft, typically something with a good surface search radar or ESM suite. With many modern strike aircraft, however, they have most if not all of these abilities themselves, but you may not want them lingering in the area for too long performing recon when they oughta be putting iron down on the target.

 

Do you see your Unit window? Typically in the lower left hand corner? This is where you can get a look at SAM sites that are modeled as MLUs.

I'm playing the GUIK classic 11.0 Kelflavik mission.

NATO side.

F18s are carrying Guided.

 

Easy mission once I overwhelm the base with my carrier aircrafts.

 

I do notice that missile flies out of the base, but I can't target the SAM, just the base.

Like you mentioned, it's probably build into the base.

I was just wondering if there is some other ways that I'm not aware of that can find these SAM and destroy them...

When I shot the Guided missile at the base, how does this work? SAM will always be there as long as base is not destroyed?

 

Thank you: )

I'm playing the GUIK classic 11.0 Kelflavik mission. NATO side. F18s are carrying Guided. Easy mission once I overwhelm the base with my carrier aircrafts. I do notice that missile flies out of the base, but I can't target the SAM, just the base. Like you mentioned, it's probably build into the base. I was just wondering if there is some other ways that I'm not aware of that can find these SAM and destroy them ... When I shot the Guided missile at the base, how does this work? SAM will always be there as long as base is not destroyed? Thank you: )

 

That clarifies things immensely, thanks.

 

Yes, the air defenses (SAMs and anti-aircraft artillery) are "built into" Keflavik in this scenario.

 

To attack those air defenses, you need only to attack the base itself.

 

However, the 'Guided' loadout, which arms your F/A-18 Hornets with the AGM-65B Maverick missile, is not the best choice for dealing with the SAMs/AAA.

 

A better choice here would be the 'Antiradar' or 'LR Antiradar' loadout, which arms your aircraft with the AGM-88 HARM missile, an anti-radar missile designed to home on enemy radar emissions and knock out the radars, thereby 'blinding' the air defenses.

 

I'd suggest using these anti-radar missiles to kill Keflavik's radars, and then move on to weapons that attack the installation itself.

 

Good hunting!

I'm playing the GUIK classic 11.0 Kelflavik mission. NATO side. F18s are carrying Guided. Easy mission once I overwhelm the base with my carrier aircrafts. I do notice that missile flies out of the base, but I can't target the SAM, just the base. Like you mentioned, it's probably build into the base. I was just wondering if there is some other ways that I'm not aware of that can find these SAM and destroy them ... When I shot the Guided missile at the base, how does this work? SAM will always be there as long as base is not destroyed? Thank you: )

 

That clarifies things immensely, thanks.

 

Yes, the air defenses (SAMs and anti-aircraft artillery) are "built into" Keflavik in this scenario.

 

To attack those air defenses, you need only to attack the base itself.

 

However, the 'Guided' loadout, which arms your F/A-18 Hornets with the AGM-65B Maverick missile, is not the best choice for dealing with the SAMs/AAA.

 

A better choice here would be the 'Antiradar' or 'LR Antiradar' loadout, which arms your aircraft with the AGM-88 HARM missile, an anti-radar missile designed to home on enemy radar emissions and knock out the radars, thereby 'blinding' the air defenses.

 

I'd suggest using these anti-radar missiles to kill Keflavik's radars, and then move on to weapons that attack the installation itself.

 

Good hunting!

 

To be honest, if you can successfully knock out the radar at the base with the older 'defense attached' bases, you could simply iron bomb it afterwards, though do so from high since the guns can still go optical.

 

A good strategy for it would be to launch the Anti-radar raid first (make it a moderate to large one) then launch a bombing run shortly after to follow it in. Give the AR missiles time to blind the base then your actual attack package is already in position for it's bomb run without you having to wait a long time for it to get there.

In my recent experience (in the context SAMs and mobiles attached to bases), it's a bit of a mixed bag:

 

If you have SEAD (anti-radar) weapons available, it's most always best to knock out the complex's radars first (although this can be problematic in some cases because it seems that some elements of some bases don't radiate until your aircraft come into SAM range, so you can't necessarily kill all of the radars from stand-off range. I've also seen cases where, after initial SEAD attacks, the base's radar range circles were still showing active, yet it would not allow further attacks by SEAD weapons).

 

If you have no anti-radiation weapons (as in the Middleweights scenario), then you're going to have to mass your attacks with other types of weapons - because your aircraft losses are going to be severe, especially if you try to use small attack groups.

 

Even after successfully blinding the complex's radar, attacks on the elements of the base can be dicey because of two things:

 

First, any fixed SAM sites apparently are capable of downing your aircraft at range - even after their radar has been knocked out.

 

Second, with radar off, any mobile AD units that are attached to the base will remain undetected until you get into visual range of them, and will likely shoot your aircraft before you can initiate any attack on them. This can be avoided to some extent via recon platforms "pre-detecting" the mobiles - unfortunately, the recon platforms are just as susceptible to getting well into AA range (and getting shot down) before detecting the mobiles... thus, you need to have the attackers very close behind the recons, so when the recons get downed, the attackers will still be close enough to hit the mobile target before its detection "expires". This can involve a nightmare of micro-management of coordination between the recon and attacking groups.

 

I often try to knock out the attached elements before going after the base proper, because the attached elements generally seem to be more effective AA platforms, so if I can get them out of the way, then I can more safely attack the base with "less capable" weapons/aircraft.

 

On occaision, I've tried to attack attached elements of a base with attack helicopters rather than with fixed-wing aircraft. The helicopters' weapons are fairly effective against mobile platforms, (but not so much against SAM sites) and can safely operate at VLow altitude, so they generally can get close enough to attack before being shot down.

 

In my own experience with fixed-wing attackers, it does not appear to make much difference what altitude the attackers use in terms of minimizing losses of the attacking aricraft: If I fly them in at Medium or High altitude, then they get shot down sooner, but if I use Low altitude, an equal number get shot down closer to the target. In desperate cases, I may try VLow, but that usually results in comparable losses from "pilot error".

 

Bottom line is that Red bases with attached elements - especially SAM sites - can be tough nuts to crack (especially seeing the Red SAMs tend to have extreme ranges compared to the Blue SAMs).

First, any fixed SAM sites apparently are capable of downing your aircraft at range - even after their radar has been knocked out.

 

Must have been non-radar guided SAMs. Plenty of those out there.

 

Second, with radar off, any mobile AD units that are attached to the base will remain undetected until you get into visual range of them, and will likely shoot your aircraft before you can initiate any attack on them. This can be avoided to some extent via recon platforms "pre-detecting" the mobiles - unfortunately, the recon platforms are just as susceptible to getting well into AA range (and getting shot down) before detecting the mobiles... thus, you need to have the attackers very close behind the recons, so when the recons get downed, the attackers will still be close enough to hit the mobile target before its detection "expires". This can involve a nightmare of micro-management of coordination between the recon and attacking groups.

 

Nobody said SEAD was easy. But it isn't as difficult as you describe. Good ESM and surface search radar will permit a player to pick apart an air defense system, assuming he has the weapons available.

Second, with radar off, any mobile AD units that are attached to the base will remain undetected until you get into visual range of them, and will likely shoot your aircraft before you can initiate any attack on them. This can be avoided to some extent via recon platforms "pre-detecting" the mobiles - unfortunately, the recon platforms are just as susceptible to getting well into AA range (and getting shot down) before detecting the mobiles... thus, you need to have the attackers very close behind the recons, so when the recons get downed, the attackers will still be close enough to hit the mobile target before its detection "expires". This can involve a nightmare of micro-management of coordination between the recon and attacking groups.

 

Nobody said SEAD was easy. But it isn't as difficult as you describe. Good ESM and surface search radar will permit a player to pick apart an air defense system, assuming he has the weapons available.

 

The only unavoidable problem that I run into in dealing with AD is that there is no way to detect some of attached mobile units other than literally flying an air group directly over them - which is essentially a suicide mission for that air group. Some of these mobiles I have tried searching for with all available forms of surface search air radars, and ESM platforms, and from all altitudes and distances without success, and find that the only way to detect them is visually at short range (at which point, they already have my observing air group pegged).

The only unavoidable problem that I run into in dealing with AD is that there is no way to detect some of attached mobile units other than literally flying an air group directly over them - which is essentially a suicide mission for that air group. Some of these mobiles I have tried searching for with all available forms of surface search air radars, and ESM platforms, and from all altitudes and distances without success, and find that the only way to detect them is visually at short range (at which point, they already have my observing air group pegged).

 

 

That's interesting. I have to say that in my experience, you can tag them all eventually. Sometimes, as in the Sov bases in the big Cold War scenario in WestPac, it requires a great deal of patient observation and provocation with cruise missile strikes, and heavy use of your ECM platforms to keep the long range SAMs off your back while you look, AND constant fighter sweeps to suppress the Red ECM platforms, but it CAN be done, at least by me.

The only unavoidable problem that I run into in dealing with AD is that there is no way to detect some of attached mobile units other than literally flying an air group directly over them - which is essentially a suicide mission for that air group. Some of these mobiles I have tried searching for with all available forms of surface search air radars, and ESM platforms, and from all altitudes and distances without success, and find that the only way to detect them is visually at short range (at which point, they already have my observing air group pegged).

 

 

That's interesting. I have to say that in my experience, you can tag them all eventually. Sometimes, as in the Sov bases in the big Cold War scenario in WestPac, it requires a great deal of patient observation and provocation with cruise missile strikes, and heavy use of your ECM platforms to keep the long range SAMs off your back while you look, AND constant fighter sweeps to suppress the Red ECM platforms, but it CAN be done, at least by me.

 

 

Oh, I'm not saying they are unkillable (no problems in that respect )... it's just that it can be very costly just to detect them - even after I've already knocked off any long-range AD that was around. As soon as those particular mobiles show up, they're already in the process of knocking off the detecting air group - assuming they didn't kill the air group even before the air group saw them. (Sometimes the only process of "detection" is that an air group spontaneously blows up over a certain spot... then I send in a recon over the same area in hopes of getting a detection, and that blows up in the same area. This is repeated iteratively perhaps several times before the mobile shows up, at which point I send in some groud attack that I've staged nearby, in hopes it can hit the target before the contact disappears. This process tends to chew up planes rather quickly.

 

Fortunately, this is not a prevalant situation; usually, the attached units show up via some sort of recon, without me needing to resort to this sort of search... but every so often, one of these "lurkers" turns up, and is invariably costly - especially if the first group to stumble over it happens to be the major strike package - in which case, it'll take out a whole bunch of the planes in short order.

Warhorse has provided a good general description in this thread of how to attack ground defences. Brad has given a brief description in this thread. If you want to read a highly detailed description of the procedure, read my "Thanh Hoa Bridge" AAR in the Matrix forum. Bear in mind that, in that scenario, even though the US has limited stand-off weapons, they can outrange the enemy units in almost all cases.

 

Regarding range and altitude:

 

First, you should locate the air defences. There are techniques that keep your aircraft alive. Then you should analyze the defences. Then you should pick off whatever you can safely. Proper iteration of this sequence may allow you to wipe out the whole structure safely. And although nobody ever thinks of (jet) airplanes as creeping, I am going to say it like this: creep your airplanes in as slowly as necessary. Some air defences have altitude limitations. Exploit them!

First, you should locate the air defences. There are techniques that keep your aircraft alive. Then you should analyze the defences. Then you should pick off whatever you can safely. ...

 

Yes, safely locating certain of the attached enemy units is the only issue that I have trouble with (and possibly that detectability problem is related to the "selective" detection issues that I run into with air and missile groups, who knows - point being, that perhaps it's an anomaly that affects only my installation of the game and therefore is irrelevent beyond that scope).

 

In any case, I'd love to hear the techniques of keeping my attacking air groups alive! (I'm sure those pilots would be particularly interested, because I'm starting to see signs of mutiny when I order attacks on defended bases! )

First, you should locate the air defences. There are techniques that keep your aircraft alive. Then you should analyze the defences. Then you should pick off whatever you can safely. ...

 

Yes, safely locating certain of the attached enemy units is the only issue that I have trouble with (and possibly that detectability problem is related to the "selective" detection issues that I run into with air and missile groups, who knows - point being, that perhaps it's an anomaly that affects only my installation of the game and therefore is irrelevent beyond that scope).

 

In any case, I'd love to hear the techniques of keeping my attacking air groups alive! (I'm sure those pilots would be particularly interested, because I'm starting to see signs of mutiny when I order attacks on defended bases! )

 

Joe, one thing you could try doing is running through the Thanh Hoa Bridge scenario along the lines of my AAR:

 

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2104380

 

If you do the same things I did, then you should get close to the same results.

 

As I stated repeatedly in that report, my main priority was keeping my guys alive.